Angry .Orgers

[Damian]

This seems to be a discussion amongst coders for the benefit of coders so I am going to stay out of it but I did want to post something to the coders from a consumer standpoint.
I don't expect anything for free. I can only imagine the time some of you take to create your hacks and additions, plus reading some of the responses you get in your support threads leaves me shaking my head in disbelief sometimes.

I love it when you guys that offer paid hacks release nice little hacks and even major additions for free here at vb.org. It gives me chance to see and evaluate your product. Some examples of this are:

I installed vBadvanced CMS, when it came time for me to purchase a Gallery, the first place I went was of course vBadvanced. Price had nothing to do with it.
I recently installed Geek Gallery Popup 4.0 and it works flawless. Now that I will be needing a new article system for 3.5.1 I am fairly certain I will be purchasing GARS from The Geek once it is out of beta.

If cinq, another coder who I hold in high regard, was to offer his glossary for free, I would visit his site. If I found that he had an article system for sale as well, it might make my choice even harder to make as for which one to buy.

These free add-ons can bring people to your sites for additional purchases. All the great vb coders that I know about I have heard about them here at vb.org. Either by using one of their releases or just hearing about them around this site.
I have no use for any kind of directory for paid add-ons.
I am sure there are plenty of people that would have an interest in this but I am a firm believer in word of mouth advertising. Everything I need to know I can learn here at vb.org

Thanks again.

[MPDev]

If nothing else, I think this threads proves that if it were an option there are people who would find it useful.

[cinq]

Originally Posted by MPDev

You know, instead of another forum a simple hotscripts.com for vB add-ons (free or not) would be benefitial. With a rating/comment system in place you can forgo the whole vB.org duplication and just provide a nice resource index to add-ons for vBulletin.

That's actually my whole purpose of doing up a Resource Directory on my site (rating and comments coming soon), because frankly, judging from the way this thread is, I seriously doubt there will be an outcome here on .org that would satisfy both sides.

On another note, whatever modifications I release will NOT be paid ones.

[Lycan]

Originally Posted by MPDev

If nothing else, I think this threads proves that if it were an option there are people who would find it useful.

Yes but when you get right down to it that sort of thinking works for those of us that would rather keep this site what ive read it was started for...a Free resource for vB'ers in that it also proves that there are people who would find it problematic to put it nicely

[Lottis]

MPDEV; You point out that there are plenty of free forums with add ons.
The reason i picked vBullitin is because this is fore me the moste secure product.
And with all the good hacks and addons here, this is what i wanted.

I run a non commersial site, with a small group of ladies.
Witch i know there is a lot of in my country. This is a group with not the most money on the side.
We do this fore fun and to satisfie our members, not to put a lot of money in it.
If i cant use vBullitin, i will not keep this forum.
If i want to bye a hack, there is money i have to save fore sometime.

I hope you make a poll on this, because i dont think the majoritet here has a LOT of money to spend on this.

[The Geek]

Originally Posted by Boofo

I don't need to chill, you do. You try to come across as this kind, caring individual that wants to give so much to the org when in reality, you are looking to make money off of it. No matter how you color it, you belittle those that don't write major hacks, either because they don't have the knowledge and skill yet, or because they are new and haven't had enough time to do something of that caliber. There are those hear that DO some major hacks and they are still releasing them for free. Andreas and the Journal Hack comes to mind.

And it seems that there are more against the idea of this thread than are for it. That should tell you something.

Thanks Boofo - I come across as kind and caring because I am while I feel you come across as a grumpy cynical curmudgeon which you are. Now enough of the name calling lets get some facts straight.

I gave (and continue give) to .org because I love to code and even more love to know I have helped someone get a bit more from their site. If you count up my time I have given here in FOC work and time spent supporting that code, it could rival the time that some of the Mods around here spend on the site. That isn't a nod at mods, thats to try and say that I have (and continue to do so) given a lot of time around than a lot of other contributors in the past year (which you seem to forget).

Furthermore, your accusation that all I am trying to do is make money off .org is about as off mark as you can get. I make very good money in my full time job which has always allowed me to give away my free time for free. Now however all I ask is that if you chose to take advantage of that time - you pitch a bit in. I charge piss all for my work and therefore I make next to nothing for it and I plan to keep it that way. In fact, I have given over 50% of what I have grossed so far into sponsoring OTHER vb resource sites because I felt it was giving back to the community. If the .10p an hour is me being greedy then call me Uncle Scrooge.

I have never belittled anyone that has given time to the community - in fact I started this thread because your 'loving, caring, supportive community' was belittling each other without so much of a word from you. What I have tried to do in the continuing discussion is to put things in perspective which you continuously distort. Since your mission seems only to paint me as some mean, greedy leech it suits your purpose quite well however it really makes me question the meaning of the word 'moderator'.

Regardless I am well past caring how you try to muddy the discussion (and facts), from what I have witnessed here, there is a actually a very loud voice for those that would find benefit for a way to become more informed about commercial systems.

I suggested a poll awhile back - why not run it? Lets see how many of those that do give to the community actually vote that they are totally against being informed of commercial solutions (unlikely). Rather lets see how many non givers are totally against the imaginary threat of losing their 'endless well of free work' (which is as paranoid as it is implausible). The reality is that most are at worse apathetic to it, but in all reality they feel it may be of some benefit. Only those with over active imaginations think that everyone will stop making FOC work.

See, there seems to be this fear that if there is an avenue for commercial information that suddenly everyone is going to charge for their work. The theme seems to be 'ignorance will keep them working for nothing'. That isn't very community spirit. I would think we would encourage those that have put in the effort to grow to a point where they can be commercially rewarded for all their hard work - not kept in the dark so you can continue to get free stuff off of them.

People also seem to forget 1 key aspect of providing commercial information here: You don't have to view it. You don't have to buy it. You can pretend its not even there. Therefore it doesn't even affect you so why be so hell bent for leather in order to take the option from those that want it?

Lets face it, this thread was started in response to how .orgs community spirit is (and there is no commercial info section here now!). Maybe with the introduction of a commercial information section of the site - those that download free work will be that much more appreciative to those that give their time for free.

Regardless, its time we all move forward - we all keep bantering back and forth and now its turned into a discussion with mostly the same people arguing their viewpoints and the only constructive proposals seem to be those who are interested in exploring additional avenues.

Just do the poll, lets see the results and lets then put the results in perspective. Then you can stick it to me and say I told you so (which I am sure you will do in a number of ways). Would be interesting if you made it so the participants were those that has released at least 1 modification here - but then I'm sure that wouldn't work would it?

[Boofo]

You're right. I retract everything and apologize.

[MPDev]

I think an informal poll is a good idea - for no other reason than it would stop this petty debate over weather anyone would actually use it.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=100721

[trackpads]

Originally Posted by The Geek

Haven't been about as much lately since the whole "you are evil because you are going commercial" threads kicked off a few months ago.

I popped in today and was browsing about appalled to see the same mentality and anger toward people who decide that their time and investment should be met with something equal from the people who benefit from it.

In other words - a lot of angry .orgers with a mob mentality toward anything remotely commercial (although ironic that vB isn't lumped into this).

What is up? Sure, OK, .orgers rules: hear no commercial, see no commercial, speak no commercial - however I think its ridiculous to get all agro because someone who released something free then decides that its not worth his time continuing the process unless he gets something out of it. The funniest thing is that most agro/bullying in these situations come from people who do not contribute to .org, they are just users.

Please guys, not everyone can be devoted to code the hours of a part time job for you for free. Cut some people some slack otherwise you are going to have less and less talent here and more and more unfinished or half assed projects. It is true on many levels that you generally get what you pay for

On a similar note, it was discussed at some length ways to provide avenues for commercial and free scripts here. I'm not wanting to stir that up again - however this was awhile ago. Any further progress? I guess your priority is to upgrade to 3.5X first.

Really odd to see the 'ultimate (but only if its free) resource for vB' be on an outdated version. Kind of like going to a MS convention watching them demo on Windows 98 boxes (what kind of message does that send customers!)

Anyhooo - cant we all get along. There is a hell of a lot more in the world to get uptight about than 'hey, this guy was secretly planning on holding the world to ransom when his script came out of beta! He OWES US a final!' - many times people dont plan things that way - life somtimes just changes things.

(let the flames begin :tired: )

My personal opinion is that if I pay, I am pretty sure I get to complain if it doesnt work and I paid for it. If I use a free hack and I still end up donating in most cases to support the causes. I appreciate all the work here on the site, without it I would have just another purple forum with really neat smilies

[EasyTarget]

Originally Posted by The Geek

from what I have witnessed here, there is a actually a very loud voice for those that would find benefit for a way to become more informed about commercial systems.

There's a difference between a loud voice and a majority voice. Usually the majority feels safe and thus they are quiet because they always expect someone else will participate for them, so their voice is represented by a small fraction of the actual group. But just like everything else in life the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

And unless the poll becomes something that every member has to vote on before they can continue at the site then I don't see it ever providing a good estimation of what all members of the community really feel.

I also think if you want to get more support you're going to have to spell things out a little more specifically so its not just this vague concept of commercial hacks.

What do you want .org to do? How should they moderate commercial hacks? should any hack be allowed to be released commercially here? Is there some way to set pricing standards? Should the sales be done here on this site? Should .org get a piece of the pie? Should coders be allowed to charge for sale of the code and support? What do you do if a hack has vulnerabilities and bugs? What do you do if the coder won't address the vulnerabilities/bugs? If .org handles the money, should they keep it for a specified amount of time to ensure support/fixes? How do you handle unsatisfied customers, customers that didn't get from the hack what they expected? are there refunds? What if one hack is incompatible with another hack? People paying for hacks are going to expect more in return, both in support and in performance/quality, which will increase the amount of time coders must put into the hack, will this be reflected in the pricing? Are coders ready to put that much more time into it (especially when they already have other 'well-paying' jobs)? How will allowing commercial hacks here affect the sales/image of vbulletin overall? Would code which is based on/uses licensed vbulletin code be allowed to be sold? Should there be a separate part of the site for the paid hacks or should they be integrated with the free ones? Should members that want premium hacks pay a monthly or yearly fee and the coders get some of that money based on the installs of their hacks (so long as usage is limited to those paying members)? Should there be a quota to the number of free hacks which a member can download/install before being required to donate something to the 'coders' pot'?

I'm sure there's many other issues to consider, but its really not as simple as should they allow commercial hacks or not. I think the best way to handle this would be to rally the coders together and make your own site. If it seems to be handled well then maybe .org can consider integrating some of the ideas.