Time To Speak Up?

[Shelley_c]

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

maybe you should leave responses to the admins or customer service staff members.

and shelly, you have cool emoticons... was looking through them the other day.. nice job. they should add install buttons to those as well.

I'll disagree with you EasyTarget for the simple fact that there's simply not enough graphics in the graphics area that warrants an install button. Being the dense person that I am, Am I mistaken that the install button functionality is to allow you to see how many people are using that graphic or hack? In anycase, If that's the case, the attachment count does this already. Again, I'm a little dementiarized so I'm probably very much wrong.

[Corriewf]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

They haven't even finished setting up permissions yet or finished filling the teams. There has been nothing to really report. Why announce things before they are ready? A million posts requesting more information won't get it. Not even two weeks have gone by since the announcement of the new staff structure. Certainly that is not an unreasonable amount of time to start building teams. It requires reviewing potential members, talking with them and setting things up.

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The next part is GENERAL. It isn't directed to one person in particular, just to make that clear. Those causing the problems know who they are and they will know when they read it.

The ongoing behavior on this site suggest otherwise. It seems that all some people want to do is destroy this site and vBulletin and will do everything in your power to do so. You log into chatrooms and attack Jelsoft employees for fun. You do the same to the staff here for your own whims. From now on, it will result in bans. It is stated in the rules, whether you read them or not. The staff have been very lenient but now they are backed into a corner. All this does is contribute to a negative situation which people say they want to resolve. It isn't helping. All it does it make people defensive and quite literally develop a great dislike if not hatred for the people causing the problems. No one here wants to ban people. We truly don't. However if that is what it comes to then it must. People simply can't expect their hundredth warning and a slap on the wrist.

Quite frankly, everytime people cause this crap I have to think hard on whether it would be simply easier to delete the whole site and start from scratch or simply allow commercial addons without the need for this site. However people do rely on the site for their own forums and it is a great resource. People need to stop causing problems simply to do so. It doesn't help anyone in the long run.

Really, you want the staff to be more forthcoming instead of armed to the teeth and sitting in their foxhole, then you need to extend a branch and drop the stupid schoolyard antics and petty fights. It is as simple as that. Sarcastic quips hurt and they are attacks and they should not be tolerated. Don't you remember what your parents taught you? It is probably the most important thing they taught you in your life...

TREAT OTHERS HOW YOU WISH TO BE TREATED.

Want to be treated badly then treat others badly. That is how it works. Want people to accept you and treat you with respect, then do so as well. The last few weeks on this site many have not had any respect but think they deserve it in return. It isn't going to happen. You will be treated like what you are, a spoiled customer who is more trouble than worth.

This isn't the way it has to be and you know it. You want change on the forums, the start it. Want to be treated differently, then start treating others differently. Bring what you want to the table and it will spread.

Ok, now that I have had a good nights sleep and some more introspective thoughts. I have had some time to further analyze the thought process of those whom hold the seats of power in regards of changes here.

There are several aspects of mentality displayed here that make obvious how vital a change really is. I feel like there has been this ever growing "us vs them" mentallity through the years that grows larger and larger as the member base grows larger and larger. I am not pointing fingers, I am making an observation. Maybe when dealing with large masses of people that seem to be asking something from you day in and day out after a while you feel exhausted or burned out, I dunno, that is a theory. But alas there is no one trying to bring down vbulletin.org. If we were, there are way more productive means to do, like starting our own site or utilizing an existing site instead of this one.

Something that has frustrated me is that the only change thus far ( or at least largest change made obvious to members ) is new staff. Now I agree that the site needed it, however I don't think it was a top priority. At the end of the day, there really are not that many members breaking rules around here. The worst offenses are normally something small like posting in the wrong forums, but nothing to warrant making it first on the agenda. I do however agree with whom has been chosen thus far. They are good people. I can't say anything bad about any of them.

Another complex here that seems to trouble me is the " ok kids be a good boy/girl and you will get dessert " response we get. Now I can understand the emphasis in regard to people respecting each other, but do we really have that many people here attacking each other? Or staff for that matter? Maybe my standards of respect is lower then those in power here, but other then the minor bickering here and there, in my eyes we seem to get along well, besides the frustration of lack of communication at times.

My thoughts still have not changed since I posted my first thread. I feel that this site has been thrusted into a business like environment and now the shareholders (contributors) are asking for an update from the executives, ceo,cfo,etc. No one is demanding change right now. We just want to be kept in the loop, to be communicated with, and really, is it that much to ask for. Why, I know that at this hour right now there are probably coders in mutiple countries working hard for hours on coding something just to release it here, maybe today, maybe tomorrow. I think that alone warrants a little time set aside to post a thread *progress update* followed *Ok, heres whats going on thus far.*Even if there is no progress to update us on, just letting us know that it's still on everyone's mind and people are working on it, is sufficient for most of us here.

[Tim Skellett]

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

... If the problem lies at the top then changing the middle will have little effect.

Does the actual "problem" under discussion lie at the top? I happen to doubt it.

[Gio~Logist]

Originally Posted by Tim Skellett

Does the actual "problem" under discussion lie at the top? I happen to doubt it.

It is good that you are stating your opinion. However, why not mention the problem that you think does lie on the top?

Originally Posted by Shelley_c

I'll disagree with you EasyTarget for the simple fact that there's simply not enough graphics in the graphics area that warrants an install button. Being the dense person that I am, Am I mistaken that the install button functionality is to allow you to see how many people are using that graphic or hack? In anycase, If that's the case, the attachment count does this already. Again, I'm a little dementiarized so I'm probably very much wrong.

For a graphic, people may just look at it because it's to small in the thumbnail, adding to the attachment count. The install button is if people actually use the work you created.

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

I'm just hoping that the separation of the staff into distinct groups was for a reason, but yes, you've shown that you no doubt can reply.

Yes, that's what we are all hoping at the moment.

Originally Posted by peterska2

easytarget, i am still a member of staff and so can reply like any other staff member

Peter - I agree that you are part of the staff and therefore should be able to post just like any other staff member, but your views on the subject aren't to promising - at least not for me. Don't get me wrong, you are a great person and i have no problem with you (you are one of the only women here, and the testosterone level can be to overwhelming.). But i've found that your views are more or less along the lines of "Coders come and go, if you leave then more will come. Bye Bye". I can't say i agree with that to much.

[bairy]

Originally Posted by gio~logist

But i've found that your views are more or less along the lines of "Coders come and go, if you leave then more will come. Bye Bye". I can't say i agree with that to much.

In raw terms that's true isn't it? Coders, like members, do come and go, and all you can really say is "thanks for all your contributions, bye". It's the same across all community based websites.
Saying something like that isn't necessarily saying "and I don't care about them cos there will always be someone to keep this site going", or dismissing them as being instantly replacable robots, it's merely stating what I would as being a valid point.

[Gio~Logist]

Originally Posted by bairy

In raw terms that's true isn't it? Coders, like members, do come and go, and all you can really say is "thanks for all your contributions, bye". It's the same across all community based websites.
Saying something like that isn't necessarily saying "and I don't care about them cos there will always be someone to keep this site going", or dismissing them as being instantly replacable robots, it's merely stating what I see as a valid point.

Actually, it's not the same at all. Even in a community website, i do not have the same views. If a member is leaving one of my websites, i'd like to know why. Once i find the problem, i would try and solve it in order to prevent the re-occurrence of this event due to that problem.

Members on sites do come and go. If it's a problem that makes them come and go, most will go and then those who come will also soon go. The ratio will soon decrease.

If a coder or designer on this site goes, more than just him goes. His support for hacks, his contribution to the site, etc. all goes. Every time one leaves, the community "economy (if you will)" drops just a bit as well, even if it's less than a %. So far there have been more leaving than coming. Those that would come see things like this and decide not to come. Even people who have thought about buying another vb license have not because of events like this.

You do the math, is it really a cycle.. or is it becoming an epidemic?

[MJM]

Plugins was one of the best things Jelsoft did for this site because it made it so much easier for incompetents like me to utlilze the mods that coders have provided, of which I am very grateful. Without them, I would not have the same admiration of this product.

I don't think (?) Jelsoft has used the plugin system (yet) to provide accessory mods/functions/features so I'm curious to see where this will go.

I have very few mods installed but have read comments in the 3.6 beta discussion forum ... such as ... "great! one more hack I won't need to use"

So in this respect I'm hopeful to see a strong forging of relationships between the coders who incept the idea and demonstrate popularity of the mod from # of installs. This is a valuable tool for Jelsoft in determining what it's customers want.

Mark

[soniceffect]

Sorry but ..... hehe .. this post is hilarious LOL

One day people will realise just how much you are repeating yourselfs continuously and quit doing so. Personally I would like to post my opinions as a 'non staff' member, a 'non coding' member, just a general member reading these posts.

In my opinion there is nothing more happening here than impatience.... When there is going to be a change, people can, and will get impatient. When we were awaiting 3.5 there was the same thing, all be it in a contructive manner, but there was still a post every 20 seconds with someone saying when is the next beta, when is gold etc etc etc.

One of these days people will realise that in the end, the only people who can change a bulletin board of any kind, regardless of who are staff and who are not, are the members. The people who are on here day in a day out. If ya got members +++++in permanantly, you`ll have a +++++ of a board. If ya got members havin a laugh, you`ll have a laugh of a board, if ya got people being serious all the time, you`ll have a serious board. In aint a hard conclusion really is it????

Given that I'm actually supprised that these kind of discussions can come from forum where there are more people that know how bulletin boards work, than know how to cook there own lunch. Before you post, why not think to yourself ...'Is this really helping, or am I making it worse?' ...

[Gio~Logist]

Originally Posted by soniceffect

Sorry but ..... hehe .. this post is hilarious LOL

One day people will realise just how much you are repeating yourselfs continuously and quit doing so. Personally I would like to post my opinions as a 'non staff' member, a 'non coding' member, just a general member reading these posts.

In my opinion there is nothing more happening here than impatience.... When there is going to be a change, people can, and will get impatient. When we were awaiting 3.5 there was the same thing, all be it in a contructive manner, but there was still a post every 20 seconds with someone saying when is the next beta, when is gold etc etc etc.

One of these days people will realise that in the end, the only people who can change a bulletin board of any kind, regardless of who are staff and who are not, are the members. The people who are on here day in a day out. If ya got members +++++in permanantly, you`ll have a +++++ of a board. If ya got members havin a laugh, you`ll have a laugh of a board, if ya got people being serious all the time, you`ll have a serious board. In aint a hard conclusion really is it????

Given that I'm actually supprised that these kind of discussions can come from forum where there are more people that know how bulletin boards work, than know how to cook there own lunch. Before you post, why not think to yourself ...'Is this really helping, or am I making it worse?' ...

Your post is appreciated and your opinion is as well. We all know how a site in general works, but we also know a lot more about this site and what's been going on than others.. which is why out patience is very limited now. You may know about what you see in threads and such. However, we go based on everything that goes on here as well as everything we find out off of the site.

[soniceffect]

However, we go based on everything that goes on here as well as everything we find out off of the site.

This is however a conversation about the site. If it`s about things off the site, is it not better to keep it off the site.

member element:- There are members on here (myself included) who do not know, or care for that matter about the off site politics behind it all. Every single one of you posting agrees one with one thing, you all want the site to work and be a good one. So....

Site element:- All people are doing by having slangin matches on the forums, and contributing to the problem.

Coding element:- I may not be a coder on here, however I do code and I appreciate that people want respect, commercial sections, recognition, security guarantee and all the rest, however people leaving, +++++ing, and most of all giving the staff less time to sort the problems through having to reply to petty posts on the forums if not gonna achieve anything at all.

In short .. will you all stop arguing for god sake.