Angry .Orgers

[The Geek]

Haven't been about as much lately since the whole "you are evil because you are going commercial" threads kicked off a few months ago.

I popped in today and was browsing about appalled to see the same mentality and anger toward people who decide that their time and investment should be met with something equal from the people who benefit from it.

In other words - a lot of angry .orgers with a mob mentality toward anything remotely commercial (although ironic that vB isn't lumped into this).

What is up? Sure, OK, .orgers rules: hear no commercial, see no commercial, speak no commercial - however I think its ridiculous to get all agro because someone who released something free then decides that its not worth his time continuing the process unless he gets something out of it. The funniest thing is that most agro/bullying in these situations come from people who do not contribute to .org, they are just users.

Please guys, not everyone can be devoted to code the hours of a part time job for you for free. Cut some people some slack otherwise you are going to have less and less talent here and more and more unfinished or half assed projects. It is true on many levels that you generally get what you pay for ;)

On a similar note, it was discussed at some length ways to provide avenues for commercial and free scripts here. I'm not wanting to stir that up again - however this was awhile ago. Any further progress? I guess your priority is to upgrade to 3.5X first.

Really odd to see the 'ultimate (but only if its free) resource for vB' be on an outdated version. Kind of like going to a MS convention watching them demo on Windows 98 boxes (what kind of message does that send customers!) ;)

Anyhooo - cant we all get along. There is a hell of a lot more in the world to get uptight about than 'hey, this guy was secretly planning on holding the world to ransom when his script came out of beta! He OWES US a final!' - many times people dont plan things that way - life somtimes just changes things. :)

(let the flames begin :tired: )

[Boofo]

I don't agree, but to each his own. ;)

If we allow commercial hacks to take over, there won't be very many free ones anymore and the spirit that this site was founded on, will diminish. Once coders see others making a profit, they will decide they can too, then the free hack days will be over.

As far as time and invetsment goes, there have been a lot of great coders here that have mnade extensive hacks in the past that never gave a second thought about trying to making a buck out of it. They shared and learned here for free and felt like giving something back to the community. ;)

Just my 3 1/2 cents worth. ;)

[The Geek]

Well, I dont want to get into the debate over org should allow paid scripts or not since thats about as volatile as Tastes Great vs. Less Filling (and about as easy to resolve). However I will say that I think giving commercial coders a voice will actually bring more quality products to vB. You can only take free ones so far. Just like you could only do something for charity for x hours per week (even if you loved it) you still need to eat!

I also have to say that while some people learn some of their skill coding here - most do not and regardless - they are the ones that learned it. The old 'you owe us because you learned it here' is a messed up :)

And yes, I was one of those that spent a year producing gargantuan macks FOC because I enjoyed it - however life moves on and I had to as well (either go commercial or dont produce anymore at all). It was a hard choice - however one I am glad I made now. No, I dont think ill be buying a new mousemat anytime soon however at least those that are my customers appreciate my time as I do theirs.

Thanks :)

[Boofo]

True, but appreciation doesn't need to have dollar signs attached to it to mean something. ;)

[The Geek]

You are right - then maybe vB should be released on .org for free ;)

Boofo - You do what you do here for FOC (I assume). That benefits the community. However clearly you can not do this full time as you have real life commitments. Moderating here full time at no charge would mean that you would live in a Sony 36" television box next to I-80. I do what I can do FOC for here and that benefits the community. However for me to be able to do MORE then what I do now (and what I have done in the past) means something else must give and that something else is users paying for work that I otherwise would not have been able to produce FOC.

Anyhooo. This is quickly dwindling down the abyss of 'Good guys = hobbyist while bad guys = professionals' which is what I wanted to avoid. The ironic and altruistic idealogy gives me tummy ache.

What I was trying to say is that some Angry .orgers should chill a bit because its hurting The Ultimate Resource for vB.

Thanks ;)

[Boofo]

As a matter of fact, I do moderate here and code almost fill-time now as my real life committments are at a stand-still at present and I don't live in a Sony Box anymore as I have moved up to a Westinghouse Refrigerator box with a lot more room. :p

As far as any angry vb.orgers goes, that won't go away anytime soon, I'm afraid. The issue or making money on hacks on the org is a touchy and sore subject for a lot of people, as we have both seen. There are a lot of coders out there making money from paid hacks that don't use the org to advertise or peddle their wares. I think that is the real issue in all of this. Not so much the paid hacks as using the org to get buyers for them. There has been a few bait and hook schemes going on as of late and it seems to be winding down now, which is good. Maybe now we can get back to the way things used to be and start having fun and learning and sharing again. ;)

[The Geek]

Yea, fair enough. It is a touchy subject on both sides and while I disagree with some of the rules regarding commercial scripts here, I understand and respect the decision. I guess I just feel the need to stand up for people who are suddenly deemed to be evil because they need to actually make something from the work they do. I hate mob mentalities and empathy loss no matter where I see it.

Congrats on the move. Ive been eyeing that model for some time now! :)

[Boofo]

Yea, fair enough. It is a touchy subject on both sides and while I disagree with some of the rules regarding commercial scripts here, I understand and respect the decision. I guess I just feel the need to stand up for people who are suddenly deemed to be evil because they need to actually make something from the work they do. I hate mob mentalities and empathy loss no matter where I see it.

Congrats on the move. Ive been eyeing that model for some time now! :)

As long as debates are around, you'll always have some sort of mob mentality, it can't be avoided. That's what makes debating so interesting, I guess. ;)

And thanks on the congrats. My job here at the org has allowed me to move up in my living conditions. See? There are perks for being on the Staff here. ;)

[Regs]

I said this previously elsewhere - The code for vB has grown up, it would be nice if the community here did as well.

[Guest190829]

I think we are all taking this way to heavily. If a coder decides to offer hacks, wheather it's commercial or not, it is still benefiting vBulletin as a software. vB.org, however, is not the place to distribute commercial modifications; it's that simple. I don't know why this is causing so much debate. If you don't feel like a hack should cost money, then the only option is to code an equal or better modification for free.

The Geek, you are an excellant coder and I appreciate your work on vbulletin. I've used a couple of your paid modifications, and they are great tools.

The Geek should not be judged for making a decision on his code. If he feels like he should be earning money for his hard work, that's his choice.


That's just my personal opinion. :)

[yinyang]

damn, vbulletin.biz is taken otherwise The Geek would hav a new venture... :)

[The Geek]

Thanks Danny,

I didnt mean for this to be about me. I just got a little pissed off when I saw a bunch of users demanding that an author (cant even remember who it was) release his hack FOC. Apparently he decided to charge for it after a lot of development. Then I was catching up on the vbseo thread (say no more!). Then I read some other thread when I just thought 'geez, there are a lot of people around here that expect a lot of work from a lot of people without having to lift a finger.'.

Now, In all fairness, I did not read every post of the first 2 threads so maybe I got a little bothered over nothing... however in my experience around here I think I most likely got the right gist of it.

Though I dont agree that .org should have no mention of anything commercial, its not my site and I support the rules and guidelines. However you have to agree that its a bit of a stretch to call this the ultimate vb resource when it excludes everything except the hobbyist and casual coder. I think its more of a hinderence to Jelsoft to not be able to refer any professionals that buy their product to anywhere except for here. I dont mean any disrespect (ive got loads of stuff here) its just that it can be somewhat of a muddle for people to get exactly what their after and always trust what they are getting. But I degress! Those are just my personal thoughts and not really too relevant to my point.

I just wanted to say 'hey guys, be a little more respectful of those giving their time for nothing and support them in their decisions if they cant continue doing it for the smile it puts on your face'. I for one wish I could continue putting my stuff up for free as I miss the buzz. Heck, I had even asked Erwin at one stage if I could put GARS up here FOC with a preference that support requests were handled on my site because its a nightmare supporting large mods here. Because that goes against rules - I got a big ol No. However now Im actualy quite pleased that it wasnt Ok'ed. I think I would have given up on it with the current 'something for nothing and your chicks for free' mentality.

whew. Think Im over the babbling. I think my points been lost! Anyhooo - just respect the coders!

Thanks all!

[Boofo]

I think we are all taking this way to heavily. If a coder decides to offer hacks, wheather it's commercial or not, it is still benefiting vBulletin as a software. vB.org, however, is not the place to distribute commercial modifications; it's that simple. I don't know why this is causing so much debate. If you don't feel like a hack should cost money, then the only option is to code an equal or better modification for free.

The Geek, you are an excellant coder and I appreciate your work on vbulletin. I've used a couple of your paid modifications, and they are great tools.

The Geek should not be judged for making a decision on his code. If he feels like he should be earning money for his hard work, that's his choice.


That's just my personal opinion. :)

The Geek has not been judged at all in this thread. In fact, he is the one that started it. ;)

[Guest190829]

The Geek has not been judged at all in this thread. In fact, he is the one that started it. ;)

I know, but some people had issues in other threads..

[Boofo]

I know, but some people had issues in other threads..

Which have nothing to do with this thread. ;)

[Guest190829]

Which have nothing to do with this thread. ;)

The issues dealt with commercial hacks which ties in this thread. I don't want to start a silly argument with you Boofo. :D

But The Geek stated he didn't mean for this thread to be about him, so you win this time. ;)

[Talisman]

I know this is a very touchy subject and quite a few people get riled up ... on both sides of the issue. I'd just like to say that most people I know who charge fees for premium styles or hacks *also* contribute or have contributed a very high volume of free advice and support assistance to others here and in other support forums. So they're not ALL evil... lol. And when they charge a small price for us to use an elaborate modification they developed, then I don't mind paying something for all that time and work. I just get real selective about what I'm willing to pay for. When you total up all the expenses it takes to create and sustain the sort of websites we like to have, it adds up to quite a whopping investment.

Even so, there is one thing that bothers me a great deal. And that's when new coders come along ... learn everything they can from very generous people who've shared their knowledge and expertise with others -- for free -- ... but then they won't give anything back to this community unless they can make money from it. That's just not right and that really hurts everyone. Whenever someone benefits directly from experienced volunteers, they really ought to repay that generousity, in kind. Not to the people they learned from, though... but by continuing the cycle and helping to train/develop a new "generation" of coders who are starting out the exact same way.

[Boofo]

Even so, there is one thing that bothers me a great deal. And that's when new coders come along ... learn everything they can from very generous people who've shared their knowledge and expertise with others -- for free -- ... but then they won't give anything back to this community unless they can make money from it. That's just not right and that really hurts everyone. Whenever someone benefits directly from experienced volunteers, they really ought to repay that generousity, in kind. Not to the people they learned from, though... but by continuing the cycle and helping to train/develop a new "generation" of coders who are starting out the exact same way.

And those are the bad apples that have spoiled it for people like The Geek. ;)

[Detomah]

I have a really simple idiology about programming.

If I need a program or piece of code for my site that is beyond my own skill level and someone can provide it, i'll use it. If it's good enough and suits my needs well enough, i'll pay for it.

When I have a bit of code that i've done, I throw it into the community in a hope that someone else can make use of it, my coding aint great but it gets me by and sometimes it's the basic stuff that catches other people out too, so giving my little snippets where I can is my way of returning the favour.

The problem I have, is that I find that when it comes to spending my valuble time helping others in any way I can for free, when it comes to me asking for a bit of help from anyone else for something i've got stuck with, most people simply ignore the request like it is some serious disease, or they damand cash.

[Boofo]

I don't want to start a silly argument with you Boofo. :D


Like you would have a chance of winning one. ;)

But The Geek stated he didn't mean for this thread to be about him, so you win this time. ;)

Naturally. That's the way it is supposed to be. ;)

[AN-net]

boofo is so OLD and wise he is always right

[Boofo]

boofo is so OLD and wise he is always right

And your check is in the mail, youngster. ;)

[amykhar]

I can think of at least one woman Boofo was VERY wrong about. :satan:

Amy

[Boofo]

I can think of at least one woman Boofo was VERY wrong about. :satan:

Amy

Ouch!

And "woman" is a very loose term in this case. Mentality-wise, anyway.

[Zachariah]

I don't see the big deal.
If you want to charge for a product. There should be a % you give up to vb.org in advertisment and traffic they supply you.

Server space, bandwith, maintance all cost cash.

This place is for hacks made by vBulletin owners for free w/ donation link at most last I looked. If your in it for the cash, make your own site and do what you want. Don't cry and moan how someone runs their site, that your a guest of. To me that is moronic to say the least.

But then I see suff in black and white. There is no grey areas.

[Boofo]

Sometimes black and white is a better picture than a messed up color one. ;)

[Paul M]

I don't think many people have a problem with charging for hacks, if it is made clear from the start that something will cost money. What bugs people is when hacks are released for free, and then later, when lots of people are using them, charges start to appear for upgrades/updates.

[jluerken]

There are some smaller hacks where I will never pay for.
On the other hand there are some aeeeeh lets say script that are so huge that this is more than a simple 3 liner hack.

If I want this functionality its up to me to decide if its worth the price or not but I will never blame an author to make a commercial hack out of a free one.
Its very time intensive to write a hack and its more time intensive to support it.

There is only one thing I really hate.

IF I buy a script and support and documentation are bad.
I really hate this. I understand that for free hacks the support can be limited but If I buy a hack I will be treated as customer and I want help if the stuff is not working :D

So everyone who is going to make a free hack a commercial one should do it if he/she can support it also...

[Brad]

We have discussed this in the past and never came to an agreement, at this time the upcoming 3.5 upgrade is taking up a lot of time so there has not been much discussion amoung the staff.

We are keep an eye on this thread so make sure to speak your mind if you feel inclined to do so. I've moved it to site feedback as it relates mainly to vB.org policy.

[edit] Please try to keep this one on topic.

[Chris M]

What irks me, is not having to pay maybe $20 or $30 for a hack like GARS or GAL from The Geek - It's having to pay over $100 for something like vBSEO :ermm:

While I'm sure vBSEO is a very good modification I can't justify that much money for it...

Oh - Any someone else mentioned it - People releasing hacks here for free, and when they become ultra-popular releasing the upgrades as paid versions...

Chris

[amykhar]

I have no problem with people changing their minds about hacks being paid after releasing them for free. The level of support required here can be overwhelming. I have tried checking the beta box, unchecking the supported box, putting things in my sig line and explaining about time limitations till I'm blue in the face. I'm still nagged daily on the board and via PM for added features and help when users foul things up. Heck, they even bug me to support hacks I didn't write and don't even use!

Amy

[The Geek]

Spot on Amy.

I understand why it would be frustrating for some to install a hack that was put here FOC and then down the road the author decides that if you want further updates or releases - it will cost you.

However life has a funny way of doing things like this to you.

You can release something FOC and suddenly it takes over your freaking life. Sure, you want to continue work on it - but you get stuck as all your current time is spent slammed with support requests from people who couldn't be asked to follow the readme or who want help fixing someone else's work! If you have more than a couple popular hacks here on .org - you will find yourself in a free, part time support job. That means little to NO time to develop new, bigger, better additions which in turn equals serious burn out! Thats the key reason I went commercial. I had no time left to develop future additions AND support them for the masses of casual admins. Now I have less users in a more controlled environment that allows me to support and develop without getting an aneurysm doing it.

As for the price of stuff like vbSEO, I totally understand why some would object. However its all relative isn't it? If it really was too much then price would come down to where the market would support it. Or more inexpensive solutions would come onto the market. Me? I agree its expensive - however it is still an acceptable investment for what I get out of it so I bought it. I was the same with PhotoPost (which was around the same price). While PP is a great product, I eventually went to vBa as it suited my needs better and cost less. Its kind of ironic considering vB is the most expensive forum in its class.Llike going to a phpBB forum and seeing people flabbergasted about vb's price. Its all relative.

I love .org and miss the buzz of releasing work here. What I don't miss is the angry .orgers and the occasional user that treats you like he owns you because he installed your hack that you spent 3 months working on, released to the community FOC while he invested 2 seconds of his time (and would of halved that if he would have read the instructions ;) )

[davidw]

Here are some ideas...
Keep vborg free - :) - and their code as well and create a vbnet or something to the like with commercial products whom wish to profit from their coding. In this case, for those who wish for free hacks, go to one site, those who wish for "premium" hacks, go to another. That way, everyone is happy - heck, share the same database so that users from one can post and reply on the other and vice versa - no "new accounts." :P

And - give people the right to make their own versions (possibly released under the GNU/GPL?) of the premium hacks - then again, you get what you pay for - and if it's free - well. You also have the option for level of support - those who choose to pay get a better support than those who choose the free version.

I made very little as a coder for phpnuke but I enjoyed making things work - and others happy. It took me the better part of 6 months to figure out how the nuke code worked in order to start with my hacks. I'm on month two with vbulletin code and I'm not doing too bad :P - I'm just now starting to understand how plugins work. But one thing I have noticed is that in one instance where two similar hacks (using plugins were used) one prevented the other from working. That's an issue that could probably be addressed by creating more hooks. But who am I - just a newb LOL!

Edit: Of course, you may want to get permission from whomever if you want to create a knock-off free version :)

[nexialys]

WHAT ?!

again, this useless debate? damn, i thought i've fixed this earlier this year.. looks like The Geek wants me to come back and slap his little pink butt... ;)

ok, i let the Boofo guy take over.. lol

[The Geek]

WHAT ?!

again, this useless debate? damn, i thought i've fixed this earlier this year.. looks like The Geek wants me to come back and slap his little pink butt... ;)

ok, i let the Boofo guy take over.. lol

Its only as useless as what you bring to it ;)

[plubius]

Probably the only time in history that I am actually rooting for da man in a thread.

vborg is a free site where peeps can come to make their site better. You come on here making the end users of hacks look like bad people, when in all actuality it is people that seek money over the internet for forum hacks that are really bad. Most board owners, the ones you dismiss as a mob, are good and decent people, trying to attract members to their forum. I have not seen one forum yet where you have to pay to be a member. In most cases, board owners are barely scraping by, such as the ones who do not use google ads and other such advertising and who rely on donations are in this "mob" you speak of.

vborg hosts some talent coders. They contribute a lot of their time and energy, to be sure. I as a board owner understand and respect these coders, even if I do not say it other than today. If you are a coder here, thank you thank you thank you. Some here donate money to these coders. That is the way that it has always been.

You have made many unsupported scenarios. Here's another. I am a board owner. If I have to pay for hack, I will do without the hack. I will open up my site to free coders and provide hacks to the people who want them. I will strongly support donations to these coders, but charge no one.

I am done being pissed off now now thanks to some lovely vodka. Goes back to the mob. "Ah brothers and sisters, I did but fight the good fight for us..."

[Wayne Luke]

I have no problem with people changing their minds about hacks being paid after releasing them for free. The level of support required here can be overwhelming. I have tried checking the beta box, unchecking the supported box, putting things in my sig line and explaining about time limitations till I'm blue in the face. I'm still nagged daily on the board and via PM for added features and help when users foul things up. Heck, they even bug me to support hacks I didn't write and don't even use!

Amy

Open your favorite text editor and add this:

While general support is not available for this hack, I can help you. My current fees are $45.00 per hour with a 2 hour minimum for support. You can send me the minimum fee to my Paypal account and I will review your case. If the work will require more than 2 hours work, I will invoice you and work will proceed after it is paid in full.. Due to time constraints this fee is none negotiable.

Copy and paste PM response.

-------------------------------------

As far as the original post, if anyone is attacked on this site because they offer commercial scripts in their signature or a previously free script is now commercial, the people doing the attacking should be banned per the forum rules. This would include through PMs and the forums Send Email functionality.


1.General Posting Rules:

1.1 No "Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest.

1.2 No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles and signatures.

[plubius]

WHAT ?!

again, this useless debate? damn, i thought i've fixed this earlier this year.. looks like The Geek wants me to come back and slap his little pink butt... ;)

ok, i let the Boofo guy take over.. lol

nexialys rawks. (the mobs speaks)

[Zachery]

Here are some ideas...
Keep vborg free - :) - and their code as well and create a vbnet or something to the like with commercial products whom wish to profit from their coding. In this case, for those who wish for free hacks, go to one site, those who wish for "premium" hacks, go to another. That way, everyone is happy - heck, share the same database so that users from one can post and reply on the other and vice versa - no "new accounts." :P

And - give people the right to make their own versions (possibly released under the GNU/GPL?) of the premium hacks - then again, you get what you pay for - and if it's free - well. You also have the option for level of support - those who choose to pay get a better support than those who choose the free version.

I made very little as a coder for phpnuke but I enjoyed making things work - and others happy. It took me the better part of 6 months to figure out how the nuke code worked in order to start with my hacks. I'm on month two with vbulletin code and I'm not doing too bad :P - I'm just now starting to understand how plugins work. But one thing I have noticed is that in one instance where two similar hacks (using plugins were used) one prevented the other from working. That's an issue that could probably be addressed by creating more hooks. But who am I - just a newb LOL!

Edit: Of course, you may want to get permission from whomever if you want to create a knock-off free version :)

I don't believe we ever wanted "paid" hacks here, but a way for people to advertise their paid hacks, no one has to read the ads / posts / threads however we decided to impliment them here.

[plubius]

I have no problem with people changing their minds about hacks being paid after releasing them for free. The level of support required here can be overwhelming. I have tried checking the beta box, unchecking the supported box, putting things in my sig line and explaining about time limitations till I'm blue in the face. I'm still nagged daily on the board and via PM for added features and help when users foul things up. Heck, they even bug me to support hacks I didn't write and don't even use!

Amy


ok, I understand some of your points, but I do not understand the problem.

You have released some hacks. They are good hacks, I agree. However, if you are having all these problems, you can always igonore those that you did not create. Am I the only one that has "igonore user"?

Open your favorite text editor and add this:



Copy and paste PM response.

-------------------------------------

As far as the original post, if anyone is attacked on this site because they offer commercial scripts in their signature or a previously free script is now commercial, the people doing the attacking should be banned per the forum rules. This would include through PMs and the forums Send Email functionality.

I think you are wrong.

[Zachery]

ok, I understand some of your points, but I do not understand the problem.

You have released some hacks. They are good hacks, I agree. However, if you are having all these problems, you can always igonore those that you did not create. Am I the only one that has "igonore user"?



I think you are wrong.

Nothing wrong with telling people that if they really want help there is a surchage esp when you are a busy person.

[plubius]

It was not eactly that i was addressing, Zachery. i think it is odd that we have vbulletin people here. Lord knows it cost us out the wazoo to buy a vbulletin, and now we have them here helping others to charge us more.

[Wayne Luke]

It was not eactly that i was addressing, Zachery. i think it is odd that we have vbulletin people here. Lord knows it cost us out the wazoo to buy a vbulletin, and now we have them here helping others to charge us more.

Each hour that the add-on developers spend on this forum costs them money. Their bills are not free. Maybe you live in an utopian society where you do not need to pay for clothing, housing, food, water, medical, school and other basic needs. However, most of us do not. We have to balance philantrophic issues such as supporting this site and making it available at no cost with other real world issues such as those listed above.

This is not about being greedy. It is how the real world works and not everything in life is free. I am sorry that some people continue to refuse to see this but that is the way it is. Either use the channels provided here for free and respect the add-on authors wishes or expect to pay money for what you want. This is the same economy that has been in effect on this planet for the last 10,000 years and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

I see expecting everything on the Internet to be free and for others to slave to your satisfaction as the ultimate expression of greed.

By the way, anyone who approaches me outside of normal vBulletin support channels (support system, vBulletin.com forums, and telephone support) usually gets the same PM from me. I don't need work to intrude on my other interests in life and my family 24 hours a day. As far as having vBulletin staff here, this site is owned and operated by Jelsoft as a community venture. It is maintained by volunteers but all the bills are paid by your license fees.

[The Geek]

Plubis, sorry if you feel I was saying all orgers are ogres. That wasn't my intention and I apologize if anyone got that impression.

I can relate to your position (someone who relies on .org for free board modification) and one day you may be able to relate to some others that can become frustrated at times when you release a lot of work and support it here. Its not so simple to 'turn your back' on a hack and to not support it anymore.

Regardless - it wasn't even the intention of this thread. The intention was to try to get you guys to love the guys that CAN donate their time here FOC and not trash the ones that cant anymore.

Love thy coders. :)

[eXtremeTim]

Haven't been about as much lately since the whole "you are evil because you are going commercial" threads kicked off a few months ago.

I popped in today and was browsing about appalled to see the same mentality and anger toward people who decide that their time and investment should be met with something equal from the people who benefit from it.

In other words - a lot of angry .orgers with a mob mentality toward anything remotely commercial (although ironic that vB isn't lumped into this).

What is up? Sure, OK, .orgers rules: hear no commercial, see no commercial, speak no commercial - however I think its ridiculous to get all agro because someone who released something free then decides that its not worth his time continuing the process unless he gets something out of it. The funniest thing is that most agro/bullying in these situations come from people who do not contribute to .org, they are just users.

Please guys, not everyone can be devoted to code the hours of a part time job for you for free. Cut some people some slack otherwise you are going to have less and less talent here and more and more unfinished or half assed projects. It is true on many levels that you generally get what you pay for ;)

On a similar note, it was discussed at some length ways to provide avenues for commercial and free scripts here. I'm not wanting to stir that up again - however this was awhile ago. Any further progress? I guess your priority is to upgrade to 3.5X first.

Really odd to see the 'ultimate (but only if its free) resource for vB' be on an outdated version. Kind of like going to a MS convention watching them demo on Windows 98 boxes (what kind of message does that send customers!) ;)

Anyhooo - cant we all get along. There is a hell of a lot more in the world to get uptight about than 'hey, this guy was secretly planning on holding the world to ransom when his script came out of beta! He OWES US a final!' - many times people dont plan things that way - life somtimes just changes things. :)

(let the flames begin :tired: )

I am going to have to fully agree. I will always have some free hacks but my time is very valuable now. I cant go around releasing everything im working on for free. I am working on some comercial grade products now plus my last product is one that will save people in certain situations money and was never even intended to release.

I come up with certain works for my site that I never intend to release and then will sell becuase the demand is there for them. I mean if I were to release all my stuff that we never ment to be released for free then everybodies site would look like mine.

I work hard and am working on a wave of new high quality products some that I havent even released any details on anywhere yet. Is it so wrong that I spend hundreds of hours coding to make sites profitable for people and to be expected to release a script that will give you the power of ebay for free. I think not.

[webspider]

<my 2 cents>Both sides have valid points. As a VB user though I'd prefer to have a good reference for non and commercial hacks. So why not at least have a forum of links to commercial products. I have bought a hack from the Geek and I'm really happy with it. I can't say the same for some of the free hacks but hey you get what you pay for. </my 2 cents>

[eXtremeTim]

I have no problem with people changing their minds about hacks being paid after releasing them for free. The level of support required here can be overwhelming. I have tried checking the beta box, unchecking the supported box, putting things in my sig line and explaining about time limitations till I'm blue in the face. I'm still nagged daily on the board and via PM for added features and help when users foul things up. Heck, they even bug me to support hacks I didn't write and don't even use!

Amy

I got thro that to amy. I have people that come to my site and see changes I have made to a hack and start driving me nuts for it. Like even your hack is brought up lol. They ask me how the hell did I make my spiders show up on my portal lol.

I mean they even come and bug me at my not scripting related site. :(

[totenmaske]

<my 2 cents>Both sides have valid points. As a VB user though I'd prefer to have a good reference for non and commercial hacks. So why not at least have a forum of links to commercial products. I have bought a hack from the Geek and I'm really happy with it. I can't say the same for some of the free hacks but hey you get what you pay for. </my 2 cents>

vBorg is awesome, unfortunately I fall into the category of an untalented user (can't code worth a d*mn) but respect those that can and don't mind compensating someone else to do what I cannot. That said I think that vBorg should maintain true to it's orginal purpose...free mods/hacks. However, a resource listing all paid hacks/paid coders would be an asset as well.

Now where did the guy with the Vodka go...I brought my shot glass along!

[plubius]

Each hour that the add-on developers spend on this forum costs them money. Their bills are not free. Maybe you live in an utopian society where you do not need to pay for clothing, housing, food, water, medical, school and other basic needs. However, most of us do not. We have to balance philantrophic issues such as supporting this site and making it available at no cost with other real world issues such as those listed above.

This is not about being greedy. It is how the real world works and not everything in life is free. I am sorry that some people continue to refuse to see this but that is the way it is. Either use the channels provided here for free and respect the add-on authors wishes or expect to pay money for what you want. This is the same economy that has been in effect on this planet for the last 10,000 years and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

I see expecting everything on the Internet to be free and for others to slave to your satisfaction as the ultimate expression of greed.

By the way, anyone who approaches me outside of normal vBulletin support channels (support system, vBulletin.com forums, and telephone support) usually gets the same PM from me. I don't need work to intrude on my other interests in life and my family 24 hours a day. As far as having vBulletin staff here, this site is owned and operated by Jelsoft as a community venture. It is maintained by volunteers but all the bills are paid by your license fees.

I love it how these peeps try to lecture to you about "real life woes and problems."

You know nothing about me, mate, and I do not need your descriptions.

Save your lectures for the annointed. Oh and to be sure that I would never approach you outside normal vbulletin support channels. Maybe my lawyer if he is available, but not me.

vBorg is awesome, unfortunately I fall into the category of an untalented user (can't code worth a d*mn) but respect those that can and don't mind compensating someone else to do what I cannot. That said I think that vBorg should maintain true to it's orginal purpose...free mods/hacks. However, a resource listing all paid hacks/paid coders would be an asset as well.

Now where did the guy with the Vodka go...I brought my shot glass along!

Right here, mate. Bottoms up.

[Hanif]

Simple economics, a penny for my thoughts

Every developer has some costs that are incurred, for many of us we pay bills, licences and broadband space. Many of us who are board administrators throw in a unreasonable number of hours in maintaining our site. For some the reward is simply the interaction and the pride and joy that comes from maintaining and running a site for free. For others they make a modest income from their site.

Yet lets be honest if your site was really popular and brought in people from far and wide, then how can you balance your life, your family and your job. It really is difficult, from my brief time on the board, I see that no one over here has retired, we are all either working and supporting ourselves and our families.

Even large sites like Yahoo, MSN, MySpace and others have a team of paid staff running their sites. By making money from advertising and other sponsorships they can afford to pay developers to enhance their site in order to draw in more traffic.

And same goes over here, if you want people to come to your site, aside from content alone, there must be ways of bringing in further customers. Maybe some customers simply want a banner on your forum, advertising others of their organisation, how are you going to cater for this?

Now you can craft a hack yourself, or, if like me save time and buy a script. It's as simple as that. For example, in your professional capacity in terms of employment what would you see as your charge out rate??? Maybe for some the hourly rate for their knowledge and experience to others is $50 an hour. Yet if you had to code a script like Geeks how long would it take you?? 10 hours? 15 hours??? Thus basic maths would turn out to be 10(hours) * $50(ones charge out rate) = $500(cost to code script). Thats if you know how to code!!!

Now, can that time be better spent by saving yourself the coding time and buying a script for less than $20? That way I know I am using the time more effectively and can use it elsewhere, above all, I know that by paying the developer s/he too can provide some justification that ok that the hours I spent coding this script I can support my family, pay the bills and so forth.

I am in no way saying I am not appreciative of the quality of free scripts offered here. I am eternally grateful for that. Yet you have to have a balance in life and I think for vb.org to grow we need to understand and appreciate that not everyone can throw in free scripts. Every coder has different demands placed on him/her in terms of life and the economic circumstances they are in.

vBulletin to me is without a shadow of doubt the best forum software out there, and to provide a quality product/service one can only carry this out for so long.

Until someone changes the law of economics or say, we introduce the barter system of trading I can't see why we should not allow commercial developers to advertise their products.

Kindest regards,

Hanif

[Brad]

Guys lets not turn this into a flamewar, you are free to speak your mind but you will not be allowed to insult other members in the process.

Lets get back on topic: Allowing commercial modifications at this site.

[eXtremeTim]

Simple economics, a penny for my thoughts

Every developer has some costs that are incurred, for many of us we pay bills, licences and broadband space. Many of us who are board administrators throw in a unreasonable number of hours in maintaining our site. For some the reward is simply the interaction and the pride and joy that comes from maintaining and running a site for free. For others they make a modest income from their site.

Yet lets be honest if your site was really popular and brought in people from far and wide, then how can you balance your life, your family and your job. It really is difficult, from my brief time on the board, I see that no one over here has retired we are all either working and supporting ourselves and our families.

Even large sites like Yahoo, MSN, MySpace and others have a team of paid staff running their sites. By making money from advertising and other sponsorships they can afford to pay developers to enhance their site in order to draw in more traffic.

And same goes over here, if you want people to come to your site, aside from content alone, there must be ways of bringing in further customers. Maybe some customers simply want a banner on your forum, advertising others of their organisation how are you going to cater for this?

Now you can craft a hack yourself or if like me save time and buy a script. It's as simple as that. For example, in your professional capacity in terms of employment what would you see as your charge out rate??? Maybe for some the hourly rate for their knowledge and experience to others is $50 an hour. Yet if you had to code a script like Geeks how long would it take you?? 10 hours? 15 hours??? Thus basic maths would turn out to be 10(hours) * $50(ones charge out rate) = $500(cost to code script).
Now can that time be better spent by saving yourself the coding time and buying a script for less than $20? That way I know I am using the time more effectively and can use it elsewhere above all I know that by paying the developer s/he too can provide some justification that ok that the hours I spent coding this thing I can support my family, pay the bills and so forth.

I am in now way saying I am not appreciative of the quality of free scripts offered here. I am eternally grateful for that. Yet you have to have a balance in life and I think for vb.org to grow we need to understand and appreciate that not everyone can throw in free scripts. Every coder has different demands placed on him and his economic circumstances are different.

vBulletin to me is without a shadow of doubt the best forum software out there, and to provide a quality product/service one can only carry this out for so long.

Until someone changes the law of economics or say we introduce the barter system of trading I can't see why we should not allow commercial developers to advertise their products.

Kindest regards,

Hanif

I like this guy. I couldnt have said it any better myself.

[smacklan]

Man...there are a few "angry .orgers" here :p The bottom line is if someone wants to give you something for free, be greatful and happy and go on. If that same someone decides to stop doing that and charge for their time and work, there's nothing wrong with that and you should say "hey, I got some great stuff from them for free, I sure appreciate that" and leave it at that. As to whether vb.org should provide a conduit for paid scripts/hacks or anything else...they already do...it's called a sig! :banana:

[vBintense]

I personally have no issue with any charging for their work, although sadly it is more common then ever in vb, look at it from a stand point of other forum software such as phpbb, vbulletin has the most ?paid? add on resources. But this is due to vb is a paid script so others believe they should profit from it as well, which is fine time is money.

As for them having links on here I think if they want ?promotion? on such a highly traffic community that reaches their base of clients there should be a price, such as must have a free light version (not junk actually useful) posted for free to pay for their adverts :) Because after all you do get what you pay for.

[TyleR]

you are free to speak your mind but you will now be allowed to insult other members in the process.

We can? :D

Sorry :nervous:

[eXtremeTim]

Man...there are a few "angry .orgers" here :p The bottom line is if someone wants to give you something for free, be greatful and happy and go on. If that same someone decides to stop doing that and charge for their time and work, there's nothing wrong with that and you should say "hey, I got some great stuff from them for free, I sure appreciate that" and leave it at that. As to whether vb.org should provide a conduit for paid scripts/hacks or anything else...they already do...it's called a sig! :banana:

The sig doesnt really do much. We are limited on sig size so that makes it hard to grab people's attention for your products.

[Brad]

We can? :D

Sorry :nervous:

It hasn't been my week. :(

[smacklan]

The sig doesnt really do much. We are limited on sig size so that makes it hard to grab people's attention for your products.
It's better than nothing and I gets lots of traffic from people who have found me through my sig on various sites I belong to.

[eXtremeTim]

I personally have no issue with any charging for their work, although sadly it is more common then ever in vb, look at it from a stand point of other forum software such as phpbb, vbulletin has the most ?paid? add on resources. But this is due to vb is a paid script so others believe they should profit from it as well, which is fine time is money.

As for them having links on here I think if they want ?promotion? on such a highly traffic community that reaches their base of clients there should be a price, such as must have a free light version (not junk actually useful) posted for free to pay for their adverts :) Because after all you do get what you pay for.

Its not that we feel we should profit being the reason. Its more like vbulletin is a much more solid script to build things off of and gives us alot more flexibility and control. So we can do more stuff for it. Plus there is more of a drive to make good quality products for it becuase its not a crappy script like phpbb.

It's better than nothing and I gets lots of traffic from people who have found me through my sig on various sites I belong to.

I will agree but I feel that we should have a forum where we can link people to them and maybe give a short description even if people cant reply to the threads or anything.

[vBintense]

Its not that we feel we should profit being the reason. Its more like vbulletin is a much more solid script to build things off of and gives us alot more flexibility and control. So we can do more stuff for it. Plus there is more of a drive to make good quality products for it becuase its not a crappy script like phpbb.

Then why not (if so many who make paid add ons want the section) make the section 'lite' products, this way those who go to them know before hand they are not the full script , you have people seeing your product. And at the same time helping the community with the lite product.

It is a win/win, everyone gets what they want. If someone wants the full product your promotion is right there, your getting customers and paid from the support you give for your lite product, vb.org is getting resources (payment) for the promoting of your script you wish to sell.

[eXtremeTim]

Then why not (if so many who make paid add ons want the section) make the section 'lite' products, this way those who go to them know before hand they are not the full script , you have people seeing your product. And at the same time helping the community with the lite product.

It is a win/win, everyone gets what they want. If someone wants the full product your promotion is right there, your getting customers and paid from the support you give for your lite product, vb.org is getting resources (payment) for the promoting of your script you wish to sell.

First some things you cant make a lite version of. I have a few hacks already that I have looked for a way to make a lite verion of but I just cant becuase to make a like version I still have to give away the heart of it. Which is the valuable part.

[davidw]

I will agree but I feel that we should have a forum where we can link people to them and maybe give a short description even if people cant reply to the threads or anything.Ahem-I was thinking along those lines... lol

[totenmaske]

I will agree but I feel that we should have a forum where we can link people to them and maybe give a short description even if people cant reply to the threads or anything.

And I would agree...but not here at vBorg. I'd be appreciative of a centralized resource with ready access to paid mods and paid coders but think it should be a seperate entity. I'd even be willing to help support such an endeavor but when approaching such a concept of supporting a seperate site you actually vindicate The Geek's position as the supporters of such a project would have to worry about a vB license, domain name, server space, bandwidth, associated expenses not to mention the most basic of questions...would anyone use the site? (I wonder what the odds are of getting a discount on a vB license for such a project).

[The Geek]

insane - its becoming more common to find paid vb add ons not because anyone sees dollar signs in their eyes, but because its impossible for many to continue to provide high quality work and support for free. In some cases it actually stifles further development and cause excellent coders to simply say 'cant be asked'.

What gets my goat is the cynical attitude that some users have here when 'commercial' is mentioned (almost always seems to be from those that have 0 to maybe 2 tiny releases here). These guys seem to think there is a bunch of greedy business men salivating for the chance to advertise on .org so they can go buy a new yacht. I can tell you now: There is not a lot of money in selling commercial scripts for vBulletin (maybe unless you are charging over $100 for them and selling them out the wazoo).

As far as the 'to post a commercial hack, you must do a LITE one'. Thats going to be impossible to fulfill. Its not win/win for everyone. Its win/win for those that don't have to write 2 versions of a script for those that will pay and then those that wont. Supporting 2 versions of the same script is even MORE of a nightmare (as I am quickly finding out) and as was previously mentioned - some stuff just doesn't scale to a LITE version.

In my opinion it doesn't make much sense to have 1 site for commercial addons and one for the hobbyists. This is supposed to be the ultimate vb resource, setting up a separate sight for fear that no one will make free add ons anymore is paranoid and defeats the purpose of having a resource center for owners of vBulletin. Heck, there will always be free options. In fact I just stumbled across a couple sites giving away my stuff for free (woot! I'm in the big time now! I'm being pirated!).

[eXtremeTim]

insane - its becoming more common to find paid vb add ons not because anyone sees dollar signs in their eyes, but because its impossible for many to continue to provide high quality work and support for free. In some cases it actually stifles further development and cause excellent coders to simply say 'cant be asked'.

What gets my goat is the cynical attitude that some users have here when 'commercial' is mentioned (almost always seems to be from those that have 0 to maybe 2 tiny releases here). These guys seem to think there is a bunch of greedy business men salivating for the chance to advertise on .org so they can go buy a new yacht. I can tell you now: There is not a lot of money in selling commercial scripts for vBulletin (maybe unless you are charging over $100 for them and selling them out the wazoo).

As far as the 'to post a commercial hack, you must do a LITE one'. Thats going to be impossible to fulfill. Its not win/win for everyone. Its win/win for those that don't have to write 2 versions of a script for those that will pay and then those that wont. Supporting 2 versions of the same script is even MORE of a nightmare (as I am quickly finding out) and as was previously mentioned - some stuff just doesn't scale to a LITE version.

In my opinion it doesn't make much sense to have 1 site for commercial addons and one for the hobbyists. This is supposed to be the ultimate vb resource, setting up a separate sight for fear that no one will make free add ons anymore is paranoid and defeats the purpose of having a resource center for owners of vBulletin. Heck, there will always be free options. In fact I just stumbled across a couple sites giving away my stuff for free (woot! I'm in the big time now! I'm being pirated!).

Join the club. I have been being pirated since my 3.0.x days. :)

with the few hacks that I released commercially on it.

Its kinda makes you know your makings somethign worth having but is also disheartning to see what your losing from it.

Same as when I put a copyright tag and a link in my hacks and come across sites using my free stuff and have remove the copyright tags.

That really gets me ticked. They cant even leave a simple credit line for a free modification.

[vBintense]

True it will be a headache but why give ‘free’ promotion for a ‘paid’ script, yes your making money off of your hard work (as you have the right too never would I say you don’t). But the same product you believe needs pay, it becomes a business / customer based.

This is going to bring many who wish to promote their scripts and bring nothing to the table in return, why should .org do something to help the few and not the community? Remember this is about the community, not the handful who wish to sell a product.

So there should be something in it for the community if people so wish to promote on these forums, it is compromise.

[eXtremeTim]

True it will be a headache but why give ?free? promotion for a ?paid? script, yes your making money off of your hard work (as you have the right too never would I say you don?t). But the same product you believe needs pay, it becomes a business / customer based.

This is going to bring many who wish to promote their scripts and bring nothing to the table in return, why should .org do something to help the few and not the community? Remember this is about the community, not the handful who wish to sell a product.

So there should be something in it for the community if people so wish to promote on these forums, it is compromise.

First off the products help the community becuase it gives them even more features to offer. Second off selling my pay addons helps support my free addons.

[The Geek]

Also - this is only part of a community because people who require a charge for their time do not have much of a voice here. This is a resource site for vb customers. Im a vb customer and my customers are all vb customers. Instead of gripping on to the past with white knuckles for fear of change, maybe it would be worth a go? It could be just what .org needs. I know as a user for Free and paid add ons (as well as an author for both) it would be refreshing to have a site to find what you are looking for which is often simply not done when its a commercial free zone :)

[MR-2ZZ]

I think that free is good... but I am always willing to donate.

At the same time Ive downloaded hacks and used them for a week, then got rid of them. Now it may become more of a money pit.

[Lea Verou]

Personally I would really like to see a concentrated resource of paid mods, even if it's in a separate site or not. I know that most times when I pay for a hack it's a quality one and has good support. I have paid for vbadvanced gallery, vbadvanced links and vbadvanced CMPS branding free and haven't regretted for one minute.
I, however get really angry when I see a supposedly free hack that is at paid beta for ages and the free release date is constantly postponed for months and months... If the coder can't release it for free then make it paid and stop the fault promises! It would be more honest!

[vBintense]

Im a vb customer and my customers are all vb customers. Instead of gripping on to the past with white knuckles for fear of change, maybe it would be worth a go? It could be just what .org needs.
Your right you are, then perhaps they should allow it with out anything offered to the community free. But if they do choose ?your? route then we need to be fair, let hosting companies promote to if they have a valid vb license (fair is fair and it is a resource of vbulletin users) and lets not forget about web design companies. And while we are at it freelance coders, o0 yes and SEO companies, as long as they have a license they have as much right to promote as you would.

[GamerzWorld]

When i first saw the development of so many payed hacks with 3.5 i like many others felt a tiny bit let down(maybe not right word). Part of my choice to go with vbulletin was its vast community whom offered great support and additions to the software. An arcade system, a article system, a RPG/Pet system the list goes on. However now as time has gone on and ive purchased the RPG, Arcade, 3 geek products and countless more items i have changed my outlook on the situation. Im no scripter, me and PHP (bar basic copying) just dont go and therefore i need additional support. With payed subscriptions i get that, i get quality addons at a reasonable price and at the end of the day if im paying for vbulletin why shouldnt i expect to pay for a huge addon to my forum? Thereofre my view is also simillar for what vbulletin.org should now offer. To me its always been the ideal resource zone, the place to enchance my forum and like it or not the age of big addons for free appears to have mainly gone. Its time to adapt and in my view its the sites responsibility as the major resource area to offer its users the infromation on what hacks are out there - Free or for a fee. I dont see the issue of these authors advertising and giving the needed information here, if you dont want to pay dont look at that section of the forum, if you think its too much like i felt for VBSeo dont buy it.. but at least offer the service for those who do.

Thats just my view

[davidw]

I guess no use bumping this thread - I get a new email once a minute lol

[eXtremeTim]

I think that free is good... but I am always willing to donate.

At the same time Ive downloaded hacks and used them for a week, then got rid of them. Now it may become more of a money pit.

The problem with donating is that hardly anybody ever does. They take or work give nothing back. As alot of time consuming questions expect paid quality support, and half the time remove our copyright notices.

[Christine]

Forgetting the paid/free thing for a second, I have to say that Geek hit on something that has bugged me for a while. Reading an author's hack -- and rather than "thank you" you see a whole lot of "this sucks because it doesn't do bla bla bla". Bugs the daylights out of me, and I have installed hacks I don't need/care about where I have seen that just to be a voice of thanks.

On the paid/free thing -- is/was this an issue with skins? I don't recall anyone being upset about commercial skins when there are free skin sites (like Floris') as well as skins released both here and .com yet (correct me if I am wrong) people with commercial skin sites/custom development of skins are allowed to plug them, no?

I wouldn't mind seeing a forum for paid hacks with a description and link. While I haven't any projects large enough to warrant that, others do. A small fee for the thread (like on WHT) and there ya go. I would go as far as to model it like WHT: No discussion outside of that thread about the hack -- only questions like pre-sale and feedback from those who use it.

Only thing is -- would there be a problem if someone released something similar (but different -- not a rip) for free? That could be a real headache for the staff...

[eXtremeTim]

Forgetting the paid/free thing for a second, I have to say that Geek hit on something that has bugged me for a while. Reading an author's hack -- and rather than "thank you" you see a whole lot of "this sucks because it doesn't do bla bla bla". Bugs the daylights out of me, and I have installed hacks I don't need/care about where I have seen that just to be a voice of thanks.

On the paid/free thing -- is/was this an issue with skins? I don't recall anyone being upset about commercial skins when there are free skin sites (like Floris') as well as skins released both here and .com yet (correct me if I am wrong) people with commercial skin sites/custom development of skins are allowed to plug them, no?

I wouldn't mind seeing a forum for paid hacks with a description and link. While I haven't any projects large enough to warrant that, others do. A small fee for the thread (like on WHT) and there ya go. I would go as far as to model it like WHT: No discussion outside of that thread about the hack -- only questions like pre-sale and feedback from those who use it.

Only thing is -- would there be a problem if someone released something similar (but different -- not a rip) for free? That could be a real headache for the staff...

The similiar thing doesnt really bother me. I mean if its similiar to one of my hacks and I look the code over and I dont see it being or consisting of chunks of my code I wouldnt have a problem.

Also with paid hacks you also get better support at least from me you get priority support on my site.

[Boofo]

insane - its becoming more common to find paid vb add ons not because anyone sees dollar signs in their eyes, but because its impossible for many to continue to provide high quality work and support for free. In some cases it actually stifles further development and cause excellent coders to simply say 'cant be asked'.

What gets my goat is the cynical attitude that some users have here when 'commercial' is mentioned (almost always seems to be from those that have 0 to maybe 2 tiny releases here). These guys seem to think there is a bunch of greedy business men salivating for the chance to advertise on .org so they can go buy a new yacht. I can tell you now: There is not a lot of money in selling commercial scripts for vBulletin (maybe unless you are charging over $100 for them and selling them out the wazoo).

As far as the 'to post a commercial hack, you must do a LITE one'. Thats going to be impossible to fulfill. Its not win/win for everyone. Its win/win for those that don't have to write 2 versions of a script for those that will pay and then those that wont. Supporting 2 versions of the same script is even MORE of a nightmare (as I am quickly finding out) and as was previously mentioned - some stuff just doesn't scale to a LITE version.

In my opinion it doesn't make much sense to have 1 site for commercial addons and one for the hobbyists. This is supposed to be the ultimate vb resource, setting up a separate sight for fear that no one will make free add ons anymore is paranoid and defeats the purpose of having a resource center for owners of vBulletin. Heck, there will always be free options. In fact I just stumbled across a couple sites giving away my stuff for free (woot! I'm in the big time now! I'm being pirated!).

I don't have anything against paid hacks, although I will never pay for one. I just don't think they ought to use the org to advertise their paid hacks and use the site to get customers. It will become an epidemic overnight.

The only way I could see it ever even half-way working is to do what Wayne suggested doing a while back. To charge a percentage or fee to advertise paid hacks here. You have to spoend money to make money so there shouldn't be any problem with doing it that way. As much as I hate commercial hacks for vb (hacks, NOT coders), I could live with something like Wayne's proposal. The org is a gold-mine for anyone selling commercial hacks and we all know it. That's why this debate has been carrying on as long as it has. ;)

[eXtremeTim]

I don't have anything against paid hacks, although I will never pay for one. I just don't think they ought to use the org to advertise their paid hacks and use the site to get customers. It will become an epidemic overnight.

The only way I could see it ever even half-way working is to do what Wayne suggested doing a while back. To charge a percentage or fee to advertise paid hacks here. You have to spoend money to make money so there shouldn't be any problem with doing it that way. As much as I hate commercial hacks for vb (hacks, NOT coders), I could live with something like Wayne's proposal. The org is a gold-mine for anyone selling commercial hacks and we all know it. That's why this debate has been carrying on as long as it has. ;)

Im going to have to argue this whole thing. This is supposed to be the ultimate vbulletin resource site. Not allowing paid mods is restricting the resource availability.

I mean im not in this game to rip people off. I am in this to pay for my time I spend on my stuff and to cover all the time I spend providing support.

I mean I am targeting comercial grade programs right now. Such as a full feature client management system, a fully featured auction system, and a fully featured shopping cart / store system.

Why should I not be able to tell the people here about these nice tools. I mean some people are always looking for these things. But may never find them. Which hurts them. I know I will be selling them either way and covering my time for them and support and other expenses related to the script. If I had to pay a price to vb.org I would proble not offer them here or else I would more then likely have charge more. Which isnt fair to them.

[Boofo]

So instead of paying a small price to advertise and bring in customers, you should get it for free, and still make money? What doesn't sound right about that?

Go to your local newspaper and tell them they should let you advertise for free and let me know what they tell you. ;)

[eXtremeTim]

So instead of paying a small price to advertise and bring in customers, you should get it for free, and still make money? What doesn't sound right about that?

Go to your local newspaper and tell them they should let you advertise for free and let me know what they tell you. ;)

lol

No what im saying is this is supposed to be the ultimate vbulletin resource. If I were to advertise here I would have to raise the price to offset the fee I have to pay. Which isnt fair to the user I said.

I mean most of my pay stuff is fairly cheap. Now the big commercial grade things usualy cost quite a bit more. But the smaller hacks and shit that I would be selling would be fairly cheap. Meaning im already hardly making anything on them just enough to hopefully cover my time and expense for the hack.

I have bills is all im saying and for me to spend as much time making free hacks as I used to it takes money and thats where my pay hacks help out. They help me to be able to keep making free products.

[Boofo]

I keep hearing all the commercial people say that they weant the hacks here because it is only fair to the users to be offered them. Fess up guys, it's not as much about the users as it is about the bucks. Plain and simple. ;)

[eXtremeTim]

I keep hearing all the commercial people say that they weant the hacks here because it is only fair to the users to be offered them. Fess up guys, it's not as much about the users as it is about the bucks. Plain and simple. ;)

If it was about bucks would I talk about making free stuff still. I think not. The hacks I make pay support them and my free hacks.

I mean I have over 10 hacks in the works right now of which a good deal of them are set to be free hacks. Yet I run short on time becuase of having to spend more time doing custom stuff. So by being able to sell my stuff here I will be able to spend more time doing publicly released hacks.

[Erwin]

I'm glad people can discuss this civilly. :) Keep up the discussion - in the end, this is a community, and a community is made up of it's members - so it's important that we let our views be known.

[Christine]

If I had to pay a price to vb.org I would proble not offer them here or else I would more then likely have charge more. And the bottom line comes out. ;)

Some of us code and support the community because we want to give back. Others are in it for other reasons.

Sorry, Tim -- but the whole thought of using someone else's bandwidth and disk space to freely promote your for-profit enterprise just doesn't mesh.

:p

[Boofo]

Too bad we can't get more of the newer memebers to get involved with this discussion. It will ultimately affect them the most.

[Boofo]

And the bottom line comes out. ;)

Some of us code and support the community because we want to give back. Others are in it for other reasons.

Sorry, Tim -- but the whole thought of using someone else's bandwidth and disk space to freely promote your for-profit enterprise just doesn't mesh.

:p

THANK YOU, Christine. You are an Angel. ;)

[eXtremeTim]

And the bottom line comes out. ;)

Some of us code and support the community because we want to give back. Others are in it for other reasons.

Sorry, Tim -- but the whole thought of using someone else's bandwidth and disk space to freely promote your for-profit enterprise just doesn't mesh.

:p

Okay listen here.

I spend over 20 hours a week helping new coders learn what there doing here on vb.org via msn and aim.

I spend at least 30 hours a week coding on my hacks.

I spend another 10+ hours supporting my hacks and others.

I give a hell of alot back to the community.

Being able to sell the few mods that I do sell. Helps me support my free hacks better. Would you rather I not release and free hacks becuase people resent me for releasing pay hacks.

I guess my time spent helping users above and beyond what most expect out of a coder is stupid then huh. Becuase oh boy I can talk about what im planning hack wise becuase its gonna be pay wow that just means less feedback on it.

Less features for others to use.

I am working on comercial grade products here that will be bigger then vbulletin itself.

I am sorry if you feel they should be released free but there is no way in hell a product that im putting that much time into thats designed to make people money will be released for free.

I mean the statement you quoted was intended for this context as follows.

Say I have a nice hack and im selling it for 10-15 bucks. Yet I have to pay vb 5-10 bucks or what ever they charge then basicly im paying vb to sell the hack then. Thats why the price would have to change.

Lets see 10 - 10 = 0. That math doesnt work for me im sorry.

[KW802]

So instead of paying a small price to advertise and bring in customers.... Please provide the link where I can pay to advertise on vB.com & vB.org.... I'll sign up today.

[vBintense]

With the current title I am sure many will bypass it as just another drama thread that is going to meet the closing end.

But perhaps their bottom line is the $, if so more power to them but in turn they need to give something to get something I believe.

I am shocked my solution (compromise) was so quickly eluded, I mean if this is to be best for the ‘community’ it should be paid to the community, perhaps I am wrong.

If they want to promote those who would intend such promotions of their paid work (business) need to offer up some compromise, that is life after all.

[cinq]

As far as the original post, if anyone is attacked on this site because they offer commercial scripts in their signature or a previously free script is now commercial, the people doing the attacking should be banned per the forum rules. This would include through PMs and the forums Send Email functionality.

There are even people attacking hack authors even when hacks aren't even commercial.

[Boofo]

Everyone seems to be jumping the gun here. Nothing has been set up as far as commercial hacks being allowed here in any way whatsoever. This is a debate/discusssion. When and if that day ever comes, I'm sure there will be a lot more discussion on the subject. ;)

[cinq]

Random thoughts

- How many of you run your vb boards with adsense, or some other form of donation/advertising/sponsors system and make something ( doesn't have to be much, but something ) out of it.
- How many of you use free hacks to better your site
- How many of you think that because of these free hacks implemented on your boards, your site offers your members and target audience better resources to want to visit/stay/participate/invest/sponsor/donate.
- How many of you would actually recipocrate the benefit you receive ( monetary or otherwise ) to the hack authors who put in countless hours of time, effort and foregone opportunity cost to provide these free hacks and support them to the best of their abilities.

[eXtremeTim]

There are even people attacking hack authors even when hacks aren't even commercial.

exactly thats part of my problem with this whole crap. I dont really get respect anywhere. I release free shit people abuse it and remove copyrights.

I dont mind paying some % of how much I will charge for it to advertise it. My problem was with the talk of a fixed price.

[Boofo]

Please provide the link where I can pay to advertise on vB.com & vB.org.... I'll sign up today.

You forgot the [sarcasm] tags. ;)

[Boofo]

Random thoughts

- How many of you run your vb boards with adsense, or some other form of donation/advertising/sponsors system and make something ( doesn't have to be much, but something ) out of it.
- How many of you use free hacks to better your site
- How many of you think that because of these free hacks implemented on your boards, your site offers your members and target audience better resources to want to visit/stay/participate/invest/sponsor/donate.
- How many of you would actually recipocrate the benefit you receive ( monetary or otherwise ) to the hack authors who put in countless hours of time, effort and foregone opportunity cost to provide these free hacks and support them to the best of their abilities.

No sponsors or advertising on my site.
Yes, I use free hacks.
I could offer gold nuggets and that won't change the fact that the male Admin on my site is a loser. ;)
And if I could afford it, I would send me a check every week. :(

[KW802]

exactly thats part of my problem with this whole crap. I dont really get respect anywhere. I release free shit people abuse it and remove copyrights.My favorite is last year I came across somebody who removed my credits entirely from both the 'readme' file & PHP file and then posted it on another vB related site under their name. After that I stopped responding to my PMs. :ermm:

[vBintense]

- How many of you run your vb boards with adsense, or some other form of donation/advertising/sponsors system and make something ( doesn't have to be much, but something ) out of it.
I make nothing nor ask for donations.
How many of you use free hacks to better your site
I use a few, not to many thought
- How many of you think that because of these free hacks implemented on your boards, your site offers your members and target audience better resources to want to visit/stay/participate/invest/sponsor/donate.
None at all, it is just something to have more fun with.... the community makes itself.
- How many of you would actually recipocrate the benefit you receive ( monetary or otherwise ) to the hack authors who put in countless hours of time, effort and foregone opportunity cost to provide these free hacks and support them to the best of their abilities.
I do, I thank those whos hacks I have used. :) That is all I get from my community is a thanks. And oddly enough that is worth it.

[KW802]

You forgot the [sarcasm] tags. ;)No, I didn't. ;)

[Boofo]

No, I didn't. ;)

My apologies then, sir. ;)

[Brad]

Please provide the link where I can pay to advertise on vB.com & vB.org.... I'll sign up today.

There is no link, this is all just discussion at this point. :)

[KW802]

There is no link, this is all just discussion at this point. :)OK, I'm starting to think Boofo was right and I needed a [sarcasm] tag. :p

[Boofo]

OK, I'm starting to think Boofo was right and I needed a [sarcasm] tag. :p

I have some commercial ones for sale if you'd like some. ;)

[eXtremeTim]

I have some commercial ones for sale if you'd like some. ;)

Here we go now were making fun of the people who are going commercial. :-/

[KW802]

Here we go now were making fun of the people who are going commercial. :-/I don't consider it making fun of... more along the lines of levity to try & lighten the dark tone that a thread like this often drifts to. :)

[eXtremeTim]

Well if we didnt all have to take such extreme stances to one side or the other which we always end up there becuase of comments from people who are against it.

I mean Id rather be able to carry on a civil conversation about this but I doubt we will ever be able to.

[cinq]

[No offence intended]
Maybe some of the posts in this thread are meant to diffuse a somewhat tense and touchy subject but I for one, do not appreciate it, given that this should be a serious discussion thread ( else it would still be in the lounge area instead of Site Feedback, no ? ).
Let's stick to the topics being discussed at hand, and do it maturely, considering all points of view and responding accordingly, in tactful and well thought out mature speak without the need for playing things down with *tryingtobefunnynotfunny bits and pieces inserted here and there.
[/No offence intended]

2cents

[KW802]

It doesn't really matter what any of us "appreciate" or not. What's happening is that this is just turning into a re-hash of the last thread from when this topic came up with nothing new coming out of it. Some people don't see a problem with it, some people do see a problem with it and the staff guys/gals are taking it all under advisement.

You can have your 2cents back.

[Boofo]

Here we go now were making fun of the people who are going commercial. :-/

Lighten up, Tim, you're taking this all too serious. ;)

[AN-net]

Forgetting the paid/free thing for a second, I have to say that Geek hit on something that has bugged me for a while. Reading an author's hack -- and rather than "thank you" you see a whole lot of "this sucks because it doesn't do bla bla bla". Bugs the daylights out of me, and I have installed hacks I don't need/care about where I have seen that just to be a voice of thanks.

the community has recently gotten very violent. i feel the community is becoming overcrowded with +++++++s. anyone see that new store i think its "Ultimate Shop", that poor guy is being flogged by +++++++s who do not appreciate his time in trying to create a store but instead yell at him calling his hack pitiful. they continue to insult UShop. i really see why some have gone commercial, this community is slowly becoming full of +++++++s who say give me give me but if it doesnt satisfy them 100% they have a right to piss all over it. they seem to think "oh i paid for vbulletin, so if a free hack doesn't satisfy me i will scream and yell as though i paid for it." actually even this has carried over to the .com, people screaming and yelling at devs. critizing them with snide remarks and +++++++ comments. what i really feel like saying to these +++++++s is "++++ off you little greedy +++++, go to phpbb if you want something for free."

[Boofo]

It doesn't really matter what any of us "appreciate" or not. What's happening is that this is just turning into a re-hash of the last thread from when this topic came up with nothing new coming out of it. Some people don't see a problem with it, some people do see a problem with it and the staff guys/gals are taking it all under advisement.

You can have your 2cents back.

I'd ask for a couple of cents but I would probably get scolded again. :(

[Brad]

Again lets try to keep discussion on the topic at hand. Everyone has been good about keeping a cool head for the most part and I would like to see this trend continue.

[AN-net]

sorry for the outburst but i am really sick of these people with like 10 posts suddenly being critics who probably do not know how to code a page of html nor what an opening tag of php looks like...

[TyleR]

sorry for the outburst but i am really sick of these people with like 10 posts suddenly being critics who probably do not know how to code a page of html nor what an opening tag of php looks like...

So true..

But gawd, gone like 3 hrs, come back and there's 3 more pages than when I left :surprised:

Anyways, my views if I need it that badly, i'll pay for it..coders here are very good at what they do and dont have every second of every day to support things for free..its like asking for free hosting then getting mad when your site is down 90% of the time..

* TyleR throws Booby a dollar

Now be nice!

[cinq]

It doesn't really matter what any of us "appreciate" or not. What's happening is that this is just turning into a re-hash of the last thread from when this topic came up with nothing new coming out of it. Some people don't see a problem with it, some people do see a problem with it and the staff guys/gals are taking it all under advisement.

Well, in case you do not see it, I am merely trying to keep this ontrack so that something new and good can come out of this thread because it is something that interests me, as well as something of benefit to the community at large, whatever the outcome, if any ( the very idea of the discussion taking place ).

[AN-net]

reminds me of people critizing my support policy of deny for any reason at any time. um i did it for free, dont i have a right to my life outside of this hack?

[KW802]

Well, in case you do not see it...I see it very well, thank you. I also saw it the last time it came up. ;)

[eXtremeTim]

Lighten up, Tim, you're taking this all too serious. ;)

dude I have been talking with you on msn and you watched me say lol to you there. You know my comment was sarcasm.

the community has recently gotten very violent. i feel the community is becoming overcrowded with +++++++s. anyone see that new store i think its "Ultimate Shop", that poor guy is being flogged by +++++++s who do not appreciate his time in trying to create a store but instead yell at him calling his hack pitiful. they continue to insult UShop. i really see why some have gone commercial, this community is slowly becoming full of +++++++s who say give me give me but if it doesnt satisfy them 100% they have a right to piss all over it. they seem to think "oh i paid for vbulletin, so if a free hack doesn't satisfy me i will scream and yell as though i paid for it." actually even this has carried over to the .com, people screaming and yelling at devs. critizing them with snide remarks and +++++++ comments. what i really feel like saying to these +++++++s is "++++ off you little greedy +++++, go to phpbb if you want something for free."

RIGHT ON.

[The Geek]

From my viewpoint I feel that the following points are valid:

There is a lack of appreciation from some members here
That lack of appreciation can lead to projects becoming abandoned or taken commercial
Once commercial, they are (for a large part) abandoned on this site
This leads to large contributors not being around as much
This leads to more .ogres here
Yea, my math is skewed, but its just another way of looking at it!
The way .org is set up now leads to a natural culling of a lot of talent around here however it doesn't cull the negative users at all. If you cant see this crimps a lot of potential quality for add ons, then my name is Olivia Newton John.

Look how all the massive projects are either getting abandoned or going commercial. It all results in the same thing: They wont be on .org anymore which in turn makes this less and less of a useful resource for vbulletin customers.

Yes, there will always be great FOC additions released here regardless of any change in rules. There will always be coders who catch the vb bug and go crazy releasing and supporting stuff FOC. There will always be content here for free. However it is my opinion that Jelsoft needs to change .org to better suit its customers.

Jelsoft should take every opportunity to provide its customers (and even more importantly: its potential customers) a showcase for what their product can do. Most people do not buy a forum system simply to run a vanilla installation - most buy because they can morph it visually and functionally. Right now, the only showcase for Jelsoft is .org which:
Is running an outdated version of vBulletin
Only allows FOC add ons
The add ons are frequently littered with 'this sucks, doesn't work' posts, half finished projects or totally abandoned projects
Frequently 'hobby' level modifications (nothing wrong with that - but if your looking for something massive, you can be hard pressed to find it here)

Basically, its not the resource and service the Jelsoft could be offering.

Solutions?

Awhile back (before I switched to the dark side and went commercial) I remember Wayne suggesting a fee for being listed in a commercial section of the site. I was not for this as its just a cost that gets passed on to customers and makes it difficult for people to make a progression from hobbyist to capitalist :)
However I see no other way to do it. Its only fair all around. If someone cant afford (within reason) to be 'listed' because no one buys their stuff - then its generally a sign that the product sucks, support sucks or the idea sucks. Therefore its not as valuable for Jelsoft customers.

The old doomsayers need to look to the future and what could benefit all vBulletin users best. Offering people a place to look for commercial scripts is not going decay the amount or quality of offerings FOC here. Oddly enough - with no commercial options - that is already happening.

[Hanif]

Right on Geek, !!!!

Couldnt have said it better !!!! Look at the quality product offered by filburt(vBulletin Mail for Users) again a classic example of why this product I think should be offered here.

There are other products listed here as well. Above all the community needs to mature and appreciate that not everyone wants a FREE hack, if someone has got the $$$ but not the time, heck they'll pay for it rather than waiting eons for something to come up.

And lets not forget if this site is the ultimate resource for vb then to be honest I think its lacking a bit. Surely the ultimate resource is not just focused on freebies? Surely, we need to move on from coders who advertise their sites via signatures and offer them an outlet for them to express their products. That shows a community growing in size that offers a number of services from free scripts, one time donation's to commercial scripts.

Kindest regards

Hanif

p.s. In no way am I a sales man for filburt or geek, but I recognise their talents and greatly admire the work!!!

[Colin F]

Most people do not buy a forum system simply to run a vanilla installation - most buy because they can morph it visually and functionally.

See this (vB.com (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=800724&postcount=148)):
Actually it's the opposite. About 90-95% of our customers never modify the code at all. Relatively very few people are coders and even fewer want to mess with the code of the software they are using.

The truth is the hackers are more visible and vocal because they are constantly making changes and looking for new this to do with vB. This is not good or bad. I just wanted to point out that the hackers are a small - but nonetheless important - minority of our overall customer base.

While I assume that a bigger part 'morph it visually', there are still a ton of forums that run the default style, simply replacing the logo or possibly adjusting colors.

[GamerzWorld]

I still dont understand why they should pay. Surely it is for the benefit of the users that

a) Costs are kept down for these commercial hacks by limiting there outgoing costs
b) The user can quickly and easily find a hack he maybe interested in.

Vbulletin addons was never going to continue as it did, it was like Geek said a Part time job which although gives a good feeling doesnt pay the bills. In most these hacks are not expensive, to pay for a whole article system i think Geeks prices are fair. To pay for a whole RPG system i think Zero's price is fair. These guys are continueing to help the community yet for the support needed and updates for the product it is simply too difficult not to ask for a small fee. In response to the "free advertising" thats not the way i see it. Vbulletin.org is meant to be the number one source for vbulletin resources, like it or not payed hacks make a huge part of these resources now and therefore its time to adapt and move with the times

[The Geek]

huh. I actually remember seeing that now!

If the users here only represent 5-10% of Jelsofts customers then surely its still enough to validate all the points I made earlier. Even though 90-95% don't even require vb.org 100,000 people have registered ;)

[Paul M]

reminds me of people critizing my support policy of deny for any reason at any time. um i did it for free, dont i have a right to my life outside of this hack?That would be me - and I stand by it - as I think its a case of poor wording. IMO There is a big difference between saying you will provide support when time allows, and may not be able to - and saying that you will deny support. That implies you are deliberately refusing to support something, a whole different meaning.

[Lizard King]

Lets put it this way. I am not a coder but i spend like 1-2 hour on vb.org to check about whats going on or just surfing. but even in this way i cannot name all the paid modifications. There must be a place which i can check every paid modification that can add a new advantage to my board.

I also respect people who are releasing paid hacks because i know they are putting a lot of working hours for that modifications and if it is a paid hack you get really good support. But if you can see that vb.org is getting worse and worse everyday. A lot of good modification authors are not even visiting vb.org anymore i am sure there may be a reason for it.

There is just one thing i cannot understand. vb.org claims that paid modifications cannot advertise in here but vbseo is advertising at vb.org nearly for 3-4 months. Within this time they claimed that they will make a lite version. As far as i see they only advertised in here. ( Just checked that thread is deleted or i couldn't find it ) What did caused to vb.org ? Nothing. So why are we still keeping paid modifications out of here. I was +++++ing in vbseo's thread because that is the only paid modification that had been advertised in vb.org

In my idea the best way vb.org can follow is create a link directory for paid modifications. Also the lisence owners need to see a directory like this. Otherwise you may never heard of a modification you need.

I dont think that this will stop free of charge modifications at all and plus i believe it will bring back a lot of good coders back to vb.org

[Brad]

There is just one thing i cannot understand. vb.org claims that paid modifications cannot advertise in here but vbseo is advertising at vb.org nearly for 3-4 months. Within this time they claimed that they will make a lite version. As far as i see they only advertised in here. ( Just checked that thread is deleted or i couldn't find it ) What did caused to vb.org ? Nothing. So why are we still keeping paid modifications out of here. I was +++++ing in vbseo's thread because that is the only paid modification that had been advertised in vb.org

vBseo was allowed at first because the author was seeking beta testers. We didn't see a problem with him seeking testers via the forum. Once the modification was up for sale he said there would be a lite version, the thread was left for discussion while he prepaired the modification for release.

Needless to say it took him longer then expected. The thread has been deleted now, but he will be allowed to post his lite version when/if it's finished.

[amykhar]

I think a lot of problems with angry .orgers could be solved if we came up with some rules of etiquette that are community enforced (politely) more so than mod enforced. (I have no stand on the advertisement of paid hacks here. I think it's Jelsoft's site and they can do what they want with it.) I am more concerned about the burn-out and disgruntlement that this site can cause.

The coders are a minority here. I did the math once, and fewer than 4 percent of this site's users have ever released any sort of mod. Another slightly larger minority helps out in the threads and answers questions on mods they did not write.

A large majority of the users are silent. They don't click install, they don't post for help, they don't post period. They are starting to be one of my favorite groups ;)

Another minority of users is very vocal, unfortunately. And it is them that are causing the problems. They don't read before they try to install. When they run into problems, they scream that the code doesn't work. They never admit to the fact that they messed things up. They install more than one mod at a time - badly - and end up with errors that they don't know the cause of. They post new threads for their questions instead of posting in the mod thread. They don't read the support thread to see if their question has been answered before posting.

It is these users who make it no fun at times to release code. I am not in the software support business. I wouldn't be if you paid me. That's why I don't write commercial mods. I do some custom work on the side, and those users get my best efforts until things are to their liking. But, code released here is me sharing an inspiration or idea with fellow coders. It is not a shrink-wrapped release.

So, if we can get the vocal minority to behave, I think you all will see the release of more mods. You will see developers like me not get so irked that we don't share our improvements and code changes.

It is a pain in the patoot to package up code for release - even with the product system. I am willing to do it because discussing code gives me pleasure. I am not willing to do it to satisfy a mob's demand for it. This is why my updates and feature additions are so slow. That vocal minority sucks all the fun out of releasing anything for the community.

Hence, the need for some rules of etiquette AND the need for the community to help support those rules.

I would never presume to make those rules. I think they should, of course, include the site's official rules. But, they should also be more. When somebody sneezes, we bless them because it's polite. Not because it's a rule. I think we need some of those polite codes of behavior here.

We need a way to civilize that very vocal minority and let them know that if they want to participate here, they are going to have to act like adults and not 12 year olds who forgot their morning Ritalin.

Otherwise, more and more developers are going to burn out and more and more mods won't be ported to newer versions of vbulletin. Or, the mods will start to cost you money. I strongly suspect that y'all lost the cash and shop mod because of burnout. I know for a fact that I haven't been motivated a drop to do any major modification updates and releases.

[smacklan]

I'm finding that whether you charge for your services is a moot point...the warez'ers will dump it out there for free in the end regardless...so it's all free :ermm:

[Zachariah]

You people sure talk about some useless stuff.

- Make it or don't.
- Sell it or don't.
- Give it free or don't.
- Help or don't.

Just shut up and do it. Call me strange, but I don't see a problem.

My ole man always said: "Son, either sh*t or get off the pot"

IE: Get'er done and stop the crying.

:banana:

[Christine]

Preach it, Amy! :D

[AN-net]

I'm finding that whether you charge for your services is a moot point...the warez'ers will dump it out there for free in the end regardless...so it's all free :ermm:
brings me too an issue of some network authorization connection with jelsoft for third parties.

[Lizard King]

vBseo was allowed at first because the author was seeking beta testers. We didn't see a problem with him seeking testers via the forum. Once the modification was up for sale he said there would be a lite version, the thread was left for discussion while he prepaired the modification for release.

Needless to say it took him longer then expected. The thread has been deleted now, but he will be allowed to post his lite version when/if it's finished.

If paid modifications cannot advertise here then why did you let him to do. As everybody else he supposed to find the testers from somewhere else because vb.org doesn't support paid hacks. If you still have the thread i mean if it is soft deleted please check it out. It was not even for testers in my point of view he just wanted to advertise his product and he did by first looking for beta testers then releasing story of lite version and it took nearly 4 months for all this. Everybody else found their testers so why they didn't. Anyway that is another subject.

I still believe Jellsoft must prepare a database for paid hacks. That will increase their sale also and it is a customer need.

For the orgers the problem start because noone reads the instructions . After the installation when they face with a problem they start +++++ing to the mod writer which they have no write to do. If someone is complaing or +++++ing to the mod writer they must receive serious warnings and maybe nopost for couple of days. Otherwise i beleive in coming future there will be only a few mod writer left at vb.org.

[Brad]

If paid modifications cannot advertise here then why did you let him to do. As everybody else he supposed to find the testers from somewhere else because vb.org doesn't support paid hacks. If you still have the thread i mean if it is soft deleted please check it out. It was not even for testers in my point of view he just wanted to advertise his product and he did by first looking for beta testers then releasing story of lite version and it took nearly 4 months for all this. Everybody else found their testers so why they didn't. Anyway that is another subject.

The first post of the thread had been edited, did you see it when it was first posted? :) When the thread began he was asking for beta testers from the community, we allowed it.

I agree it took us to long to take action after the thread outlived it usefulness, but it has been taken care of now for the reasons stated in my last post.

[AN-net]

i think a bug tracker would be a great way to bog down on ass comments in release threads and keep hacks more organized and stop bugs from being reported over and over again. this is just my 2 cents but we are getting off topic.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

The first post of the thread had been edited, did you see it when it was first posted? :) When the thread began he was asking for beta testers from the community, we allowed it.

I agree it took us to long to take action after the thread outlived it usefulness, but it has been taken care of now for the reasons stated in my last post.We even took more action then Brad is showing here, and i can know, cause i handled the vBSeo case when it was first posted.

Within a day (probably even hours) after the first post about VBSeo was made, the author already received a PM asking if he was planning to release a version here at vb.org. In the months that followed the same question have been asked him a few times, and each time he could convince us that a (free) Lite version will be released here. That is the only reason the post about VBSeo lasted longer then a day.

AFAIK it is still in his intention to release that free version, although we still have to iron out some problems with our rules (part of the code is encrypted).

Bottom line, it is not handled any different then other threads posted about (semi) commercial hacks.

[KW802]

See this (vB.com (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=800724&postcount=148)):


While I assume that a bigger part 'morph it visually', there are still a ton of forums that run the default style, simply replacing the logo or possibly adjusting colors.That 90% is exactly who my targetted customer base would be and is why, at least personally, I would have no problem paying a small fee to be able to advertise to them directly.

brings me too an issue of some network authorization connection with jelsoft for third parties.Unfortunately when it comes to products like styles they are easily ripped from the demo forums themselves. A 3rd party authorization system would work for some of commercial scripts but not styles.

[AN-net]

Unfortunately when it comes to products like styles they are easily ripped from the demo forums themselves. A 3rd party authorization system would work for some of commercial scripts but not styles.
very true but i think jelsoft should give a helping hand out to professional developers who want protection of their software as does jelsoft.

[davidw]

2 things I have noticed in the past two months of a new subscriber to vbulletin is that 1) some users get upset, 2) some coders get upset. Just because a person is a coder doesn't mean they are better than anyone else. They are human too, and at the same time, some get upset at the users. Is this their fault? Yes and No. Is it the consumers fault? Yes and No. Allow me to explain.

I've used/coded PHP for about three years, but by the same token for every year I've used PHP, I've had 4 years of experience fixing computers for customers. One thing I have noticed is that just because you own a computer doesn't make you an expert on it. When you explain to the customer what is wrong with their system you have to explain to them on a level that they can understand - otherwise, they won't. Just because you've bought a license to vbulletin doesn't mean it makes you an expert on it, especially overnight. What I have seen in here is that while most instructions are crystal clear, some are downright greek to me. Until after 3-4 hours of "guessing" and playing around with it do I figure out what they are saying.

What does this mean? Possibly that coders need to create a "level" for their consumers. For easy hacks "easy." For medium hacks, "medium." - I hope you can see where this is going. The way the hacks are currently, no one knows the level of frustration they will see until after they download and install it, unless there is some disclaimer on there that says "if you don't know php, don't bother." I can write php all day long, but does that make me an expert on vbulletin, NO, especially since I just bought the software 2 months ago. If some coders (keyword being some since most coders are good about explanations) would treat customers like they really don't know how to install it, instead of trying to teach a class of 3rd-graders algebra, then this would help a lot of unhappy consumers. In fact, a lot of frustration would dissolve if they knew how to install the hacks they desire.

As for clicking install? Unless I am 100% certain a hack will work, I do NOT click install until I KNOW it has successfully installed and it serves my purpose. I started, originally clicking install, just to click uninstall later because eithe 1) it did NOT work, or 2) it was waste of time and energy because it didn't do as I had imagined it would. I am human, and I have needs, wants, desires, just like anyone else when it comes to how I want my forum to run and what is on the forum.

As for the original intent of this thread (getting back on topic), there will be coders out there who want to be compensated for their time and efforts, which is somewhat understandable (if you code, then you know what I mean). However, a lot of consumers don't understand that. I know a handful of coders are in it for the money, as I'm not stupid and I do read a LOT of threads. I like vbulltin.org, mainly because I have found it to be a good community with people helping people without a fee associated with it. I would have started using vbulletin in Aug/Sept 2004, if I could have afforded it - it took a year of scraping the money together, with a couple of donations in order for me to even have enough money to be close enough to purchase the initial license. My site is only alive because of donations and from money I get from work. While it wouldn't bother me too much if there were coders in here that had hacks for sale - as long as there was a fine line distinguishing between which is free and which is for-a-fee, I am on here as much as I am because it IS free. I don't want to see - hey, that looks good, just to find it has a $99.95 price tag associated with it. I am by no means rich (filed for bankruptcy 3 years ago) and am struggling on a day to day basis to afford food for my family of 4 and clothes on their back (hopefully soon that will change). Things were better at one time, but being $1400 behind on bills at the moment doesn't give me the green light to buy anything I don't need (keyword-need). Is there any reason why another forum (site) could be used - such as http://www.vbulletin.net sharing the same database as .org with the intent pupose of hacks for sale? or something to the like? Just like a McDLT (if they still make those anymore lol - keep the cool side cool and the hot side hot) - keep the free hacks one place and the pay-for hacks another.

Another minority of users is very vocal, unfortunately. And it is them that are causing the problems. They don't read before they try to install. When they run into problems, they scream that the code doesn't work. They never admit to the fact that they messed things up. They install more than one mod at a time - badly - and end up with errors that they don't know the cause of. They post new threads for their questions instead of posting in the mod thread. They don't read the support thread to see if their question has been answered before posting. I've seen a lot of this happening, and a lot of coders griping at consumers for their problems - and believe it or not, some consumers will never understand how to do things - but a lot of this stems from the misunderstanding that the coder believes the consumer knows what they know and treats them accordingly. (Not referring to you Amy, you do a good job). On the flip side, I can read some things all day long, and reread and reread and not make a difference because I won't understand unless I do the work and then run into the problem - which some coders assumed that I didn't follow their instructions - which was NOT the case. I've run into problems that no one had the answer to, nor would anyone help me with the problem - so I uninstall the hack - big deal - I got over it. However, I don't like it when a coder assumes I am doing something wrong (I usually admit to my mistakes) and won't help because of that higher-than-thou assumption over me - then make me feel like I'm 2 inches tall because my results differ.

Note to coders: Not all code plays together nicely. I have found two hacks that when one is used, the other will not work possibly because both are going for the same hook. When I uninstalled the former, the latter worked. Will the coder know about this? Not unless someone says something about it in regards to the issue. Not everyone's installation is going to work as advertised. Just because it works on your test machine doesn't mean the consumer will have the same result. Yes sometimes consumers mess up on a hack, but other times hacks don't play well. Does that mean that the consumer did something wrong? Not necessarily. Should the consumer be treated like 2 inches tall because of it? No. This attitude can reflect on consumers just as well as a consumer's complaint can affect the attitude of the coder - it works both ways. Treat each other with respect, especially when there's a problem and most people will be happy.

We need a way to civilize that very vocal minority and let them know that if they want to participate here, they are going to have to act like adults and not 12 year olds who forgot their morning Ritalin.Probably the only thing I will speak against is this. Some of us are not "normal." I am a 30 year old with Asperger's Syndrome with ADHD. For those who don't know what that it is, here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=asperger%27s+syndrome) is a link to it. I don't speak for all those referred to in this quote, however, I do have problems. I hope my conduct in here isn't as bad as that though. lol

[Wayne Luke]

No what im saying is this is supposed to be the ultimate vbulletin resource. If I were to advertise here I would have to raise the price to offset the fee I have to pay. Which isnt fair to the user I said.

Unfortunately, this is the real world. Sounds harsh but that is the way it is. If Jelsoft allows you to advertise and build your own business/hobby/whatever at our expense, we would eventually have to raise prices on our products and services to compensate as well.

You have other expenses you have to compensate for such as credit card processing, paypal fees, bank transfer fees, running your own website. All of these are included in your pricing. The cost of advertising would be another such cost. You could choose to absorb it and hope for additional sales to offset the cost or increase your prices. Many different ways to handle it.

I am surprise people haven't looked at another method here....

Free Addons and Extensions but the customer pays for support. Support is by far the most lucrative aspect of computer programming in the world. IBM's support division outsells their hardware and software divisions by 10 to 1. It derives 85% of the companies yearly profits. Big money to be made in support. Many open source companies such as MySQL AB derive 100% of their income from support contracts and licenses.

[Wayne Luke]

Unfortunately when it comes to products like styles they are easily ripped from the demo forums themselves. A 3rd party authorization system would work for some of commercial scripts but not styles.

Then why have demo forums? Never understood why you would just throw all your commercial graphics and code out there to the wind. Why not do something like Template Monster does and show screenshots with watermarking and not the actual code. People will get the idea. Of course demo styles are easy but they lead to lost sales.

[KW802]

Then why have demo forums? Never understood why you would just throw all your commercial graphics and code out there to the wind. Why not do something like Template Monster does and show screenshots with watermarking and not the actual code. People will get the idea. Of course demo styles are easy but they lead to lost sales.I've thought going that route previously but when I bounced the idea off a few people most of them responded with that they'd like to see how the style actually looks up & running before purchasing. I'm thinking of taking a slightly different route now. :ermm:

[AN-net]

I've thought going that route previously but when I bounced the idea off a few people most of them responded with that they'd like to see how the style actually looks up & running before purchasing. I'm thinking of taking a slightly different route now. :ermm:
well the screenshot would be of it up and running so there should be no second guessing of its functioning capabilities.


I am surprise people haven't looked at another method here....

Free Addons and Extensions but the customer pays for support. Support is by far the most lucrative aspect of computer programming in the world. IBM's support division outsells their hardware and software divisions by 10 to 1. It derives 85% of the companies yearly profits. Big money to be made in support. Many open source companies such as MySQL AB derive 100% of their income from support contracts and licenses.
this is a very interesting idea, would you have any suggestions on how going about this? also any comment on an universal authorization system for 3rd party developers?

[Slave]

I've been using vB 3.0.3 for ages now, happily using the free hacks on these forums and, if I felt them worthwhile, buying a couple of commercial hacks (vB Mail and vBaGallery as examples). I'm well known, by some hack authors, for giving feedback and suggestions on there hacks (The links/downloads hack in particular). Although I knew 3.5 went gold I decided not to renew my licence due to the lack of updated hacks for the product.

I wasn't aware of the "discussions" around the commercialism of hacks until reading this thread, although I have been aware that more and more coders were asking for donations.

In my opinion one of the great things about vB is the strength of the "free" mods on vb.org and I think we would lose something very special if we were to go down the route of advertising commercial hacks here.

If you think about anyone deciding on which forum software to use on their website, not only do they think of the cost of the forums themselves, but the cost of addons after the fact.

After seeing that a couple of the hacks I use have now been released for 3.5 I've just paid my ?15 to get my vB licence renewed for this year and since then I was wondering where the "big" hacks had gone from vb.org and now I know. They have gone commercial. If I'd known this before renewing I wouldn't of bothered and stayed with 3.0.3.

I think this is a slippery slope. The more commercial hacks on these forums the less free hacks there will be, as more and more coders think they can make money out of people. Some of these hacks cost more than the vB product itself! how can that be right?

Should I start charging the authors of commercial hacks for the suggestions I gave them before the product became commercial? How about the time I've put into beta testing their hacks? I'm sure I can come up with an hourly rate if asked ;)

Anyway, I just thought peeps would like to read how some of us non-coders feel.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

I wasn't aware of the "discussions" around the commercialism of hacks until reading this thread, although I have been aware that more and more coders were asking for donations.
Asking for a donation is not going commercial. I have put an address to donate to in most of my hacks. I always tried to help everyone, if they have donated or not. A donation 'request' is nice, but almost nobody (2 or 3 exceptions maybe) will ever make a donation. They all just think, why should i pay (even if it is just $5 to show appreciation) if i also can get all for free.

[davidw]

Free Addons and Extensions but the customer pays for support. Support is by far the most lucrative aspect of computer programming in the world. IBM's support division outsells their hardware and software divisions by 10 to 1. It derives 85% of the companies yearly profits. Big money to be made in support. Many open source companies such as MySQL AB derive 100% of their income from support contracts and licenses.I'd vote for that :)

[Brad]

I'd also like to make a point after reading Slave's post above. I'm sure some of the older members can relate to what I'm about to say.

Back in the early days there was a lot more community support here. When I say this I don't mean support in hack threads, I mean more people were teaching and more people were attempting to learn.

Now I realize not everyone is here to learn php, most of you guys have your own forum going and come here for modifications this community provides. But the fact still remains that if we do indeed have less people attempting to learn and more importantly less people willing to teach, there won't be as many modifications made.

If we do allow something like this, I think it will remain a small part of the website as a whole. We will continue to support a learning environment here, but this is not something that the staff can do by themselves, it takes the entire community.

What the staff can do is provide the tools needed to make these things easier. I will use the hack database as an example, it's something we have needed for a long time and I think once it's in place it will make everyone's life a lot easier. While there has been talk of that it's not the only thing we have planned or are currently discussing among the staff.

[AN-net]

great post brad

[Slave]

Asking for a donation is not going commercial. I wasn't really saying it was .. but surely coders will think, after not getting many donations, "Bugger this, I'm going to start charging" ..

It's all to do with the mind set. In the old days the community did hacks because they wanted to and for no other reason. Then we had people see others ask for donations and do the same. Now we have people making their hacks commercial and others will follow suit. As I said, it's all a slippery slope to a situation where no hacks are released unless they are commercial. A sad day indeed for places like vb.org ..

Frankly, in that sort of situation, I'd prefer to see the vBulletin team themselves start to release commercial hacks/addons to vB than have to pay money to people who have no track record and could close up shop the day after you've paid your money.

vB Mail is a case in point .. I paid for the hack, which included future updates, and a few weeks after I'd paid the owner said he'd stopped working on it due to him seeing his hack on a warez download page. Who's to say that won't happen with other commercial hacks?

* Slave shrugs ..
While I know the percentage of vB owners who hack their forums is low compared to those who don't, I feel this will be the slow death of the vb.org community and in turn vBulletin will start to feel the effects.

I know that I'm starting to look at other forum software and their communities "just in case" .. which I wasn't before.

[Boofo]

Well said and accurate, Slave. ;)

[Chris M]

I've tried to stay out of this thread, mostly for the part of my wanting to strangle a few people who've spoken their mind and some about this subject...

I understand that there are people who want to charge for their products - As I previously mentioned, I purchased TheGeek's GARS and GAB because I believe that for the time and effort TheGeek put in, and the actual time and effort it would cost me, the price seemed fair :)

Now I've already stated that software such as vBSEO is far too overpriced - That's my opinion, and I know some others will jump onto the bandwagon at this point and either agree wholeheartedly or disagree to the point of questioning my intelligence...

THIS is what is wrong with this community...

The issue here, right or wrong in whoever's eyes, is the release of a Commercial hack on vB.org as a BETA, to then never finish the BETA and move all support and functionality to a Commerical version of the script...

Why is this an issue? You aren't providing a finished Lite version of your software for free use; Why should we allow you to BETA test your software on vB.org users and then expect them to pay you $x because you want it to be commerical?

There is nothing wrong with charging people for a piece of Commercial software that may revolutionize their forums; What is wrong is baiting people into having to purchase it using the members of vB.org as your guinea pigs...

So the question becomes "How do we combat it?"

Until now, we've simply removed the modification if it has the slightest hint of doing so - We allow "Donate" buttons in hack threads because the user has a choice...

What do you propose we do? Do we charge users who wish to "bait" their clients to advertise their software? Or do we simply continue with removing the software and getting criticism...

If someone can please come up with a solution that will keep both sides happy, then by all means speak up...

Most likely, there is no perfect solution; We are always going to have a dilemma with whatever choice we make and some people aren't going to end up happy...

I'll be watching this thread to see what responses this brings and I assure you that while the tone remains civil amongst you in response or discussion of this that I will contribute thoughts and ideas, snags and problems with solutions brought up...

But already there has been some badmouthing and slagging off of other members; As of yet it hasn't happened since when Brad stood in but the tone is getting heated, and I can see something going off if it continues in this manner, so be warned - I will close this and end the discussion if someone crosses the line too much...

So please, let's try and work a solution for this that everyone can agree to, or at least propose a way to sort it out?

As always, these are my thoughts and opinions, not those of the other Staff members or Jelsoft

Chris

[EasyTarget]

I think the coders have every right in the world to charge if they want to. I mean there's a lot of people trying to use that free hack to make some money for themselves at their own website.

Someone said that the hackers should be giving part of the revenue they make to vbulletin for the advertising their hack gets here.. but on the other hand maybe vbulletin should be paying hackers to make hacks because of the advertising it brings to vbulletin in return.

I for one would never have bought vbulletin had I not seen customized and hacked boards. The 'out of the box' look does absolutely nothing for me. (meaning it doesn't get me excited).

Someone else brought up the fact that there'd be people trying to charge an arm and a leg for their hacks. Its rediculous to see people charging the same price for a hack that I paid for vB in the first place, or even half the price, especially when the hack has 1/100th the functionality. I think we'd still see the high prices a lot, but a smart coder would do something like http://www.tufat.com/
He offers a lot of good scripts for cheap. I wouldn't mind paying $2 to 5$ per hack I've installed (which adds up fast) provided I could test it out and see what I'm getting. Plus he seems to have a great attitude/personality. There's several coders here who I just won't use their hacks no matter how good they are because of their 'holier than thou' attitude towards the simple end user.

on the other hand...I'd prefer to see the vBulletin team themselves start to release commercial hacks/addons to vB than have to pay money to people who have no track record and could close up shop the day after you've paid your money..I agree, if I'm going to be paying money I'd rather be buying a hack from the team that made the software in the first place, people that have a more vested interest in it and we know will be around.

[smacklan]

Then why have demo forums? Never understood why you would just throw all your commercial graphics and code out there to the wind. Why not do something like Template Monster does and show screenshots with watermarking and not the actual code. People will get the idea. Of course demo styles are easy but they lead to lost sales.
Template Monster does have demos...have you looked at their Flash templates? However, I'm like KW802, I'm looking at taking the potential loss of business and removing the live demo's and going with watermarked screenshots. I'd rather lose legitimate business than gain illegitimate business. Sorry for jacking this thread btw!

Back on topic, I would love to see a paid advertising section here at the org. Many sites do that very successfully and not at the expense of the main purpose of the site.

[The Geek]

Well said and accurate, Slave. ;)

You've got to be kidding me.

You guys are total doomsayers "Ive been looking around at other forums cause this will be the end of .org?". Pfft. Look, you two. Get some countrytime and sit on the porch to play some checkers and reminisce about the good ol days and how it just ain't like it used to be. All because someone started asking for donations.* :beard:

Slave, you talk about the coders mindset however you haven't released anything here that I am aware of. To say that people started seeing $$$ with donations when its been stated umpteen times that one or two people ever bother to give made everyone go commercial is just silly. Just because someone charges for their work doesn't mean that they are trying to profit from it. However thats just not good enough for you? They should have to not even cover some costs invovled to make your modifications? They should support the work, do up documentation for people who don't know how to work computers, give up their weekends and Pub time because thats your version of a perfect '.org'?

I know you guys would rather have the ol 'team .org spirit' and believe me - I would to. Heck, if this were the virtual garden of eden with everyone pitching in and working together on projects then you bet your ass I would be there in an instance. Heck, I would most likely close up shop and release all my work here as 'open source' because I wouldn't have to worry about support, future development, documentation, etc... as the community would do it for me! I have 1,000 projects I would love to throw out there in various states and work with others to bring them to fruition however lets accept that you Utopia wont come about because the community doesn't support it. In fact, I think more and more of the community finally want a choice. Why is a choice bad? Why is a choice something to be fearful of? If I want a gallery, I can use the one that the community built for free or buy vBa's or Photoposts or Coppermine. Why is that bad?

After all, if vB creates a solution for its customers that involves commercial scripts, YOU HAVE THE CHOICE to not buy any, read about them and not care one iota about them. However those that do will be happy they can finally get something that some would feel is desperately needed. In other words, we would all have choice whereas alas now... we do not.

Heres an idea: Put an 'ignore commercial hacks' or 'send commercial hacks to Coventry' option. Then you guys wont ever even know about them.

*I was just taking the piss about the Country time bit. I hope its not taken out of context. It just seems that I'm the only one around here who hasn't mentioned that Boofo is an old geezer at some stage in a post so I saw it as a weak attempt to clear that off of my 'things to do before I die' list :)

nJoy

[eXtremeTim]

vBseo was allowed at first because the author was seeking beta testers. We didn't see a problem with him seeking testers via the forum. Once the modification was up for sale he said there would be a lite version, the thread was left for discussion while he prepaired the modification for release.

Needless to say it took him longer then expected. The thread has been deleted now, but he will be allowed to post his lite version when/if it's finished.

Thats not the case for most people. I see alot of people start talking about needing people for beta testing and stuff but as soon as the hack is mentioned to be commercial the thread is nailed regardless of needing beta testers.

[AN-net]

in response to chris's post, if that is the case of water and oil, pretaining to free and commercial modifications, then the best solution i see is creating a separate site for such commercial modifications to keep the channels of open source clear and move any guinea pig testing there so the dangling of hacks in front of others will not proceed.

[noppid]

in response to chris's post, if that is the case of water and oil, pretaining to free and commercial modifications, then the best solution i see is creating a separate site for such commercial modifications to keep the channels of open source clear and move any guinea pig testing there so the dangling of hacks in front of others will not proceed.

There is such a place that allows that and it runs vBulletin. :)

Software Forums (http://www.softonline.net/forums/)

[The Geek]

Exactly how many 'hook and bait' jobs have been around?

Ok, you want to call vbSEO one - I could see that (though I'm still a fan of it), the only other I could think of was GAL PRO which I thought I was perfectly legit.

I uploaded it here.
Stated it was a public beta
Stated right from the word go that it would be commercial when finished
Hell, I even released a LITE version within 24 hours of it going GOLD.

The thread was removed within what... hours of it being posted?

Anyhooo. How many other bait jobs are there? Or are we just letting 1 apple spoil the batch? Are we just being paranoid? Honestly, I dont know. I havent seen many, but then again it may just be because the mods rock at staying on top of this :)

Why not specify that if something is posted here, it must be clearly stated that it will be commercial when x happens (after 1 year, when it goes gold, whatever). Then people can make their own decisions :)
The only problem I have with that is that you have to cut some people some slack. Sometimes people simply cant do it anymore.
From that stage, the community should be able to pick up the current project and run with it. If the community can do better - then the commercial version wont.

[AN-net]

There is such a place that allows that and it runs vBulletin. :)

Software Forums (http://www.softonline.net/forums/)
no official, jelsoft endorsed place exists;)

[Brad]

Thats not the case for most people. I see alot of people start talking about needing people for beta testing and stuff but as soon as the hack is mentioned to be commercial the thread is nailed regardless of needing beta testers.

This has not been the case, if you are talking about the situation with The Geek's hack this was not the same thing. The vBSEO hack was allowed because they told us they planned to release a lite version from the get-go.

[Paul M]

on the other hand...I agree, if I'm going to be paying money I'd rather be buying a hack from the team that made the software in the first place, people that have a more vested interest in it and we know will be around.Sorry, but I don't see the logic here. Being a "team" member at vb.org does not make you any better at coding hacks, or more likely to be around in the future. A number of vb.org staff have just vanished or retired, and I wasn't aware new ones were chosen purely for their coding skills. Equally, not being a team member does not make someone inferior, or more likely to vanish.

[AN-net]

to continue what Paul M was saying, jelsoft could pack up and disappear one day as well. the internet is known to do that so just because there is a team does not mean they can provide a better product or support then any other 3rd party.

[EasyTarget]

Sorry, but I don't see the logic here. Being a "team" member at vb.org does not make you any better at coding hacks, or more likely to be around in the future. A number of vb.org staff have just vanished or retired, and I wasn't aware new ones were chosen purely for their coding skills. Equally, not being a team member does not make someone inferior, or more likely to vanish.
I'm referring to .com
to continue what Paul M was saying, jelsoft could pack up and disappear one day as well. the internet is known to do that so just because there is a team does not mean they can provide a better product or support then any other 3rd party.yeah, and so could microsoft. but the chances that jelsoft would disappear vs a guy that releases a hack at .org is slim to none.

[Moparx]

Great post Chris M.. i agree completely.

I have no problem paying for hacks. In fact, I have purchased them before.
However, what I dislike is seeing a link to a paid version suddenly appear at the top of an free (and generally unfinished) beta soon after people help iron out the bugs in the product.

The coders definitely have the right to sell anything they want for as much money as they want.. but its how some of them go about it that irks me


On the flip side, I can understand why many want to move onto paid hacks. I am constantly astonished at the audacity some people have on the forum in regards to the free hacks that are made available to them.

They +++++ when a hack isnt exactly like how they want it, demand and expect support for every hack, give your hack a low rating if they don't agree with something, etc.

MarcoH64's Private Message Workbench comes to mind... his hack has a warning built in that let forum users know that their PMs could be read when his hack was installed. There is nothing wrong with that.. and truthfully it should be disclosed if you are going to actively read your members PMs.

However, some members felt they had to go out of their way to complain and give his hack 2 stars or under because they disagreed with that policy.
I have not seen one forum yet where you have to pay to be a member.
SomethingAwful comes to mind :)

[immortal21]

Well I'm new to the community here, but long time coder.
I won't post my corporation site do to the fact that I posted a commercial product earlier today and it was deleted. (no harm no foul)
I just wanted to say while that post was up i recieved over 70 hits from this site alone within the one hour that post was up.
Already I have many interested in the product.
Now i don't know if there is any affiliation between vbulletin .com and .org but if this is a place for add on's for vbulletin, it is by far the best place I have seen.
As a corporate owner and seeing how fast and how many hits I got from just an hour from one post show's me alot about this website.
Commercial or not, this site for addons, hacks etc.. would NATURALLY be the ultimate vb resource, I'm not saying it's not already because it obviously is since it's the first thing that would pop up on any search engine.
If you were to combine the awesome power of commercial and free, this site in general would be the hottest spot on the web for vb resources and it will remain that way now and forever.
These are just my opinions and not to be taken cold heartedly.
I enjoyed reading this thread and this thread could be the opening to a brighter future for vbulletin.org.

Thanks

[MPDev]

The transition from "hobbyist" to "professional" is something vBulletin.Org has yet to embrace.

I suspect there is a good market for Professionals who can provide premium mods and services, maybe someone can build and promote a vbprofessionals.com website to facilitate the conversion.

Interestingly enough, a project like that would probably actually be a revenue producer since income means a willingness to pay for promotion.

[eXtremeTim]

This has not been the case, if you are talking about the situation with The Geek's hack this was not the same thing. The vBSEO hack was allowed because they told us they planned to release a lite version from the get-go.

I am going to have to state from personal experience that this is not the case. I made a thread about my client management system that im working on and said I will be releaing a lite version of it that will basicly function as an address book. Yet the thread got removed within an hour.

[Boofo]

@ The Geek - Boofo might be old but he is wiley. ;)

[Brad]

I am going to have to state from personal experience that this is not the case. I made a thread about my client management system that im working on and said I will be releaing a lite version of it that will basicly function as an address book. Yet the thread got removed within an hour.

There are currently no threads in the deleted items forum started by you.

[Chris M]

There are currently no threads in the deleted items forum started by you.

I can confirm this :)

Chris

[eXtremeTim]

There are currently no threads in the deleted items forum started by you.

This would have been quite some time ago. When I was first getting the idea together and asking for feedback on the idea and for more ideas and stuff people would like to see in it.

The transition from "hobbyist" to "professional" is something vBulletin.Org has yet to embrace.

I suspect there is a good market for Professionals who can provide premium mods and services, maybe someone can build and promote a vbprofessionals.com website to facilitate the conversion.

Interestingly enough, a project like that would probably actually be a revenue producer since income means a willingness to pay for promotion.

I am already in the works of doing my own thing on my site which will be a general php training and reference site including detailed training for many scripts available and my products and so much more.

[Brad]

This would have been quite some time ago. When I was first getting the idea together and asking for feedback on the idea and for more ideas and stuff people would like to see in it.

We have threads in there dating back to early 2001, so if something had been posted it would still be there. We keep records of everything we delete incase a situation like this comes up.

Perhaps you posted it on vBulletin.com?

[eXtremeTim]

We have threads in there dating back to early 2001, so if something had been posted it would still be there. We keep records of everything we delete incase a situation like this comes up.

Perhaps you posted it on vBulletin.com?

Interesting. Oh well.

Im not really wanting to rehash this anyway. I was just saying I have seen it done to other hacks.


This convo is supposed to be about paid hacks.

[Chris M]

Interesting. Oh well.

Im not really wanting to rehash this anyway. I was just saying I have seen it done to other hacks.


This convo is supposed to be about paid hacks.

You are the one that brought that particular element of the paid hack conversation up, if memory serves ;)

Chris

[noppid]

: popcorn :

[eXtremeTim]

You are the one that brought that particular element of the paid hack conversation up, if memory serves ;)

Chris

I said we cant even talk about them somebody else mention a few hacks and I commented on a staff comment.

[vBSEO]

Hello everyone,

This has certainly become a very engaging discussion. With that said, the Crawlability team has been reviewing and discussing this thread, and I would like to offer some insights into our vision for a potential solution.

vBulletin.org - The Definitive Portal for Everything vB
We believe that there should definitely be a place for both FOC and commercial hacks here. Although some have suggested that a better approach would be to use an alternative forum, vbulletin.org really is the #1 resource for information on vBulletin, and we think it should remain a centralized portal for all development projects.

Resources, Support & Learning Environment
The goal for vb.org should be to make as many resources available to vB users as possible all in one centralized location (free or paid), to foster an environment of learning & mentor driven support, and to encourage developers of FOC and premium hacks to continue publishing and supporting their works here. It IS possible to achieve all of this, but it may well take a modification of the forum business model that is used here.

Having FOC and commercial hacks co-existing here does not mean that vb.org will no longer be an environment for learning. In fact, it will just further serve to solidify vbulletin.org's position as the leading resource for research, development, and discussion of vB.

Jelsoft Encourages 3rd Party Development
Premium styles and hacks are of great benefit to the vb.org community and to Jelsoft. The existence of such great products, in addition to the FOC alternatives, helps to re-inforce Jelsoft's leading forum position with vBulletin. The recently released developer API for 3.5.x shows that Jelsoft recognizes this value and is committed to supporting 3rd party development. This makes right now, the perfect time to revise vb.org's policies in order to create a home for the many great commercial styles and hacks that are available - for the benefit of all.

Commercial Necessity for Premium Hacks
Obviously the commercial aspect is a huge stumbling block with a wide divide in user opinion as expressed here and in previous threads on the topic. However, without a doubt, for top quality vB add ons to be developed, a commercial aspect is an absolute necessity.

The Need for Premium Hacks
If the statistic is accurate that 90-95% of all vBulletin users do not modify their installations, then one could argue that it shows an even greater need for premium hacks to be showcased here. These predominantly non-technical users will generally not be well suited to attempting to install FOC hacks with limited to no support (depending on the availability of the developer and others who help out in the release forum):

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=816470&postcount=120


Time is Scarce - Developer's are Limited to 168 Hours a Week
For starters, we commend the many developers who provide FOC hacks, support, and information sharing within the threads here. Their part-time commitment is extraordinary given that they (in most cases) also have to schedule time for their careers, families, & sleep within the 168 hours we all have available each week.

Alternative Compensation Models
Even without having a designated commercial forum or directory provided here, there are ways for commercial developers to be compensated for their work.

As Wayne Luke suggested, we also agree that a developer is and should be entitled to charge for support. Serious forum admins who see the benefit of installing a particular hack understand the value of the developer's time and will pay an appropriate fee for installation and/or support services, etc.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=815792&postcount=37
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=815822&postcount=43
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=816470&postcount=120 (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=816470&postcount=120)


The Value of Development & Consulting
Those of you who are professional analysts, programmers, and consultants, etc. are aware of the high value of your services with systems integration and development firms typically billing out at an hourly rate of in excess of $100/hr. Hanif touches nicely on the subject in this thread.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=815933&postcount=50 (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=815933&postcount=50)


In fact, some consultants (part-time or otherwise) have successfully leveraged their expert knowledge of vB and hack installation to make their services available to other non-technical forum admins. So they can generate revenue even without developing their own hacks, provided that they are regarded as experienced developers within the vb.org community.

Software Projects - The Difficulty Involved
We believe that there is a critical mass for all large projects in which maintaining and supporting them becomes almost impossible without implementing a fee structure.

Various contributing developers here may choose to help with support of a particular FOC hack; however, those of you familiar with software development know that managing any software project is extremely difficult throughout the various stages of the dev cycle including inception, requirements management, design, development, testing, documentation, maintenance, & support, etc. This has to be accounted for, hence the necessity of charging for premium hacks.

Buy vs. Build Decisions
Detomah touches briefly on the issue of buy vs. build:
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=815372&postcount=19

Ultimately regardless of whether going commercial is a popular choice among the community or not, everyone has 2 choices: (a) buy it, or (b) build it. In reality, there is a 3rd choice: (c) don't use it.

Evaluation Criteria
Whether you select option (a), (b), or (c) depends on a number of factors, not limited to:

Are you aware of all solutions that can help you achieve your need or desire?
Can you build it yourself? What is the cost/time/difficulty involved?
Can you get someone to build it for free? Will they support it? What is the cost of support?
Do you absolutely need it? Will it help to grow your forum, or increase your revenue? Will you see an ROI? Could you live without it?
Are there any risks associated with proceeding? Do you have a mitigation strategy or contingency plan?
Will it improve your forum significantly or are you purely motivated by desire or entertainment value? If so, (once again) can you live without it?
Are you missing out on a great opportunity by not obtaining the solution for your forum?
Evaluate each offering with the above criteria along with your own and you should be able to make an informed decision about how to proceed. But, you need to be aware of all solutions available to you (including commercial) in order to make an informed evaluation and decision.

Our Experience
We do not take any of the criticism we have received personally. Within any community there is diversity of thought. We take the negative with a grain of salt, just as we do our positive feedback. Just as Erwin noted, we can at least try our best to keep the discussions civil. In our particular instance, we believe we were handled fairly:

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=816249&postcount=83

Suggestion on Alternative Compensation Models
While vb.org will not likely provide free commercial listings, any commercial hack developer should expect and be willing to pay any advertising costs associated with promoting a product here at vb.org. Hopefully, the cost will be set at a level that does not prevent the developer from seeing an ROI.

Existing Business Models for Commercial Developers
There are various alternatives within the existing framework for commercial developers. The most obvious is leveraging exposure from FOC hacks they develop in order to get some exposure for their own fourms where they have a chance to generate revenue from donations, sales of their products/services, joint venture promotion or affiliate programs, and/or AdSense, etc. Most of the premium developers here are well aware of this and do so. It is well within the site rules and noone complains. So, we commercial developers are not completely without a presense here provided that we give something back to the community such as free hacks or posting support and/or other resources within the various threads.

What are some Potential Alternatives for Commercial Promotion at vb.org?

Paid hack release threads
Paid directory listings
Google AdSense (allowing commercial developers to advertise here via a 3rd party - i.e. Google)
Google AdSense (ad earning sharing)
Note: DigitalPoint has a very interesting method of compensating members who have AdSense accounts by providing them with a % of AdSense revenue for the threads in which they participate. This could be used as a good incentive for free hack developers to continue publishing and supporting their work here. But, obviously, it requires vb.org to start running AdSense, which may very well be a non-negotiable issue for the vb.org moderating team.

Encourage Free Hack Development with Monthly Cash Prizes for Top Hacks/Top Support
It is amazing what someone will do when they feel appreciated. If vB.org were to develop a small revenue channel from paid commercial listings, AdSense, donations, etc, such a contest could be facilitated.

It encourages better development and support as developers strive to achieve the recognition. It also compensates those (in a small way) who produce the best FOC hacks and/or support each month. The model already works exceptionally well in other mediums. Consider the following:

Google Code Jam 2005
http://www.topcoder.com/pl/?&module=Static&d1=google05&d2=overview

The X Prize
http://www.xprizefoundation.com/

Other Ideas?
Hopefully, if nothing else, we helped to get your creative juices running. If there is another alternative available, please post it to the discussion so that we can find a mutually satisfactory solution for everyone.

Your Feedback
Thank-you to everyone for providing feedback representative of both sides, including The Geek for starting a great discussion. And thank-you all for giving us a platform to share our insights into this issue. I hope that the vb.org moderators are able to use this feedback to find a mutually beneficial solution for everyone. :rolleyes:

[plubius]

the community has recently gotten very violent. i feel the community is becoming overcrowded with +++++++s. anyone see that new store i think its "Ultimate Shop", that poor guy is being flogged by +++++++s who do not appreciate his time in trying to create a store but instead yell at him calling his hack pitiful. they continue to insult UShop. i really see why some have gone commercial, this community is slowly becoming full of +++++++s who say give me give me but if it doesnt satisfy them 100% they have a right to piss all over it. they seem to think "oh i paid for vbulletin, so if a free hack doesn't satisfy me i will scream and yell as though i paid for it." actually even this has carried over to the .com, people screaming and yelling at devs. critizing them with snide remarks and +++++++ comments. what i really feel like saying to these +++++++s is "++++ off you little greedy +++++, go to phpbb if you want something for free."

I am desperately trying to figure this issue out. I will ignore the above hate filled post for a sec.

The coders here are few, so I would like to address them as a singular body for the purposes of what I have to say. Coder, do you remember when you released your first FOC hack? Why did you do it? For the overall good of fellow VBers, for recognition, for an avenue to a later commercial product? Well, other than the last did you realise your goal?

As Steve Machol said most of us non-coders rarely modify our boards. The board costs a lot of money and comes really nice out of the box. When we use a hack we want it to do exactly what it says. Again, we are not coders, kudos to those that are, even more kudos to those who provide easy to understand installation instructions. When I can afford it I sometimes give them donations. Some months with all of my bills I only eat ramen and drink cheap Walmart cola. That is why the above post reminds me of why I left phpBB: the arrogant, rude and self important snits. I rarely seek support for hacks, I do not badger the hackers. I do think that obsolete or abandoned hacks should be removed to keep some newbie board owner from making a mess of their board.

From what I have seen most of the coders here have no problem releasing and supporting hacks FOC, it is the loud assed minority here who are raising the stink. VB.org allows coders to provide board owners FOC and it should stay that way. Were it to ever change, I am one of the many orgers that will just go quietly away.

[vBintense]

You know another down side to allowing people to profit off of this community is you are in a sense taking away from those who do offer FOC code.

As it stands this is a community based on sharing. Charging is not sharing it is to better ones pocket book.

Why would any FOC coder even bother to help a community where those who prosper are not the ones contributing free?

What makes .org so useful and so popular is the free work that is posted on it, so those who charge would be benefiting off those who share freely. I know myself if such an action comes to be I would not release anything.

[FASherman]

Here's my two cents...

A developer releases a kill hack here. Many people install it and it becomes instrumental to their sites. They request feature after feature. It becomes a kill hack, but the guy who released it now spends 20 hours or more a week maintaining his releases.

There is NOTHING WRONG with him deciding that the amount of time his code now requires means it has to be pay-for-use. He's not a bad guy at all, nor is he any more greedy than the people who have been using his code for free but demaned long hours from him for no compensation. It is a natural evolution.

There is nothing wrong with someone who makes personal decision that his releases will all be free. When his killer app takes off, he makes the opposite decision. The code is "as is" and he can no longer support it. (See Inferno RSS Feed hack for an example).

For the end user, it can be a bust either way. We can becoem dependent on a hack that never matures because it becomes a support nightmare. Or we can pay for code that ends up being short lived. Its crap shoot. If you don't like either choice, buy a PHP book and roll your own.

In the specific case of TheGeek, his stuff is quality. I have no problem paying for it in the hopes it will continue to be.

As for VB.Org and commercial software, I really wish that either VB.Org or VB.Com would maintain a list of VB integrated software and add-ons. More than that, allow us to review them and rate them. I want to know what works with VB and what doesn't. I want to know which ones are good and which ones aren't.

I don't see an information source as advertising. I see it as yet another service this site could provide.

[immortal21]

Commercial products == you get what you pay for.
Free products == you get what you download.

You have to pay microsoft when you buy windows os.
You have to pay software companies when you buy software.
It's a continous chain event.

Now I know that people crack software and release it for the public to download for free and that's the software vendor's fault. I remember one application which took over a year to crack but i can't remember what it was.

As for my product it is encoded with Ioncube with a backup license system.
IonCube has never and in my opinion won't be cracked for a long long time.
Heck, the white house uses it.

As far as I see things in difference between free and commercial, is support, updates, and size. Yes size is a huge difference, my addon filesize is larger than vbulletin and vbadvanced put togeather, it's huge.

This was to a post from page 9 or 10 can't remember but oh well.

Oh and vBSEO, very well put, my thoughts exactly.

FASherman also very well put.
I can see .org growing beyond what their eyes can see, and that's not an attack or anything personal, but can't you see the potential?

[eXtremeTim]

I am desperately trying to figure this issue out. I will ignore the above hate filled post for a sec.

The coders here are few, so I would like to address them as a singular body for the purposes of what I have to say. Coder, do you remember when you released your first FOC hack? Why did you do it? For the overall good of fellow VBers, for recognition, for an avenue to a later commercial product? Well, other than the last did you realise your goal?

As Steve Machol said most of us non-coders rarely modify our boards. The board costs a lot of money and comes really nice out of the box. When we use a hack we want it to do exactly what it says. Again, we are not coders, kudos to those that are, even more kudos to those who provide easy to understand installation instructions. When I can afford it I sometimes give them donations. Some months with all of my bills I only eat ramen and drink cheap Walmart cola. That is why the above post reminds me of why I left phpBB: the arrogant, rude and self important snits. I rarely seek support for hacks, I do not badger the hackers. I do think that obsolete or abandoned hacks should be removed to keep some newbie board owner from making a mess of their board.

From what I have seen most of the coders here have no problem releasing and supporting hacks FOC, it is the loud assed minority here who are raising the stink. VB.org allows coders to provide board owners FOC and it should stay that way. Were it to ever change, I am one of the many orgers that will just go quietly away.

Okay its people like you that are pissing me off here. You call us the minority when we were the ones who helped form this site. We work hard on our work. We are stepping things up to another level. We are no longer just able to spent the time on the stuff as we used to. We are making professional grade things and making things that some proble never expected to see. In my case im bringing some very high end commercial products that will be bigger then vbulletin itself.

You think that just becuase you dont badger us that means everybody else doesnt. vb.org is growing the community is changing. It is getting harder then ever to support hacks becuase there is more of a demand. We have more people that dont know what there doing that can break even some of the most simple things at time and we work to help them yet it eats at more and more of our time. Without being able to released our paid mods here our foc ones may cease to exist as time goes on.

I have said this many times. By releasing my paid mods and selling them it helps to support my foc ones. Since im not stuck spending as much time doing custom project developement.

Commercial products == you get what you pay for.
Free products == you get what you download.

You have to pay microsoft when you buy windows os.
You have to pay software companies when you buy software.
It's a continous chain event.

Now I know that people crack software and release it for the public to download for free and that's the software vendor's fault. I remember one application which took over a year to crack but i can't remember what it was.

As for my product it is encoded with Ioncube with a backup license system.
IonCube has never and in my opinion won't be cracked for a long long time.
Heck, the white house uses it.

As far as I see things in difference between free and commercial, is support, updates, and size. Yes size is a huge difference, my addon filesize is larger than vbulletin and vbadvanced put togeather, it's huge.

This was to a post from page 9 or 10 can't remember but oh well.

Oh and vBSEO, very well put, my thoughts exactly.

FASherman also very well put.
I can see .org growing beyond what their eyes can see, and that's not an attack or anything personal, but can't you see the potential?

I agree with you somewhat. I dont feel that the full thing should be encoded. Doing that destroys the development community. Becuase huge addons always have alot of room to have their own addons.

I know my very huge commercial things will be most unencoded but will have some of the core stuff that will be needed for it to work that wont ever need to be changed by hackers encoded with liscense check systems and a few other things.

That way they cant simple just remove the encoded part becuase it will kill the system. Im planning a pretty high tech security system for my products.

Reason im investing all this time to have my stuff so that it can be modified is becuase of the fact that my modifications will be so big they will have addons and possible even addons for the addons.

[Lea Verou]

Since, as I have understood the problem that the org staff is having with paid releases is that they don't want to give free advertising to the coders that have gone commercial because they are afraid that they wont give back to the community, then why don't you make a permission system, for example:
- allow only an advanced coder to post about commercial hacks. This way it will be certain that the guy has offered a lot to the community already, so this is a way of saying "thanks". :)
- restrict the number of commercial hacks an A.C. can post about to e.g. 1 commercial hack every 2 FOC hacks. The hacks that gave him the advanced coder title won't count. Fair enough, isn't it? ;)

[cinq]

I second the a, b, c ideology that Juan brought up.
(a) buy it
(b) build it
Or alternatively,
(c) don't use it.

[AN-net]

i still think it would be best to form a completely different site from vbulletin.org, i do think commercial interaction could further corrupt/deterierate the community we have all strived so hard for.

[noppid]

i still think it would be best to form a completely different site from vbulletin.org, i do think commercial interaction could further corrupt/deterierate the community we have all strived so hard for.

This place will be fine and I'm sure the current rules can be used to anyone's advantage without corrupting the site. I think things work well right now and will continue to.

Damned if I didn't try otherwise! :o

I second the a, b, c ideology that Juan brought up.
(a) buy it
(b) build it
Or alternatively,
(c) don't use it.

Who is this? :p

[immortal21]

eXtremeTim,

It's not all encoded, just the integration for the license. :)

[eXtremeTim]

eXtremeTim,

It's not all encoded, just the integration for the license. :)

good :)

Then I fully agree with you

[plubius]

Okay its people like you that are pissing me off here. You call us the minority when we were the ones who helped form this site. We work hard on our work. We are stepping things up to another level. We are no longer just able to spent the time on the stuff as we used to. We are making professional grade things and making things that some proble never expected to see. In my case im bringing some very high end commercial products that will be bigger then vbulletin itself.

You think that just becuase you dont badger us that means everybody else doesnt. vb.org is growing the community is changing. It is getting harder then ever to support hacks becuase there is more of a demand. We have more people that dont know what there doing that can break even some of the most simple things at time and we work to help them yet it eats at more and more of our time. Without being able to released our paid mods here our foc ones may cease to exist as time goes on.

I have said this many times. By releasing my paid mods and selling them it helps to support my foc ones. Since im not stuck spending as much time doing custom project developement.

And it is people like you that are pissing me off. You make generalities about the few and apply them to the whole.

I do not have a problem with allowing you to link to a site where you have some hack of mad skillz for sale, but you cannot garner any support from the people who would actually buy the stuff--non-coders--if you seek to debase them. VB.org is for FOC coders and board owners who do not have a big digit bank account.

Here's a solution:

1. Release your hack FOC. Make sure you signify that you will support as time is available.
2. Charge a fee for your hack on your own site, link to this site in your sig (pretty sure that is allowed here. If not we all are breaking the rules).

[Lea Verou]

VB.org is for FOC coders and board owners who do not have a big digit bank account.


Ermm where exactly is that written cause I probably missed it. :rolleyes:


Here's a solution:
1. Release your hack FOC. Make sure you signify that you will support as time is available.
2. Charge a fee for your hack on your own site, link to this site in your sig (pretty sure that is allowed here. If not we all are breaking the rules).

Then why would somebody buy the hack and not download it from here? :rolleyes:

[cinq]

@all, we really need to chill and discuss this in a civil and cool manner. ;)

Oh well, I'll just do up a sort of resource directory on my site now for free listings of all commercial vbulletin resources ( user submitted, pending approval ).
* whips out Crimson editor, gimme a day or 2

[plubius]

Ermm where exactly is that written cause I probably missed it. :rolleyes: Mayhap, you are not looking hard enough.



Then why would somebody buy the hack and not download it from here? :rolleyes: It may help you to re-read what I have written.

Your words are kind of scorchy. They wouldn't be flame incognito, eh?

Hello, cinq. It is good to see you around, m8. Wondered where you had gotten off to.

[Lea Verou]

Mayhap, you are not looking hard enough.


Oh yes I am. I never found an instance of the rule that you claimed.


It may help you to re-read what I have written.


I did and it still looks stupid (no offense mate, but that's what I thought about it). In fact you are suggesting that he releases his hacks for free and only charge for support. Well, the guy OBVIOUSLY doesn't want to release his hacks for free, and personally I think he's right. Some hacks just don't deserve being released for free. You can't put days or even months of coding in a hack to make it perfect and full of features and release it for free. I've seen a significant difference in paid hacks in terms of quality, support, bugs.


Your words are kind of scorchy. They wouldn't be flame incognito, eh?


Why would somebody flame you? :rolleyes::laugh:

[Guest190829]

Please everyone refrain from making this thread turn violent. I'm sure we can all have a mature debate without any arguements breaking out...:)

[plubius]

Oh yes I am. I never found an instance of the rule that you claimed.



I did and it still looks stupid (no offense mate, but that's what I thought about it). In fact you are suggesting that he releases his hacks for free and only charge for support. Well, the guy OBVIOUSLY doesn't want to release his hacks for free, and personally I think he's right. Some hacks just don't deserve being released for free. You can't put days or even months of coding in a hack to make it perfect and full of features and release it for free. I've seen a significant difference in paid hacks in terms of quality, support, bugs.



Why would somebody flame you? :rolleyes::laugh:

In fact, your very reply above shows your very own stupidity. I have always heard it is unwise to argue with a fool, so ignore is the place for your type.

Please everyone refrain from making this thread turn violent. I'm sure we can all have a mature debate without any arguements breaking out...:)

I am trying, m8, but some people just don't know how to debate without arguing. It is easy if you cannot defeat someone's argument to just twist it around. In any regard I have her on ignore.

[Brad]

Please everyone refrain from making this thread turn violent. I'm sure we can all have a mature debate without any arguements breaking out...:)

This has been said to many times already. We will not let the few spoil it for the rest of the guys that are conducting themselves properly in this thread.

Please think before you post, or you may find that your posting rights have been removed for a peroid of time decided by the staff.

Please don't make us have to go down that road.

[smacklan]

I just bought a brand free version of your cart Geek...woohoo ;) :banana:

[Boofo]

Why is it the only ones who can see any benefit for allowing paid hacks here are those wishing to make a quick buck? If you really "care" about the users here as most of you claim, why is making the almighty dollar such a big issue? You seem to be doing all right selling your stuff on other sites, why do you need to use the org to beneift yourselves even more?

You all claim that you need to be compensated for all of your "hard work". There are others here that have done some very good hacks that have never asked for anything monitary in return. Do you really believe they have less hours in the day than all of you do? They have families/jobs, etc., too.

One major hack that comes to mind is Lesane's Store Hack. That was quite a big project for a long time and I don't rememeber once him even thinking about going commercial with it. And I know he spent as much time, if not more, supporting and updating that hack than any of you do, no matter how wonderful you think your commercial addons are.

This place has really changed from the old days. Most of you think it has gotten better, but in reality, it has gone the other way. There is more fighting and complete disrespect for one another now as individuals here than there ever was before. We didn't have the problems of users demanding like they do now. We all worked together for a common goal, and that goal was never about money.

Just because a user "pays" for a hack, doesn't mean the support will be there any more than it is for the free ones. As a matter of fact, chances are it will be the "get the money and run" sort of thing. Why should you care about supporting anything when you altready have the money in hand? And without naming names or hacks, it has happened many times in the past here. all commercial hacks here are gonna do, besides making the author more money, is make it even more of a headache for everyone here with threads full of the "I bought a hack and now they have disappeared" type posts that we have all seen too many of in the past.

I, myself, will never be a part of anything that makes the org "commercialized", unless it is strictly impoosed (as Wayne has said in the past) and adhered to with an iron fist. If you commercial authors want to make money off the org, then expect the be doing something in return. If you are going to bring this place down, it should cost you.

Sorry, guys/gals, but I needed to get that off my chest. And 2 quarts really does help make that happen. ;)

Sorry if I offended anyone, but it is getting almost rediculous now.

[plubius]

Why is it the only ones who can see any benefit for allowing paid hacks here are those wishing to make a quick buck? If you really "care" about the users here as most of you claim, why is making the almighty dollar such a big issue? You seem to be doing all right selling your stuff on other sites, why do you need to use the org to beneift yourselves even more?

You all claim that you need to be compensated for all of your "hard work". There are others here that have done some very good hacks that have never asked for anything monitary in return. Do you really believe they have less hours in the day than all of you do? They have families/jobs, etc., too.

One major hack that comes to mind is Lesane's Store Hack. That was quite a big project for a long time and I don't rememeber once him even thinking about going commercial with it. And I know he spent as much time, if not more, supporting and updating that hack than any of you do, no matter how wonderful you think your commercial addons are.

This place has really changed from the old days. Most of you think it has gotten better, but in reality, it has gone the other way. There is more fighting and complete disrespect for one another now as individuals here than there ever was before. We didn't have the problems of users demanding like they do now. We all worked together for a common goal, and that goal was never about money.

Just because a user "pays" for a hack, doesn't mean the support will be there any more than it is for the free ones. As a matter of fact, chances are it will be the "get the money and run" sort of thing. Why should you care about supporting anything when you altready have the money in hand? And without naming names or hacks, it has happened many times in the past here. all commercial hacks here are gonna do, besides making the author more money, is make it even more of a headache for everyone here with threads full of the "I bought a hack and now they have disappeared" type posts that we have all seen too many of in the past.

I, myself, will never be a part of anything that makes the org "commercialized", unless it is strictly impoosed (as Wayne has said in the past) and adhered to with an iron fist. If you commercial authors want to make money off the org, then expect the be doing something in return. If you are going to bring this place down, it should cost you.

Sorry, guys/gals, but I needed to get that off my chest. And 2 quarts really does help make that happen. ;)

Sorry if I offended anyone, but it is getting almost rediculous now.

Well said, Boofo.

I agree with it getting ridiculous, so I will not add anything more.

[amykhar]

Bob, I have never released a paid hack and don't intend to do so. I have done custom work, but have no desire to write something and sell it to the masses.

But, I think that this site could benefit by selling banner space to people who write paid modifications. But, as I said before, that's Jelsoft's decision to make.

Amy

[Boofo]

Yes, it could definately benefit someone, but not so much Jelsoft (whom would have to put up with the headaches from the ones that DO skip out with the money and run) as much as the commercial authors that would be preying on unsuspecting users. I agree, there probably wouldn't be many of them that do that, but all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch, right? Have we not learned anything in the past from all of this?

And, Amy, I didn't say you ever did release any code to be paid for. I was very careful not to mention any names or hacks in my post. I've learned that much in my 150 years on earth. ;)

[amykhar]

I was responding to this quote:

Why is it the only ones who can see any benefit for allowing paid hacks here are those wishing to make a quick buck?

I do see the benefit for the community. TAZ has banners similar to what I am suggesting. They also have non-biased discussions in the forums about products that are advertised. I have not seen problems there.

I just think that information for board owners is important. There are some damn good paid mods out there, and I think allowing them to be advertised here would be a benefit to the professional board owners who aren't looking to spend hours tweaking their sites.

[Boofo]

And you and I both know Amy what has happened in the past when an author has gone to "paid" staus. It disrupted everything here for a while. You had authors right and left thinking they could code anything and sell it via the org (in sigs, etc.). And we spent more time dealing with "I have been screwed by so-and-so, he now has my money and is gone" type threads/posts than anything for a while here.

No matter how you work it, once Jelsoft sanctions commercial hacks here, then they (and staff here) will end up being the ones to answer for whatever pops up concerning those hacks. Sure, it looks good on paper, but to actually implement it and make it work will be about as possible as me ever becoming a coder as good as Andreas. Does that sum it all up? ;)

[eXtremeTim]

@all, we really need to chill and discuss this in a civil and cool manner. ;)

Oh well, I'll just do up a sort of resource directory on my site now for free listings of all commercial vbulletin resources ( user submitted, pending approval ).
* whips out Crimson editor, gimme a day or 2

I am already working on that. Since my sites gonna offer full php and vbulletin training.

And you and I both know Amy what has happened in the past when an author has gone to "paid" staus. It disrupted everything here for a while. You had authors right and left thinking they could code anything and sell it via the org (in sigs, etc.). And we spent more time dealing with "I have been screwed by so-and-so, he now has my money and is gone" type threads/posts than anything for a while here.

No matter how you work it, once Jelsoft sanctions commercial hacks here, then they (and staff here) will end up being the ones to answer for whatever pops up concerning those hacks. Sure, it looks good on paper, but to actually implement it and make it work will be about as possible as me ever becoming a coder as good as Andreas. Does that sum it all up? ;)

Like we have said restrict to thoose of use that are known as reputable.

[The Geek]

Boofo - you're doom-saying again. Your vision of .org is of tranquility and peacefulness. Along comes an avenue to inform customers of paid additions and suddenly its all evil and seedy.

For all the fire and brimstone, the fact is that with NO outlet for customers to find reputable professionals for add ons, the quality and tone of participation has decreased dramatically here. How is the pessimistic approach going to 'heal the woe'?

Especially as all of the 'ive been screwed by so and so' happens because you basically created a black market for custom work. A directory for commercial scripts are far less likely to cause somebody to take the money and run. Why? Painfully obvious: The scripts already exist and any money being gnerated is from repeat sales. Custom work doesn't fall into this category.

Hopefully that may stop your sky from falling in ;)

Maybe the only solution now is to start vbprofessional, and provide a resource for customers of vb. People can release code FOC or charge for it. It can be a joint venture with the coders there. Then .org can change its slogan to A nice resource for those that like to fiddle with vB' ;)

Would be a shame for vB to have the weakest and angriest resource for its customers.

[cinq]

heh a quick one (http://www.vbarticles.com/resources.php) :p

[Chris M]

I am already working on that. Since my sites gonna offer full php and vbulletin training.



Like we have said restrict to thoose of use that are known as reputable.

Who deems them reputable? Surely that is the opinion of the person or persons who are reviewing them at the time...

For one, we can't expect the official Jelsoft team to spend their time figuring out which coders are and are not "reputable"...

That then leaves the reputation of a coder's status to fall on us; We can either elect to have the community to vote, and an unpopular person doesn't get "reputable" status because some have a vendetta, or we as the staff have to decide, at which point a user can turn round and demand to know why we haven't deemed them reputable, which can then bring personal issues with the staff here...

The best policy for now is just not to allow it - I imagine it will be revisited several times, but as everyone knows you can't make everyone happy - Some will be put out by either conforming or not conforming to what a certain few believe this site should be like, and at this present time, the hassle of implementing anything before we upgrade to 3.5 is not worth it...

Chris

[Boofo]

Boofo - you're doom-saying again. Your vision of .org is of tranquility and peacefulness. Along comes an avenue to inform customers of paid additions and suddenly its all evil and seedy.

For all the fire and brimstone, the fact is that with NO outlet for customers to find reputable professionals for add ons, the quality and tone of participation has decreased dramatically here. How is the pessimistic approach going to 'heal the woe'?

Especially as all of the 'ive been screwed by so and so' happens because you basically created a black market for custom work. A directory for commercial scripts are far less likely to cause somebody to take the money and run. Why? Painfully obvious: The scripts already exist and any money being gnerated is from repeat sales. Custom work doesn't fall into this category.

Hopefully that may stop your sky from falling in ;)

Maybe the only solution now is to start vbprofessional, and provide a resource for customers of vb. People can release code FOC or charge for it. It can be a joint venture with the coders there. Then .org can change its slogan to A nice resource for those that like to fiddle with vB' ;)

Would be a shame for vB to have the weakest and angriest resource for its customers.

My sky won't fall in no matter how it goes. I'm beyond that. ;)

From what I've seen in this thread so far, and the others before it, there are more against a move to commercialization than are for it. That ought to be some sort of sign, don't you think?

And if it goes that we choose not to allow commercial hacks here, that isn't going to make the org any less of a resource site. It's been doing fine without them so far. ;)

As far as users being able to find commercial addons, there doesn't seem to be any problem with them finding them if they want them. There are a few commercial add-ons that are doing very well, and they don't advertise here.

And like Chris mentioned, who decides who's reputable and who isn't? As far as vb.org being "the weakest and angriest resource for its customers" if we don't allow commercial stuff here, that is YOUR opinion, not the majority's.

I just think it would end up all being more of a headache trying to police it than anything else. And no matter what Jelsoft decides, not everyone is going to be happy or satisfied with the outcome. This debate will linger on forever, in one way or another, no matter how it goes.

I'm done now. This is my final post for this thread. It just isn't worth debating about anymore. ;)

[Lycan]

Originally Posted by Boofo
Too bad we can't get more of the newer memebers to get involved with this discussion. It will ultimately affect them the most.

There are probiably many reasons we havent seen more of the "new crowd" such as people like me..... some of us <me> dont chime in with thoughts or comments because well frankly we're new and dont want to piss off the people that we might need help from later on down the road... others might have bad flashbacks of asking for help or information from other places that are truely full of over inflated egomaniacs that assume we all should know what they know <thinks of what i was told about coppermine>... and then again they simply might not have a clue what to say or add at all and dont want to look the fool by asking/adding to what they dont <but want to> understand.

Originally Posted by AN-net
sorry for the outburst but i am really sick of these people with like 10 posts suddenly being critics who probably do not know how to code a page of html nor what an opening tag of php looks like...

Whereas i agree with this about the ones that gripe complain and are just flat out rude there are some out there who wont ever know how to do that but try <in their minds> to help by asking for, about, or if its possible for something to be done.. or added to a hack that has caught their eye <i for one have im assuming truly annoyed someone who means alot to me that has experience with vB on wether something is possible.. how do you do this or that or just flat out noob type questions (waves at her lol) > anyways its the low post lack of techie skilled people that will in the end be the ones that pay for the commercial hacks for the most part

BTW... incase it might get misunderstood i do realise AN-net ment the ones that were rude and beligerent not just newbies in general so please dont take offence for me using what was said there

Originally Posted by Brad
Back in the early days there was a lot more community support here. When I say this I don't mean support in hack threads, I mean more people were teaching and more people were attempting to learn.

This is one of the reasons i was introduced to this site and the .com site because of how much can be learned through here... of which i truely hope to beable to learn how to do everything from Styles to complex hacks eventually! how to do so? all i can do is ask questions... <search myself silly first looking through the old threads to see if i can find the answer myself first so i dont become a forum mosquito and just pester and buzz anyone and everyone for simple stuff> so in regards to what Brad said.... i hope that "Teaching" support never dissapears... i'm definatly wanting it

Now the actual topic of this thread

where as im a noob when it comes to vB things i completely support the FOC hacks <duh! lol> but i also can understand it from the aspect that somethings no matter how much we'd wish otherwise cant be done as we'd like FOC ... does that mean i'm going to run out and buy every pay hack i come across? ofcourse not thats simple common sense if you want it and need ot, or can use it... buy it . if it exists FOC search for it and use that instead...im a cheapass and im the first to admit it..... but things like portals, styles, hacks, vB itself yes if ive got the money or want it bad enough i'll pay... i might grumble simply because i'll miss my money lol <precious sweet precious cash> but in the end i will bennifet from both paid and FOC items....keep it on your site...add it to this site... make another site.... pay for support and enforce that its given.....whatever actually happens in the end people will still use the site or sites and vB <i think anyways> will still be a great thing.

In Closing

Originally Posted by Chris M
If someone can please come up with a solution that will keep both sides happy, then by all means speak up...

Unfortunatly thats impossible......as its been said before you cant please everyone.... no matter what will be or wont be done someone will always be unhappy about it and sadly some will even gripe complain and flame. For those of you that are the end decision makers for stuff like this ya'll have my sympathys lol youve got a target on you so to speak regardless of which way you go

So...good luck and good discussions everyone... i'm looking forward to hopefully getitng to know and possibly learn from as many of you out there as possible.

<stumbles awkardly off the stage to let the discussions carry on>

[The Geek]

@Boofo Fair enough, I agree that regardless of the outcome, there will be those that will be upset over the decision. The goal however should be on a solution that works for the majority while respecting the needs and requirements of the minority.

While you claim the majority don't want it here, I would disagree and say that my perception is that most are indifferent to it, many think it would be positive and some would hate it. Therefore .orgs process is catering to those few that dig their heels in about it. I do not see an overwhelming amount of people on either side of the fence coming into this thread voicing strong opinions either way. Regardless, I see more coders supporting a move than more coders against it (unless I am wrong you are the only one that has released modifications strongly opposed to it). Taking that into account I feel that its important to give a little more weight to those putting in the work creating, maintaining and supporting over those that just reap the benefits. I am not saying its because they are better people, just that without those doing the work, the others have little to gain.

Maybe put forward a poll?
1- Are you greatly opposed to .org providing information on commercial vb enhancements?
2- Do you think it would be a positive addition to .org to provide information on commercial vb enhancements?
3- I'm not bothered either way.

The only caution I would provide in regards to the above poll is the natural weight of the givers and receivers. Keep in mind that only a tiny % of those on this site actually contribute.

If I were to conduct a poll on my site about 'would you like to see content added to the site however you would have to pay to see those additions?' some would be realistic with 'Sure, if I want it, ill buy it' while many would simply say 'no, give it to us for free' (Especially if I had a vocal moderator who had already made his mind up about it before it had even been discussed ;))

On a side not: I don't think coders are special, I don't think users are bad. There are people in both camps that are bad - and both have needs but that isn't and shouldn't be the issue anymore. It should be focused on what will move .org forward to become a better resource for Jelsoft customers.

And I apologize for my off hand 'weakest and angriest' comment. It was OTT and irresponsible of me.

[Neutral Singh]

Let me take myself as an average example. i have around 60 cool plugins installed for my forums for FREE.

Now, imagine all of them are paid...

That would force me to shell out a whopping (60 plugin x $30 (at least)) ==> US$1800 per annum, which literally means that poor webmasters like myself, wont never be able to enjoy most of the coolest products anymore... :(

I think, i would ideally stick with vB.org's present policy of only encouraging FREE community of hackers. Coders with paid PRO versions can always advertise their products in their signatures as presently being done by many. I see no problem with that.

[BluPhoenix]

Basically in my mind.. "It'd be nice to know"

As a vBulletin coder and webmaster it'd be nice to know what commercial stuff there is out there, just because I'm informed of it doesn't mean I haveto buy it, and just because a paid version exists doesn't mean a free one won't eventually.. Infact I think being able to let people know about scripts here could lead to the production of "Lite" versions to aid the commercial venture..

Right now to find out what commercial add-on you can get your hands on it involves word-of-mouth, scrabbling around at hotscripts or on google or maybe if your lucky stumbling across a link in a sig.. It'd be much easier from a users point of view to have a list of whats available here with a few details, a link and then the all important user comments..

Often when your stumbling blind to a developers site you don't have any clue on just how good a script is, and you can't ask other vbulletin users here right now, so for me it'd be nicer to have the links and the feedback here..

Knowledge is Power, and I want the power to run the best vBulletin Powered Forum I can..

[Zachery]

Let me take myself as an average example. i have around 60 cool plugins installed for my forums for FREE.

Now, imagine all of them are paid...

That would force me to shell out a whopping (60 plugin x $30 (at least)) ==> US$1800 per annum, which literally means that poor webmasters like myself, wont never be able to enjoy most of the coolest products anymore... :(

I think, i would ideally stick with vB.org's present policy of only encouraging FREE community of hackers. Coders with paid PRO versions can always advertise their products in their signatures as presently being done by many. I see no problem with that.

phpBB is free, why ain't ya using it?
ontop of that, its got thousands and thousands of mods and addons that are also free, why ain't ya using that them too?

Did magicly we relize somewhere along the way that sometimes paid is better, and comes with better things?

Free addons will never stop, but neither will paid ones, we (the staff of .org) might as well take advantage of the situtation by allowing coders who want to "advertise" their sites on .org. If its styles / hacks / etc, even if its just a site listing.

[MPDev]

Isn't the title on this site "The Ultimate vB Resource"?

Shouldn't that maybe read "The Ultimate Free vB Resource"? I mean, since you explictly limit the types of resources that can be posted, can you really, truely claim "ultimate" status?

After all, "ultimate" means "incapable of further analysis, division, or separation". When you ignore/hide/prevent the growing community of professional add-ons, I think you can no longer claim "ultimate" status.

[FASherman]

As far as users being able to find commercial addons, there doesn't seem to be any problem with them finding them if they want them. There are a few commercial add-ons that are doing very well, and they don't advertise here.
I disagree. Its very difficult finding commercial add-ons and then sorting through them to find out which ones are good quality and which ones aren't. You can't rely on a coder's own support site because he/she has total control of what is and isn't viewable by the public.

We do need a information clearinghouse for commerical add-ons. One where the people who haved used it can rate it and comment on it. Maybe VB.Org isn't the place for it. Fine, I can live with that. But the idea that "most people want free stuff so its a bad idea" is ludicrous.

Think back to when IPB was free and VB was commercial. Recall every argument in favor of VB over IPB. How do those arguments not justify commercial add-ons over FOC add-ons with dubious support on irregular release schedules?

Geek, I absolutely love the idea of vbprofessional.com, especially if it not only is an area that provides consolidated access to commcerial add-ons but also provides a method to bid out jobs similar to GetAFreelancer.Com.

[EasyTarget]

phpBB is free, why ain't ya using it?
ontop of that, its got thousands and thousands of mods and addons that are also free, why ain't ya using that them too?

Did magicly we relize somewhere along the way that sometimes paid is better, and comes with better things?

Free addons will never stop, but neither will paid ones, we (the staff of .org) might as well take advantage of the situtation by allowing coders who want to "advertise" their sites on .org. If its styles / hacks / etc, even if its just a site listing.
maybe he saved up for vbulletin. And vbulletin has lots of mods and addons that are also free, he is using them (60 as he said).

I know you're just trying to make a point, but don't try to twist his post around to help you. He never said he only used free stuff, just simply that if everything cost money it'd be harder for him to add mods to his board.

[jward]

@cinq:

Thank-you for the *** Removed, once a link in this thread is enough, more will be considered spamming ***:)

[Zachery]

maybe he saved up for vbulletin. And vbulletin has lots of mods and addons that are also free, he is using them (60 as he said).

I know you're just trying to make a point, but don't try to twist his post around to help you. He never said he only used free stuff, just simply that if everything cost money it'd be harder for him to add mods to his board.

I'm using it as a comparsion tool, nothing else. I'm not trying to twist things. Which I could do, but I won't.

I'm trying to point out the fact that some products are not free, and generally this is acompanied by a more dedicated level of support and updates.

[MPDev]

Geek, I absolutely love the idea of vbprofessional.com

Yeah, actually, that was my idea (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=817069&postcount=164). ;)

[FASherman]

Yeah, actually, that was my idea (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=817069&postcount=164). ;)
Much love to whoever came up with it and anyone who supports it.

[The Geek]

Maybe the only way forward is a co-op venture of coders to create a community where coders can advertise their services, sell their products and post their free modifications (essentially what vb.org should do). My only concern is that if that community were to take off, it would render .org totally useless.

Maybe if we could get a clear consensus on the direction Jelsoft would like to go, we could axe the concept or at least see if other developers are in for a joint venture. It's not like this discussion has come up out of the blue - this has been going on for months now. If the issue doesn't get gently pushed to a decision I am afraid it may fall into the typical "the team is discussing this" vortex where no decision will ever come back out alive.

Thanks

Yeah, actually, that was my idea (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=817069&postcount=164). ;)

hehe. wouldnt be the first time Ive knicked one of his ideas :devious:

[MPDev]

That's funny, it wasn't there yesterday, seems someone took the idea and registered it.

I'll expect my royalities in the form of a cashiers check. :D

[The Geek]

hey, wasnt me this time!

[EasyTarget]

I tried searching the thread and couldni't find it, but someone posted a link to a site which they said had premium hacks for vBulletin or something. Can anyone repost it if they remember?

My only concern is that if that community were to take off, it would render .org totally useless. I don't think it would change much here seeing as how .org gets the direct links/advertising from .com

[The Geek]

How ironic is that Easy! The problem there are many premium hack sites - depends on what you are after.What I was meaning about the .org statement was that IF the community were to start to grow it could affect .org as it could become impotent without the people that release code here. If a co-op site were set up with all the things we have all been suggesting and it works better for the coders, there is always a chance many may not be bothered to post around here as much. (Damn, now I'm being a doom-sayer!)

MP - looks like someone travelled back in time! vbprofessionals has been registered for 3 years! I just tried at least 10 other variants and could only come up with vbaddons which is pants ;)

[noppid]

I tried searching the thread and couldni't find it, but someone posted a link to a site which they said had premium hacks for vBulletin or something. Can anyone repost it if they remember?

I don't think it would change much here seeing as how .org gets the direct links/advertising from .com


I posted a link to a vB site that allows advertising of any software. It has not caught on for vB hacks, but anyone that has one should have it posted there with a link.

*** Once in a thread is enough ***

The owner is a nice guy and welcomes the posts. I have nothing to do with the place except that I use it.

[EasyTarget]

MP - looks like someone travelled back in time! vbprofessionals has been registered for 3 years! I just tried at least 10 other variants and could only come up with vbaddons which is pants ;)
oddly enough, I've seen this before. One day a group of us was looking at a name to register. We checked the status and it was fine. The next day we decided to register it and it was gone. We looked up the info shortly after and it had the correct day, then when we rechecked it said it had been registered for a couple years??

That's not a field that the domain owner can edit is it?

As far as the link, I wasn't looking for any link for premium hacks, but there is/was some post in this thread that I wanted to check out and I can't find it now.

*edit*
ok, thanks noppid I think that's it. I jumped to the conclusion that it had a lot of vb mods I guess. Thanks for the post.

[Chris M]

I'd be willing to setup a board for Paid Modifications seperate from vB.org using what vB.org staff wish to volunteer for people to advertise their products on - If the idea works well then we as a team could present it to Jelsoft...

I don't want to take away from the Community here but I can't see that any solution will make everyone happy...

Chris

[jmw]

Haven't been about as much lately since the whole "you are evil because you are going commercial" threads kicked off a few months ago.

I popped in today and was browsing about appalled to see the same mentality and anger toward people who decide that their time and investment should be met with something equal from the people who benefit from it.

In other words - a lot of angry .orgers with a mob mentality toward anything remotely commercial (although ironic that vB isn't lumped into this).

What is up? Sure, OK, .orgers rules: hear no commercial, see no commercial, speak no commercial - however I think its ridiculous to get all agro because someone who released something free then decides that its not worth his time continuing the process unless he gets something out of it. The funniest thing is that most agro/bullying in these situations come from people who do not contribute to .org, they are just users.

Please guys, not everyone can be devoted to code the hours of a part time job for you for free. Cut some people some slack otherwise you are going to have less and less talent here and more and more unfinished or half assed projects. It is true on many levels that you generally get what you pay for ;)

On a similar note, it was discussed at some length ways to provide avenues for commercial and free scripts here. I'm not wanting to stir that up again - however this was awhile ago. Any further progress? I guess your priority is to upgrade to 3.5X first.

Really odd to see the 'ultimate (but only if its free) resource for vB' be on an outdated version. Kind of like going to a MS convention watching them demo on Windows 98 boxes (what kind of message does that send customers!) ;)

Anyhooo - cant we all get along. There is a hell of a lot more in the world to get uptight about than 'hey, this guy was secretly planning on holding the world to ransom when his script came out of beta! He OWES US a final!' - many times people dont plan things that way - life somtimes just changes things. :)

(let the flames begin :tired: )


What many of the people here in this forum don't get through their thick skull is that not everybody likes free hacks. Most of vbulletin customers don't know a thing about a line of code (not my words but vbulletin's). This hack forum is only for geeks not for the majority of customers of vbulletin. We need paid hacks! Paid hacks should be a forum at the top of this forum not hidden where it is now.

Many people just hate these free hacks myself included. You have to chase the hack developers to do an update on the darn hacks and put up with their .... I'd like to see paid hacks around here but the mentality (of some of the geeks) in this forum is FREE FREE FREEE HACKS BUT IF THERE IS A BUG, YOU ARE SCREWED TILL THE NEXT UPDATE, IF EVER! Meantime, your forum paralized. Example: ucash, ushop and many others.

I guess you coders don't like money. There are hundred of thousand$ to be made by selling hacks for vbulletin. I have posted hack projects here before but nobody answers. It is just 'cause of the mentality of this forum FREE FREE FREE and unreliable!

Again, if you need another push I repeat, most customers of vbulletin don't know a line of code and we members need coders that develop hacks for it and keep them up-to-date. There is a lot of money to be made! Look at how much money Nash is making by creating hacks for phpprobid! http://www.nashbrooklyn.com/forums/forum-89.html I have bought every single mod he has released for phpprobid. He keeps them up-to-date too! You ask him for a mod, he and his team develop it and sell it to his customer base. Customers are happy, he is happy. No coder chasing or problems going on. End of story.

[Lea Verou]

I'd be willing to setup a board for Paid Modifications seperate from vB.org using what vB.org staff wish to volunteer for people to advertise their products on - If the idea works well then we as a team could present it to Jelsoft...

I don't want to take away from the Community here but I can't see that any solution will make everyone happy...

Chris

That would be great but who would pay the hosting & domain fees? :(

[TyleR]

I'd be willing to setup a board for Paid Modifications seperate from vB.org using what vB.org staff wish to volunteer for people to advertise their products on - If the idea works well then we as a team could present it to Jelsoft...

I don't want to take away from the Community here but I can't see that any solution will make everyone happy...

Chris

vbulletin-premium.org

:p so unoriginal, I know :ermm:

[The Geek]

Starting to come together now ;)

I (like other coders I know) would be more than happy to work as a team to create a co-operative site for showcasing premium commercial add ons. After jmw's interesting post - its becoming more blatantly obvious that its needed (I think).

I only have to protest about him quoting my post and using geek in a derogatory manner. After all, I'm on his side!

Next step: Maybe get together via IRC and bang about ideas.

[TyleR]

Starting to come together now ;)

I (like other coders I know) would be more than happy to work as a team to create a co-operative site for showcasing premium commercial add ons. After jmw's interesting post - its becoming more blatantly obvious that its needed (I think).

I only have to protest about him quoting my post and using geek in a derogatory manner. After all, I'm on his side!

Next step: Maybe get together via IRC and bang about ideas.

Yup..looking like it is coming together..when great minds think alike, the impossible becomes possible :)

I too wouldnt mind helping out as a team member for such site :)

- Tyler

[Lea Verou]

An idea would be that Jelsoft endorsed the site and the coders would have to pay a LITTLE annual fee to have their product advertised there. I mean, like $20 or $30 a year wouldn't be much, would it? ;)

[The Geek]

I dont think funding will be too much of an issue. With a group of professionals splitting the costs, it should be a smaller investment than if it were done here.

[TyleR]

An idea would be that Jelsoft endorsed the site and the coders would have to pay a LITTLE annual fee to have their product advertised there. I mean, like $20 or $30 a year wouldn't be much, would it? ;)

Jelsoft doesnt endorse anything, including anything posted here..so why would they suddenly change?

Ah, the mention of some green comes to mind eh :ninja:

[Chris M]

That would be great but who would pay the hosting & domain fees? :(

Well I already own a couple of useful domains so I don't mind paying for the domain; Hosting costs as The Geek said could be spread accross from people to support the site, and I'm sure after a while with the possibility of ads etc we'd be self-sustaining :)

If anyone seriously wants to consider it, PM me with ideas - I'm happy to go ahead with it if nothing can be resolved :)

Chris

[TyleR]

Well I already own a couple of useful domains so I don't mind paying for the domain; Hosting costs as The Geek said could be spread accross from people to support the site, and I'm sure after a while with the possibility of ads etc we'd be self-sustaining :)

If anyone seriously wants to consider it, PM me with ideas - I'm happy to go ahead with it if nothing can be resolved :)

Chris

I'm all for it, Chris..im sure either a nice sized semi-dedicated server or a dedicated one might be whats needed down the road (meaning two weeks, lmao). I don't mind chipping in for whatever ya folks choose.

[Lea Verou]

Well if you believe that it wont be much of a cost then that's really good!
You'll be doing the community a big favor!! :D
I wish I could help but I'm a university student (not sure how it's called with 1 word) so I don't have much money :(

[smacklan]

I'm in as well...via either financial, time and/or advertising or all three :)

[EasyTarget]

You have to chase the hack developers to do an update on the darn hacks and put up with their .... I'd like to see paid hacks around here but the mentality (of the geeks) in this forum is FREE FREE FREEE HACKS BUT IF THERE IS A BUG, YOU ARE SCREWED TILL THE NEXT UPDATE, IF EVER! Meantime, your forum paralized. Example: ucash, ushop and many others.$$ doesn't make a hacker/hack better. If someone sucks at support they'll suck whether people pay them or not. There's plenty of companies out there right now to prove this. Just because someone gets paid doesn't mean they'll be good at customer service or supporting their product. The problems with trying to get owners to service their products will continue whether its free or not. Hopefully the good/reputable coders can get a site together and manage it well as to avoid these problems, but without moderation I just see most coders trying to put out as much as they can, as fast as they can. Its the whole idea of getting the most $$ while doing as little as you can (time investment with support/bug fixes).

Anyways, my suggestions for you coding gurus (if you do end up working together on a site) is to moderate heavily and set quality and support standards.

[Lea Verou]

Easytarget, I have to disagree. Personally I have noticed a significant difference in the quality and the support of paid hacks.
There are hacks out there that are of very good quality and free but they are a minority. Most free hacks are significantly worse than paid ones, and that is quite logical. I don;t blame the coders about that! In fact I need to say thanks about releasing so useful hacks for free. Some features don't need to be paid cause they are too small. For a major addition however I would prefer a paid hack.
Btw does anyone know a good paid downloads manager? :nervous: :p

[KW802]

Chris, Geek, MPDev: I, uh, can handle the domain... I'll pony up the various "vbProfessional.xxx" domains for the project. ;) If this takes off I'll be more than happy to transfer the domains to the organizing body. Between us we all have a bunch of server resources so it's just a matter of drawing straws to see who wants to host it. I can volunteer time & resources as well. As long as the project remains neutral I think it'll succeed.

[jmw]

Starting to come together now ;)

I (like other coders I know) would be more than happy to work as a team to create a co-operative site for showcasing premium commercial add ons. After jmw's interesting post - its becoming more blatantly obvious that its needed (I think).

I only have to protest about him quoting my post and using geek in a derogatory manner. After all, I'm on his side!

Next step: Maybe get together via IRC and bang about ideas.

I apologize. I meant "some of the geeks". I hope something good comes out of this thread.

Vbulletin should get rid of all this FREE hack non-sense which doesn't benefit the majority of vbulletin customers and frustrates them. WE NEED PAID HACKS! Free hacks are low quality. Free hacks are for phpbb and other low quality forums, not for gorgeous and powerful vb.

I bet if somebody opens a vbulletin paid hack site, this forum would die.

[Chris M]

So far we already have the domain (www.vbulletinservices.com) and if anyone wants to buy the others and hand them over, it won't be turned down ;) :D

I'm using my licence for it, and Zachery has provided us with some hosting, so we're raring to go :)

It'll take a day or two to get it fully setup but its going well already :)

Chris

[TyleR]

So far we already have the domain (www.vbulletinservices.com) and if anyone wants to buy the others and hand them over, it won't be turned down ;) :D

I'm using my licence for it, and Zachery has provided us with some hosting, so we're raring to go :)

It'll take a day or two to get it fully setup but its going well already :)

Chris

damn you

Pass protected it :nervous:

[jmw]

So far we already have the domain (www.vbulletinservices.com) and if anyone wants to buy the others and hand them over, it won't be turned down ;) :D

I'm using my licence for it, and Zachery has provided us with some hosting, so we're raring to go :)

It'll take a day or two to get it fully setup but its going well already :)

Chris

Sweet! You sure know how to make a man cry! LOL! Hey, start with a "paid to post" plugin to get some boards MOVING!! New boards and some old boards need that. I need that too! Just imagine newbies frustrated with their new board not getting any members... This hack is HOT! Look at the boost www.webmastertalk.in got with their paid to post hack in a few weeks.

[MPDev]

Hi, Chris. I'd be happy to offer whatever I can in the forum of support - financial or otherwise (I'd volunteer to help moderate/administrate such a site, as well).

Nice of you to off KW802, I think the domain vbprofessional.com has a nice ring to it.

[TyleR]

Hi, Chris. I'd be happy to offer whatever I can in the forum of support - financial or otherwise (I'd volunteer to help moderate/administrate such a site, as well).

same here :)

[noppid]

I think this idea is going to encourage many folks that don't have the time or perhaps talent to try and make a quick buck off vBulletin customers.

If you can't get a paid biz going from your exposure to the community helping, teaching and releasing code to prove yourself, you probably are not ready to be a professional. Having a site you can just join, and almost seem endorsed by, will not make the releasers coders and/or supporters. In fact trying to maintain that level of quality in such a site would be impossible at best IMO.

This place aint going nowhere, it's here to stay you can be sure.

[MPDev]

I think this idea is going to encourage many folks that don't have the time or perhaps talent to try and make a quick buck off vBulletin customers.

Do not be afraid, offering professional services is not the end of the world - it's simply opening up a new one that vBulletin customers can use to their advantage.

I think the opposite - I think that capitolism will determine the ultimate success or failure of individual works. If someone puts up a mod that isn't worth what is being asked for, then people won't buy it.

The marketplace (i.e. you, the customer) determine weather a product is worth it's price - not the publisher.

[Guest190829]

So far we already have the domain (www.vbulletinservices.com) and if anyone wants to buy the others and hand them over, it won't be turned down ;) :D

I'm using my licence for it, and Zachery has provided us with some hosting, so we're raring to go :)

It'll take a day or two to get it fully setup but its going well already :)

Chris

I have vbulletincoders.com, but Chris you would have to get permission to use it from vbulletin.