Where vB is going wrong

[gothicuser]

Originally Posted by Clayton

great I know exactly where that is .. Chruchtown, Mallow in Cork Eire and strangely enogh about 1mile away from where my folks stay :lick:

small world

and it just goes to show how helpful the forums are

And less than a mile from where I was born and dragged up..

[Clayton]

Originally Posted by gothicuser

And less than a mile from where I was born and dragged up..

Liscarrol ???



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some good points pcoskat

often people forget how easy it is to simply be courteous

New users however could also take a few tips and search first and if they not successful mention in their post that they have tried and would now like assistance. In the same way people being helped could also be a little more thankful so that it encourages a better community spirit of 'help'

C

[Tyegurl]

i agree myself...whats that the golden rule lmfao.......but very true. treat others the way you want to be treated cuz one day you might find yourself in need of their assistance.

[pcoskat]

Originally Posted by Clayton

New users however could also take a few tips and search first and if they not successful mention in their post that they have tried and would now like assistance.

I don't think that's needed, especially since it's just to soothe the 'old timer' souls...

Most newbies aren't posting a question that's been asked before out of spite.

That's why it's silly for members to repond with venom or post 'shouts' in their sigs.

If it's THAT much of a problem, start a Newbie Forum (that's what I did at my site.)

In it, we have TONS of stickies with info on how to navigate the site, links to FAQ's, and site manners.

It STILL doesn't stop the newbie FAQ's, but now the mods and other members can just respond with 'see this post'.

Originally Posted by Michelle

EXACTLY!!!
It really gets on my nerves to see a forum admin that doesn't know how to upload a file or some basic HTML. How do they expect to succeed then??

^This^ post is a perfect example of 'unfriendly' - not to mention, it also demonstrates a gross understanding of why/how some people acquire vB licenses...AND what it takes to be a so-called 'success'.

A good CEO(admin) doesn't handle everything in their company, nor do they need to know how to do it. Among other things, they need to know where the smart, proficient, and courteous experts are.

I run a farily large forum, and I don't know how to upload files - nor do I plan on learning. My focus is on the content and overall experience for the end user.

While some people who have responded to this thread call themselves master coders, their level of business savvy and maturity is lacking.

Come to think of it, what would be GREAT is if someone would launch a site for vB professionals...

It would have:

- A directory of professional mod coders for hire*
- A directory of professional skin coders for hire*
- A directory of professional admin help (for things like back ups, and optimization)*
- A directory of professional skin designers*
- A well-orgzanized directory of mods/add-ons

I'd start it myself, but I don't know enough professionals in these areas. That said, I'd be a frequent customer...I ALWAYS need service providers.

*No, I don't want to use 'rent a coder' for these services. I'm speaking of a service that only caters to vBulletin users & service providers.

Originally Posted by Andreas

I don't want to sound arrogant, but:

Users who post questions are licensed Jelsoft customers. This means they are forum admins. At least I expect that a forum admin does know the basics of forum software - and searching is a basic function.
Also, I would think that total newbies don't come to vBulletin.org - they go to vBulletin.com.
Theoretically, only "advanced users" who need/want more than the standard functionality of vBulletin would come to vBulletin.org.

It didn't sound arrogant. Just misguided about the user base of the vBulletin application.

Stick to coding.

ETA
(Oh, geez...now I'm starting to get cranky, too )

[peterska2]

Another $0.02 from me here (I told you this thread was getting expensive)

I've not been around for a bit, and on easing myself back in again I have noticed that a few of the regulars have disappeared. Is this co-incidence?

BTW, it is nice to see 3.5.4 here now, but I was quite happy with 3.0.7 too, so that really wasn't worth all the complaining because the upgrade didn't happen overnight.

IMO, there are problems here simply because there are people who have been using vB that long that they have completely forgotton what it is like to be a newbie.

It is great that there are people who can rattle off code mods and plugins really fast because they are that comfortable with the code and have used it that long that they know every single function practically off by heart.

It's great that designers are finally recognised, but, speaking soley for myself, writing any code based stuff at all can take hours - if not weeks. Why? Because designing generally doesn't involve touching the php code. Saying that though, I can help where it's something within my knowledge.

With any site that has been around a while, there are always the ones who know the ins and outs of everything to do with it (including modifying it here), but there has to be the new users. This is where a lot of understanding and patience has to come in from the 'old-timers'. Getting frustrated because someone isn't sure what someting means doesn't help, it just causes bad feelings.

It's the bad feelings that are getting to me. Over the last couple of months I have actually considered on numerous occassions removing all my mods from here. I've not been in a position to support them, and have had loads of PM's and emails asking for help with them. Despite putting a notice in my sig and unchecking the supported boxes everywhere, the questions are still coming in. I write my mods then quite often get someone else to have a go at installing them on my test board. I get someone who knows nothing at all about vB to install them simply by following the instructions I give in the install file. I'll help with things like finding the style manager and how to get into the template to edit it, but apart from that I leave them to it. If they can install it, then it's suitable for release.

Generally speaking, I have lots of patience and will help anyone I can. If it's a php question that's been unanswered a while, I'll have a go. I always say that I'm not strong in php and that my solution may not work, but I try. Often someone else then comes along and i my solution is incorrect they will post a correct one. I don't get offended by this, I try and learn something new from it.

One thing that I notice more and more, is that if I ask a question I get answered with things like 'you should know that' and 'search for it'. Now being as I am always answering other peoples questions using search and 9/10 times know the exact terms to search by, I can find this quite insulting. I never profess to being a php coder, so when my questions are php related, I should be able to get an answer and not a page of insults.

I've got to the point where it is quicker and easier to get one of my site staff who is linked with my licence to ask the question for me even though they don't have a clue what they are actually asking. It really is a bad state of affairs when it gets to that stage.

I'm in the limbo period at the moment where support for any of my stuff is practically non existant as I will be moving the support elsewhere simply because I don't apprecaite being told that my work isn't good enough. If it wasn't liked, no-one would have installed it so I wouldn't have wrote anything else. I'm all for feedback, and appreciate constructive criticism, but ripping into someone and giveing a load of abuse is completely unprofessional.

Thats my $0.02 (even if it has taken an hour to do it coz the phone keeps ringing) and hopefully my last words on the subject.

At the end of the day, we are nearly all admins, and we all started out not knowing anything at all. Some people don't even know HTML when they
first start out. I was one of these people. This isn't anyones fault, it's just that people know different things and learn others as they go along.

[Clayton]

Originally Posted by pcoskat

I don't think that's needed, especially since it's just to soothe the 'old timer' souls...I don't think that's needed, especially since it's just to soothe the 'old timer' souls...

Most newbies aren't posting a question that's been asked before out of spite.

I have to disagree .. there may be a clique that forms where 'old timer' souls might occur .. however often you get the impression that some 'newbies' want everything on a plate ... it is almost expected

No one is being paid to assist people and therefore it wouldn't hurt for newbies to exercise a little self help.

Courteous behaviour from both sides goes a long way

and yes .. some people in this thread have certainly shown a great deal of how it shouldn't be done.

I still think vB.org is a helpful site, it can be quite daunting however it is also an asset to any prospective forum admin

#1 tip ... before you start use the search

I run and maintain a few forums and my experience comes from assisting others to run their own forums and often when they start off they want it to be all given on a plate. We set-up practise forums and throw them in on the deep end .. when they ask a question we say go to vB.org or vB.com and use search for your answer ... or simply provide a link to the vB.org or vB.com thread which I would get by using SEARCH

almost everything has been hashed up at least once on these forums .. if you cant find it in search then ask .. becoming self reliant is a bliss

Thanks

C
ps.. by the way I am still a long long way from being self reliant .. so I still need to use the search

[pcoskat]

Originally Posted by Clayton

I have to disagree .. there may be a clique that forms where 'old timer' souls might occur .. however often you get the impression that some 'newbies' want everything on a plate ... it is almost expected

No one is being paid to assist people and therefore it wouldn't hurt for newbies to exercise a little self help.

Courteous behaviour from both sides goes a long way

I guess you're right if you feel that every time someone neglects to put the obligatory 'yes I've used the search', that they are not being courteous. *shrugs*

I agree that some people want things handed to them, but I still feel that most newbies aren't trying to be discourteous (as you suggest.) I would also go a step further and say that it's this jaded view of newbies which is adding to the 'bad air' around here.

What would be more helpful for everyone is if people could stop whining about the 'problem of the newbies' and the 'know nothings', and offer some REALISTIC and CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions as to how the admins of this site could rectify the problems.

Asking newbies to put 'yes i used the search' is an 'idealistic' suggestion that doesn't constructively address the problems/issues facing this or any other large site.

I know exactly where the search function is, and how to use it...sometimes I can't FIND what I'm looking for, and I get tired reading 'search result' posts from other people asking the same question with responses that say: use the search function.

[Clayton]

semantics pcoskat

and I think that you are now showing the arrogance others have displayed in this thread.

I shant further indulge your ego in the matter

Thank you

C

[pcoskat]

Originally Posted by Clayton

semantics pcoskat

and I think that you are now showing the arrogance others have displayed in this thread.

I shant further indulge your ego in the matter

Thank you

C

*shrugs* whatever.

Originally Posted by Tyegurl

don't be cautious lol ask for help when needed and where needed. what's the worst that can happen? you get ignored or you get told off right? no big deal to me! i just shrug it off and continue searching and hoping someone can help me eventually.

You are correct.

Despite the youth, immaturity, and anger management issues of a handful of 'regulars', there is still good information to be had here, and vB.org is still a helpful and unique resource.

...still would be great if there were a professional directory, however, for those who just want to pay for help. (Not all of us are newbies who want everything handed to us on a plate. Some admins actually have a budget, and are looking to hire.)

[peterska2]

Originally Posted by pcoskat

...still would be great if there were a professional directory, however, for those who just want to pay for help. (Not all of us are newbies who want everything handed to us on a plate. We have a budget, and are looking to hire.)

There was a discussion about this in January, but the outcome still hasn't been announced.