Angry .Orgers

[vBSEO]

Hi everyone,

As discussed in my previous post here (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?p=817193#post817193), the preference of the Crawlability team would be for a supported commercial area here at vb.org in order to further support the community.

However, if you plan to launch a new forum as a centralized location for information on premium vB hacks, etc., we are prepared to support the effort.

I am willing to provide a portion of the funding required to launch and maintain the project including:

vB license fee
monthly hosting
advertising budget (AdWords, etc)
I will also make the Crawlability team available to assist with various tasks and provide promotion from www.vbseo.com (http://www.vbseo.com/). And, of course, the offer would not be complete without a free copy of vBSEO 2.2.0 for the forum. :rolleyes:

Please forward me a cost assessment when available.

P.S. (To the moderating team) Have discussions in the internal moderation forums reached any consensus on whether or not vb.org will consider creating an area for commercial promotion?

[TyleR]

Hi everyone,

As discussed in my previous post here (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?p=817193#post817193), the preference of the Crawlability team would be for a supported commercial area here at vb.org in order to further support the community.

However, if you plan to launch a new forum as a centralized location for information on premium vB hacks, etc., we are prepared to support the effort.

I am willing to provide a portion of the funding required to launch and maintain the project including:

vB license fee
monthly hosting
advertising budget (AdWords, etc)
I will also make the Crawlability team available to assist with various tasks and provide promotion from www.vbseo.com (http://www.vbseo.com/). And, of course, the offer would not be complete without a free copy of vBSEO 2.2.0 for the forum. :rolleyes:

Please forward me a cost assessment when available.

P.S. (To the moderating team) Have discussions in the internal moderation forums reached any consensus on whether or not vb.org will consider creating an area for commercial promotion?

o.O Wow.

[jmw]

Now that is what I call team work!

[noppid]

Do not be afraid, offering professional services is not the end of the world - it's simply opening up a new one that vBulletin customers can use to their advantage.

I think the opposite - I think that capitolism will determine the ultimate success or failure of individual works. If someone puts up a mod that isn't worth what is being asked for, then people won't buy it.

The marketplace (i.e. you, the customer) determine weather a product is worth it's price - not the publisher.

That is business in general. If a person needs vBulletin to have an official site for paid hacks to succeed, they have failed already!

This is way out of proportion IMO. All we need is a good introductions forum where anyone can post their resume. Tell the community who they are and their experience and show their contributions to the community and announce they are a professional and for hire if so.

End it there, we already can have links in our sigs to paid work. vBulletin is already putting lot up for us to benefit from if you look around.

Hi everyone,

As discussed in my previous post here (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?p=817193#post817193), the preference of the Crawlability team would be for a supported commercial area here at vb.org in order to further support the community.

However, if you plan to launch a new forum as a centralized location for information on premium vB hacks, etc., we are prepared to support the effort.

I am willing to provide a portion of the funding required to launch and maintain the project including:

vB license fee
monthly hosting
advertising budget (AdWords, etc)
I will also make the Crawlability team available to assist with various tasks and provide promotion from www.vbseo.com (http://www.vbseo.com/). And, of course, the offer would not be complete without a free copy of vBSEO 2.2.0 for the forum. :rolleyes:

Please forward me a cost assessment when available.

P.S. (To the moderating team) Have discussions in the internal moderation forums reached any consensus on whether or not vb.org will consider creating an area for commercial promotion?


No offence, but this is why this will fail. All the alpha minded folks will want control and be able to use it to their benefit. There will never be an objective way to pull this off. Favoritism will provail.

I can see why Jefsoft wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole!

[jmw]

That is business in general. If a person needs vBulletin to have an official site for paid hacks to succeed, they have failed already!


I believe you are totally wrong. This would make life easier for us majority of vbulletin owners, by dedicating our time to productive tasks, rather than wasting time chasing "some" coders to update their free and buggy scripts. Paid is the way to go. The world works with money. Throw money at the problem and everybody will be happy.

[The Geek]

Chris - count me in. Anything I can offer financialy or codeily.

Saying that, I would suggest that it would be wise to all get together in a forum or on IRC to discuss objectives and a forward plan. It could be foolish to be too hasty at this stage.

(saying that, im like a giddy 8 year old on x-mas eve ;) "just open the damn thing already!")

so we can count you then noppid ? ;)

[noppid]

I believe you are totally wrong. This would make us life easier and dedicate our time to other tasks, rather than wasting time chasing coders to update their buggy scripts.

Are we talking about the same thing?

If you have to chase a coder, you failed as a consumer. If you got free code that broke, then you got what you paid for!

If you want to pay for code and your coder can't show you a home site and or email address where you can find them, they you again failed as a consumer. I suggest you use folks with references that have been around at least a year, perhaps two or three and have an established site and customer base to prove their worth.

You don't need a special site to find that, you need to be a smart consumer.

[TyleR]

Chris - count me in. Anything I can offer financialy or codeily.

Saying that, I would suggest that it would be wise to all get together in a forum or on IRC to discuss objectives and a forward plan. It could be foolish to be too hasty at this stage.

(saying that, im like a giddy 8 year old on x-mas eve ;) "just open the damn thing already!")

so we can count you then noppid ? ;)

then get an IRC channel made and we will come :p :ninja:

[The Geek]

hehe. Not my bag baby. Hell, I havent been on IRC since I was introduced to mIRC in 1997 :)

Maybe if the above forum could be setup for initial discussions that would work best. Othersie I am more than happy to set up a private discussion forum at thevbgeek.com

[TyleR]

Othersie I am more than happy to set up a private discussion forum at thevbgeek.com

Go for it..since the one Chris has chose wont be up for a day or two :(

[Chris M]

hehe. Not my bag baby. Hell, I havent been on IRC since I was introduced to mIRC in 1997 :)

Maybe if the above forum could be setup for initial discussions that would work best. Othersie I am more than happy to set up a private discussion forum at thevbgeek.com

I'm installing the forum as I type this :) (stupid slow internet connection -.-)

Should be up within the next hour for discussion purposes :)

Chris

[noppid]

I'm installing the forum as I type this :)

Should be up within the next hour for discussion purposes :)

Chris

Hurry up! :p

This is getting interesting.

[MPDev]

No offence, but this is why this will fail.

Seems a bit premature to declare failure based on people's willingness to get involved and when no planning has been done.

[jmw]

Great! I'm sick of free hacks! I got the wallet ready! In 6 months let's look back and see whether was worth it or not. You guys are gonna become gazillionaires! We need you!!

[Chris M]

Hurry up! :p

This is getting interesting.

I'm prodding my ADSL modem but I don't think it's helping any :p

Chris

[eXtremeTim]

So far we already have the domain (www.vbulletinservices.com) and if anyone wants to buy the others and hand them over, it won't be turned down ;) :D

I'm using my licence for it, and Zachery has provided us with some hosting, so we're raring to go :)

It'll take a day or two to get it fully setup but its going well already :)

Chris

I am behind you guys all the way. I will more then likely be having a nice section on my site as well just becuase of all the other crap it is gonna offer it just makes sense.

[The Geek]

Thats great Chris, let us know when we can start discussions.

[noppid]

Seems a bit premature to declare failure based on people's willingness to get involved and when no planning has been done.

I declared going down a particular avenue would bring failure. I believe that there would be "insiders" and bias going with that plan.

I did not say this venture "would" fail at all possible inceptions of it.

It's gonna be a hard site to manage, most sites don't invite people to post out bound links. This forum will be mostly professionals saying I have this hack over here and linking to it.

I know I'm not posting my for sale code anywhere. How about the rest of you?

[KW802]

then get an IRC channel made and we will come :p :ninja:I'm at work.... no IRC for me until I get hom. :tired:


Edit: Err... make that "until I get home."

[MPDev]

I know I'm not posting my for sale code anywhere. How about the rest of you?

I doubt anyone would pay for minor code modifications or simple mods themselves; then again, the market would determine that, wouldn't it? But there are some very successful products which integrate with vBulletin that are available for purchase which would fit into the category of Paid Addons.

[soniceffect]

LOL ..... everything goes paid eventually it`s a fact of life ....

So is the fact that everything comes back :) ... Sourceforge .. Firefox .. Winamp ... Opera ... All opensource/freeware, and closing in on the paying market ....

Personal opinion.. I don`t blame you guys for goin for it, but the world is not short of coders or people with the willingness to learn how to code.

Seem to also have heard a lot on the subject of 'professionalism' .... If someone releases a free hack, is this classed as an unprofessional and I quote 'buggy' product? Some programs I would classify under this catagory, however some I would most definatly not. Lets take explorer for example. Not a legal peice of software and buggy as hell. Thought I would pick that one as an example since you are all web developers and probably know this more than most.

:)

[jmw]

Justice is being done for all non-coders.

[Chris M]

Don't get me wrong here - I am still most likely going to be releasing my code modifications for free here on vB.org and supporting the free community - There is a need for it and we wouldn't have any paid modifications without it...

But I recognise the need for somewhere like I'm trying to get setup; Without it we'll lose people to other forum softwares and eventually lose more coders that turn commercial :(

I am not saying I'll never have any paid modifications; I'm just saying that anything I release here will remain free :)

Chris

[MPDev]

I did not say this venture "would" fail at all possible inceptions of it.

Actually, you were pretty clear about what you meant when you wrote, "No offence, but this is why this will fail."

I think that an organized and well thought out approach will ultimately provide a valuable resource for vBulletin owners and may actually improve the level of products being offered.

We've already proven that paid addons for vBulletin can be very successful; why ignore the marketplace?

[Lottis]

I have used hacks witch is free and i have paid fore it if i really want it.
This is my choise, and thank good that i can have this choise.
v.org has a very large group of really good coders. The most of them is giving us help right away and keeps up with the upgrades.

There is one time i got a littel confused about a hack. And that was because it was promissed. Promissed and promissed. And in the end the hack was usless without the rest.

It is not quite easy to be a newbi here, because some of you are so good with the coding that you forget that not everyone is just as good.
I really is thankfull fore all the hacks you guyes and girls make. But i did a mistace by making a thread once to say thank you to a coder. Because i was impressed by his fast work and his devoting to be a great coder.
A angry moderators told me that, that was the reason we have pms. ;)

Ok, i understand that. But sometime you coders need to hear that you are aprishiated perhaps.

Sorry fore my bad english, just wanted to say my 2 cents. :)

[noppid]

Actually, you were pretty clear about what you meant when you wrote, "No offence, but this is why this will fail."

I think that an organized and well thought out approach will ultimately provide a valuable resource for vBulletin owners and may actually improve the level of products being offered.

We've already proven that paid addons for vBulletin can be very successful; why ignore the marketplace?

And I just explained the one "this". :ermm:

But it looks to me that is not going to be the case already. I like that a non paid hack person is going to try and run the forum.

Don't try and twist my one disagreement into being a doom sayer, It's not working.

I'm eager to see where this goes. I have no reason to not embarce a place to hawk my work.

[smacklan]

I'm at work.... no IRC for me until I get hom. :tired:


Edit: Err... make that "until I get home."
Time to leave work early Kevin ;)

[TyleR]

I like that a non paid hack person is going to try and run the forum.

And how do you know he's the only one in on it? its not even up yet..keep such comments to yourself until you can actually prove something.

[Chris M]

http://www.vbulletinservices.com/forum/index.php

Forum is up for idea discussion :)

Chris

[MPDev]

Chris, might want to stick an index.php in your root.

[noppid]

And how do you know he's the only one in on it? its not even up yet..keep such comments to yourself until you can actually prove something.

You just want a pissing match, find another to play.

Cheers.

[The Geek]

I dont think he meant anything negative by that.

Lets all chill - we dont even know if we are all on the same page yet :)

[jmw]

Guys come down. The inevitable is coming. To our success!!!

[Lottis]

Guys come down. The inevitable is coming. To our success!!!
You are showing off like a smartass. If you have that mutch money, why dont you hire one fulltime. There is a lot of good candidates. :rolleyes:

[Chris M]

Ok - As excited about this as we all are, let's drop the tone some ok?

The next bad word from anyone gets this thread closed ;)

Chris

[Lottis]

Ok - As excited about this as we all are, let's drop the tone some ok?

The next bad word from anyone gets this thread closed ;)

Chris
Sorry, but i dident find a more propper word.It wont happend again, i think. Perhaps. :o

[Chris M]

Sorry, but i dident find a more propper word.It wont happend again, i think. Perhaps. :o

I wasn't solely referring to you :)

Chris

[Lottis]

I wasn't solely referring to you :)

Chris
Ok, then im not sorry fore calling him what i did. :devious:

[immortal21]

If you guys need hosting I own a hosting company also, so just let me know.

[Brad]

Lots of replies to this one over night, havn't had time to catch up on them all yet but I have skimmed over them. :)

The staff here is currently having a discussion about the issue, just wanted to let it be known so you guys know you're not begin ignored. :)

[jward]

Thank-you for the update Brad - I'm looking forward to learning the results of your discussion.

[noppid]

This has taken on a life of it's own already it seems.

[Paul M]

Lots of replies to this one over night, havn't had time to catch up on them all yet but I have skimmed over them. :)

The staff here is currently having a discussion about the issue, just wanted to let it be known so you guys know you're not begin ignored. :)Too many replies to read, but it seems the staff (some of them anyway) have set up another forum between themselves. What is going on exactly, is this a breakaway ?

[Chris M]

Too many replies to read, but it seems the staff (some of them anyway) have set up another forum between themselves. What is going on exactly, is this a breakaway ?

No this is not a breakaway :)

Chris

[Protoman]

pointless post..

Did you know it's spelled ogre!
or did you mean .org 'ers
so are we all .org'ers or ogres? :D

[noppid]

pointless post..

Did you know it's spelled ogre!
or did you mean .org 'ers
so are we all .org'ers or ogres? :D

I think we'll all be .org'ers for a long time to come. Change is hard.

[The Geek]

pointless post..

Did you know it's spelled ogre!
or did you mean .org 'ers
so are we all .org'ers or ogres? :D

yup, I havent mastered the fine art of making such profound posts as this yet.

Than again im trying!
Aside from Being Mr. Bad Grammer, there actually was wit planted in there - perhaps when I make better posts it will come out clearer.

Thanks!

[Hanif]

pointless post..

Did you know it's spelled ogre!
or did you mean .org 'ers
so are we all .org'ers or ogres

I think we all need a little bit of an orgy..a food orgy, foam party orgy, or fun orgy sadly nothing sexual as the under 18's here wouldn't be allowed :-) Before this thread gets way tooo serious.

Hanif

[Paul M]

No this is not a breakaway :)

Chris
Oh, okay. I just saw a link to the site, looked at showgroups and it seems to be the same 'staff' as here (minus a few). I guess I'll work out what it's all for when I have time to read some more posts.

[Christine]

Guys,

Sorry to be a wet blanket here, but the whole 'licensing' thing hasn't been addressed (that I have seen). vB uses the licensing system to stem piracy (as best they can) by only allowing licensed users to download.

Wouldn't selling hacks to forums that could potentially be pirated not be a problem for Jelsoft in this?

[MJM]

Some thoughts ...
It's a different scenerio if you have a not for profit .org and then create a paid venue to raise funds

vB.com is a commercial enterprise that provides .org as a free service.
This provides ...
- a place to direct non support requests that vB are not willing = nor obliged to provide.
- a place where a volunteer community infuses new ideas and applications into vB software.

vB.com benefits greatly from it's community of free mod/hack/plugin providers, which expands the versatility and consumer base of it's product.

If vb had hired a team to do this work it would have cost big bucks, which could have either
- spread their resources out too thin and could have been detrimental to the development of the core software
or
- put themselves into a favorable position of having a product with many additional new features/plugins, and added income income from specialized plugins...

Of note ... vB.com has not yet provided any plugins, free or paid.
But we know they are going to ... to what extent, we don't know.

If vB.com is to keep on top of the competitive edge it will need to periodically offer free new plugins, formerly also known as ... new features.
If plugins cost more and more, the consumer will shop around for an application that includes the plugins that they need.

vB may offer more advanced paid plugins, tailored to a specific consumer audience or need, but there will always be competition from other free and paid products.

vB needs to find a way to further reward and provide incentive to it's community of mod/plugin providers.

I would have hoped that tried and trustworthy mods/plugins would have made it into a vB support arena, ... ie, vB provides paid staff to assist with free/stable plugin support.

~ Mark

[FASherman]

Guys,

Sorry to be a wet blanket here, but the whole 'licensing' thing hasn't been addressed (that I have seen). vB uses the licensing system to stem piracy (as best they can) by only allowing licensed users to download.

Wouldn't selling hacks to forums that could potentially be pirated not be a problem for Jelsoft in this?
Nor does it need to be addressed. To be blunt, that concern belongs to Jelsoft and no one else. If they choose to be part of the solution, then I'm sure no one will have any complaint to a download area open to licensed users only.

But if they choose not to be part of the solution, then they can't reasonably expect any developer to make Jelsof's concerns theirs.

[plubius]

It would be interesting that after you money seekers have made your wad and Jelsoft pulls all of the licences and goes out of business.

[Chris M]

Guys,

Sorry to be a wet blanket here, but the whole 'licensing' thing hasn't been addressed (that I have seen). vB uses the licensing system to stem piracy (as best they can) by only allowing licensed users to download.

Wouldn't selling hacks to forums that could potentially be pirated not be a problem for Jelsoft in this?

vBulletinservices.com will not be selling hacks...

Chris

[immortal21]

Yeah, I don't think the commercial product companies would sell the forum one product and then they sell it...that dosen't make sense.
Just a place that has information and links to commercial products would be the way to go, hell even free ones, whatever floats your boat.

[EasyTarget]

Personally I have noticed a significant difference in the quality and the support of paid hacks.
There are hacks out there that are of very good quality and free but they are a minority. Most free hacks are significantly worse than paid ones, and that is quite logical. Maybe I just notice it more when I pay money for something and it sucks or support for it sucks and if I get something for free and it sucks and/or support sucks it doesn't make much of a difference to me.

And my point wasn't that money makes no difference, only that sometimes it doesn't matter if someone is getting paid to work, if they're not good at their job or they have poor work ethic then its likely their product will reflect that.
__________________________________________________ ____________

Begin new post (merged)
Looks like vbulletinservices.com will just be another place for people to advertise their hacks. I must say as a consumer I'm more interested in a .org type site with paid hacks.

I think that would stop coders from using one site to advertise something then having copy hacks from other coders at their personal site. If its all taken care of on one site you can use the professional type courtesy you see here between a lot of coders by not reproducing many hacks, giving credit to shared/inspired work, etc.

Maybe livewire can incorporate something like this into his vbhackers.com site?
Make some paypal mod that in order to download the hack you have to pay first or something. Maybe a royalty share where the site gets a small % of each sale, or a 1 time fee for releasing hacks there (or per hack?)

I also think it'd be good to have the site be run/owned by non vb staff. Or maybe have some on the staff but make the head be someone independent. (I don't really know why I think it'd be good actually, but maybe to avoid any conflict of interests or accusations)

anyways, that's my 2 cents.

[MJM]

I don't use the vB reputation system, so don't know whether it could be used to rate coders who have provided free hacks.

There must be a way to rate, and give more commercial exposure to contributors. I for one would be more willing to seek the (edit: paid) services or products of free plugin providers that I use

We have installed our first plugin and anticipate installing more, and it would be very helpful to have somewhere to view profiles of free hack/mod/plugin providers based on certain criteria of quality and integrity of their contributions to vB.org.

Easier said then done?

[cinq]

*side note:

interesting to note how mods have removed links to my site and labelling it as spam, even though they are not posted by me, nor instigated by me.
hmm.
i wonder what this means.

[EasyTarget]

the links in this thread or elsewhere?
and what site.. ** Link clearly only posted to spam **?

[Boofo]

I apologize. I meant "some of the geeks". I hope something good comes out of this thread.

Vbulletin should get rid of all this FREE hack non-sense which doesn't benefit the majority of vbulletin customers and frustrates them. WE NEED PAID HACKS! Free hacks are low quality. Free hacks are for phpbb and other low quality forums, not for gorgeous and powerful vb.

I bet if somebody opens a vbulletin paid hack site, this forum would die.

Ok, I was going to stay out of this but now it has gone too far. ;)

15 posts and now you're an expert on whether this site would survive or not? LOL

This site is not going to die or dwindle no matter how successful or not a paid hacks site would be. This place has survived a heck of a lot more than this and is still flourishing. Over 100,000 members strong and the few that have replied in this thread are going to bring it down? Wake up guys and gals! ;)

@ jmw - If you don't like free hacks, don't use them, but please don't try to belittle the authors that do them. A hack doesn't have to be paid or big to be good if it does what you want, free or not.

Good luck guys, I hope you do at least well enough to survive, but I have a feeling that egos will abound and we will see you all back here soon. This has happened before, where authors have gone out and set up sites to sell addons, and some have done very well, but the majority end up back here sooner or later. ;)

[Boofo]

Oh, okay. I just saw a link to the site, looked at showgroups and it seems to be the same 'staff' as here (minus a few). I guess I'll work out what it's all for when I have time to read some more posts.

Don't worry Paul, you won't find me there, not even on visiting days. ;)

[Paul M]

Free hacks are low quality. Free hacks are for phpbb and other low quality forumsOn your bike you muppet. :mad:

[Lycan]

@ jmw - If you don't like free hacks, don't use them, but please don't try to belittle the authors that do them. A hack doesn't have to be paid or big to be good if it does what you want, free or not.

And let's not forget something, some, of those "free hacks" were made by the same people who are now talking about going commercial

somehow i doubt he thought about it enough to realize that by dissing all free hacks hes also dissing the people he's been so....enthusiasticly.....encouraging and supporting

<moseys through the thread and takes all of the "2 cents" to go to buy a burger>

[Lottis]

One question. Is this based on jmw comments, that you guyes get so exited?
Ore is this confirmed that there are so many who have the opertunity to bye hacks?
Im so happy that there are so many good free hackers here. Who provide exelent stuff that me myself cant do.
More power to yaah.


"Originally Posted by jmw
Free hacks are low quality. Free hacks are for phpbb and other low quality forums"

This is a really stupid ignorens thing to say.

[Lea Verou]

I apologize. I meant "some of the geeks". I hope something good comes out of this thread.

Vbulletin should get rid of all this FREE hack non-sense which doesn't benefit the majority of vbulletin customers and frustrates them. WE NEED PAID HACKS! Free hacks are low quality. Free hacks are for phpbb and other low quality forums, not for gorgeous and powerful vb.

I bet if somebody opens a vbulletin paid hack site, this forum would die.

If you don't like free hacks then DON'T USE THEM!!!!
Oh and by the way thanks for insulting ALL the coders here, including those that have gone commercial.
We release stuff here that we could have kept private (and some do) to have something unique in our forums - but no, we like to share, and this is the "thanks" we get. oook...
I could say a lot more but I don't want to be considered "flaming". :devious:

[Lottis]

Lots of replies to this one over night, havn't had time to catch up on them all yet but I have skimmed over them. :)

The staff here is currently having a discussion about the issue, just wanted to let it be known so you guys know you're not begin ignored. :)
I think there is a big problem. The staff, ore most of them seem to already made up there mind.

[ludachris]

As a website owner/developer who depends on vB and the hacks written for it, I can see the value in allowing commercial hacks to be displayed on this site. However, I also see the danger in allowing commercial hacks to wipe out the free ones. It's already pretty difficult to get a hack written for free around here since the "payed request" section opened. Things have already changed around here. There's no denying it. Commercial hacks are here to stay, and coders will begin devoting more time to it and less time to the free stuff.

A solution that makes everyone happy? Allow commercial hacks to be promoted here, but ONLY if there is a dumbed-down free version of the same hack available from the coder (released at the same time). This way, they are still offering a service to the users here AND are able to promote their commercial version for a chance to be payed for their time. This should ensure that the coders continue to spend time producing free hacks while they devote time to the commercial hacks too. This should at least keep them from completely dropping all work on free hacks if they want to be able to promote their commercial hacks here.

Thoughts?

[The Geek]

Though I see what you are saying its like making a requirement for the users of free hacks to buy every third one.

Some work can not be made LITE and supporting and maintaining LITE and PRO versions can drive you salivatingly mad. People should not be forced to give up their time for nothing. If they can, then we should support them, if not we should support them. Either way we should support those that offer us tools we feel make vBulletin better.

Thanks

[noppid]

It's kinda hard to dumb down a hack.

Plus ca change
Plus c'est la meme chose

[eXtremeTim]

I have a few hacks in the works some which can have lite versions and some that cant.

Running two version of the same hack can be crazy mad at times lol.

[Ramsesx]

Don't read everything it's too much, but my opinion if the price is in a right proportion to the hack it is ok for me. It makes me only angry if the price is more than vb itself.
On the other side, if everything needed to be for free, products as the vbadvanced gallery or links directory would be not existing.
And it's right, if they use this forum to promote the products, they should spend some bucks for it.

[Talisman]

Looks to me that many of the commercially-minded coders have solved their own issues by setting up another website where they can go into full-on promotion mode together. That's a nice solution -- let the lucrative market for paid hacks/etc. sustain itself. There's plenty of "business" as a vB-spinoff to be shared and plenty of truly talented hackers to produce vB-related products and services for those who are willing to pay $$$.

Now, this frees up the vb.org site from having to keep trying to resolve these little squabbles. Maybe we can do away with the friction that results from different subgroups pulling us off in different directions.

Those who wish volunteer their time and share their expertise with less experienced vB board owners can focus better on doing just that.... as it should be.

[FASherman]

Looks to me that many of the commercially-minded coders have solved their own issues by setting up another website where they can go into full-on promotion mode together. That's a nice solution -- let the lucrative market for paid hacks/etc. sustain itself. There's plenty of "business" as a vB-spinoff to be shared and plenty of truly talented hackers to produce vB-related products and services for those who are willing to pay $$$.

Now, this frees up the vb.org site from having to keep trying to resolve these little squabbles. Maybe we can do away with the friction that results from different subgroups pulling us off in different directions.

Those who wish volunteer their time and share their expertise with less experienced vB board owners can focus better on doing just that.... as it should be.
Thats not the problem we're trying to address. The issue is how to get the information to the VB user base. I don't want to have to search the internet to find a shopping cart add-on for VB, or a download manager or whatever I'm looking for.

If I stumble onto the site, I still have no idea how reputable the coder is and how good the support is. If it sucks, do you really think he/she is going to let that information remain public?

We're talking about a directory of VB add-ons with some type of feedback/rating system independent of the coders.

[Talisman]

Thats not the problem we're trying to address. The issue is how to get the information to the VB user base. I don't want to have to search the internet to find a shopping cart add-on for VB, or a download manager or whatever I'm looking for.

That's a problem that ALSO solves itself. If you guys set up a centralized website for promoting commercial hacks or shared links to other vB-related commercial sites that's reasonably well managed ... then it's good reputation and satified customer base will make it a successful venture. All you have to do is produce the same high quality hacks you've been doing all along and give your customers the support they need.

It's not that hard to promote it yourself... a good percentage of your fellow commercial coders will also be some of your best customers.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

It makes me only angry if the price is more than vb itself.
vB itself is sold thousands of times, so costs are spread among many customers. Custom scripts are only sold once or a few times. The costs of developing (some hacks might take weeks/months to develop) can only be spread over a few sales. So it is not surprise that they can cost more then vB itself.

[MJM]

MarcoH64 wrote ... (some hacks might take weeks/months to develop)

How typical is this for hacks provided here? ... taking out of the equation, coders who take their time, (because that's the deal with freebies), and those who just don't have time to tackle it?

Most mods I'm interested in are essentially to improve specific functionalities of vB.
I am using or looking at other more extensive software which integrates or functions alongside vb in specific ways, but I would consider these somewhat different to applications that are only modeled to work with vB.

~ Mark

[Marco van Herwaarden]

You would be surprised how much time has been spend on some hacks. And i am not only talking about the obvious ones like the big portals.

If someone has a specific wish for a hack or can make money out of this hack, i think it is more then reasonable that some money is asked. If it is somehting that is widely asked by the whole community and can not be used to make money, i often just create it for free, otherwise they will have to pay (sometimes just a symbolic amount).

Even with hacks that are sold for higher prices (let's say more then the costs of vB), if you would calculate the hourly income from it (counting coding, giving support, etc..) it would be a price that most people would not accept for a normal job.

[MJM]

Thanks for the insight! I can see that a lot of time and effort goes into testing and support.
I'll do my bit and offer a donation for each working free mod I install.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Maybe if more people would donate, there wouldn't be as much payed hacks as there are now. 1 single payed (small, cheap) hack will give me more income then 10 free (donation ware) hacks that have been released more then a year. As a coder you can be happy if you get a single ($5-20) donation on a hack. Not something to complain about, as a coder you have choosen to release it for free, but just to give an indication.

[vBintense]

if everything needed to be for free, products as the vbadvanced gallery or links directory would be not existing.
In vb2 there was a very good gallery free, there was stores, arcades, top lists and on and on and on.... All big huge hacks free with in the community.

But I believe if this goes thru and they can promote their business on org I will personally seek another place. .org was based on sharing, helping, community a place to share hacks (not sell them). Putting this in place (at least in my view) will destroy everything .org is meant to be.

Those who make the hacks that are pay did those for the money, if they was for the interest in the community or anything then it would be free and something they made regardless for their own site.

That is how it used to be, people made something for their site and where nice enough to share the code they had altered, but as everything in life greed and money rule.

[The Geek]

Insane - im sorry you feel that way however its coming from someone who has given 1 small modification to the communinty. A good one, however it pales in comparison to some hacks that pro coders do. Hell, GARS is thousands and thousands of lines and I have worked on it now for 5 months (and its still not done!).
Even the stuff I have released here FOC is upwards of thousands of lines. If you want to take your bat and ball home because you only want this to be a place where people share projects that are 10-100 lines long and take an hour to a week to write then surly you must realise you have capped the potential of what can be offered here? And as such capped the potential of what customers can get from .org.

Thanks

[Boofo]

His hack is just as important here as anyone else's. Were your first few hacks even near what your potential is now? I don't think so. That is very arrogant of you to even try and compare your code or anyone else's and his. That is why I am so dead against this. Too many egos and not rembereing how things were when you first started out here.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

I would not have much objections against a coder who releases most of his work for free, and have 1 special project that he is selling. The 'problem' starts when people start using vb.org only to sell their payed projects. But it would be almost impossable to catch this in rules.

[The Geek]

I think you need to chill Boofo - I said i thought his hack was quite good. What I expressed frustration over is the serious lack of empathy and understanding from people who:

1- Don't already give to the community
2- Offer a couple of small modifications

To many people that fall into the above points - they just expect you to produce projects that take months to do and thousands of lines of code and then to support it - for free or else they are going home... thats not arrogant?

Boofo - you are always going to be right. If Jelsoft doesn't grow .org then it you will be justified for your fire and brimstone. If they do it and it fails - its because of your fire and brimstone, if they do it and succeed its because of all the warnings about your fire and brimstone. Thats the great benefit of being a doomsayer - you've covered your butt from all angles :)

[vBintense]

Actually a lot of my hack was help from Kirby (what can I say I must be honest) in implementing a few things that rid of file edits. And Boofo at pushing it to be no file edits. And others for providing alternative templates.

And your right I have yet to have time to contribute a lot to the community, although 89 or so have enjoyed my release. And the ‘thank you’ I get from the first person made the time worth wild.

But you missed the entire point of it, which is ok but I shall repeat it. My release was something I needed for my community (article system was to pricy for the little it offered that I ‘needed’) and my solution was what I needed. So I did in the vb.org spirit (or what I thought it was perhaps I am wrong) and shared my work.

I have a few things planned for my community in time to come and as I do I will both share it on vb org and learn how to improve it. That is if vb org does not go commercial.

Believe it or not all these paid add ons could be easily done if someone wished to put forth the time seeing as they run off vbulletins heart, and as for support if you look at my thread even Kirby who not only helped but provided support on a hack not even in his name.

[Boofo]

I think you need to chill Boofo - I said i thought his hack was quite good. What I expressed frustration over is the serious lack of empathy and understanding from people who:

1- Don't already give to the community
2- Offer a couple of small modifications

To many people that fall into the above points - they just expect you to produce projects that take months to do and thousands of lines of code and then to support it - for free or else they are going home... thats not arrogant?

Boofo - you are always going to be right. If Jelsoft doesn't grow .org then it you will be justified for your fire and brimstone. If they do it and it fails - its because of your fire and brimstone, if they do it and succeed its because of all the warnings about your fire and brimstone. Thats the great benefit of being a doomsayer - you've covered your butt from all angles :)

I don't need to chill, you do. You try to come across as this kind, caring individual that wants to give so much to the org when in reality, you are looking to make money off of it. No matter how you color it, you belittle those that don't write major hacks, either because they don't have the knowledge and skill yet, or because they are new and haven't had enough time to do something of that caliber. There are those hear that DO some major hacks and they are still releasing them for free. Andreas and the Journal Hack comes to mind.

And it seems that there are more against the idea of this thread than are for it. That should tell you something. ;)

[Paul M]

Not everyone feels the need to write 'large hacks'.

In fact I don't write anything specifically for .org - I do stuff for the forum I am an administrator on, and then release it here (FOC) for anyone else to make use of if they want (and looking at my stats, it seems plenty do).

[MPDev]

Ok, I was going to stay out of this but now it has gone too far. ;)

15 posts and now you're an expert on whether this site would survive or not? LOL

This site is not going to die or dwindle no matter how successful or not a paid hacks site would be. This place has survived a heck of a lot more than this and is still flourishing. Over 100,000 members strong and the few that have replied in this thread are going to bring it down? Wake up guys and gals! ;)

@ jmw - If you don't like free hacks, don't use them, but please don't try to belittle the authors that do them. A hack doesn't have to be paid or big to be good if it does what you want, free or not.

Good luck guys, I hope you do at least well enough to survive, but I have a feeling that egos will abound and we will see you all back here soon. This has happened before, where authors have gone out and set up sites to sell addons, and some have done very well, but the majority end up back here sooner or later. ;)

I don't think anyone is advocating leaving this site; there simply appears to be a demand for commercial addons for vBulletin and as such it doesn't seem unreasonable to try and put together the "ultimate resource" for them.

[Boofo]

Yes, a demand from a small groups of members. Adding commercial hacks and the headaches that go with policing them isn't going to make this site any more ultimate than it is now. It will cause more problems that it will fix.

And I don't believe it is right to take advantage of new members or the org by trying to make a quick buck off of them.

[MPDev]

I don't need to chill, you do.

You can be pretty abrasive, so if you are surprised when someone suggests you might need to "chill", you might want to reconsider your wording a little more carefully. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make your heavy handed remarks appropriate.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to make a buck from your efforts. Like I said the marketplace will determine the value of your efforts, if nobody likes what you've done and won't pay for it, then you fail.

This site isn't going to suffer from the addition of commercial add-ons to its pages, nor will it suffer from another site being developed to promote what isn't allowed here. Either way this isn't about this site, it's about fulfilling customers wants - if .org doesn't want to offering something that has obvious value, then what do you expect?

Adding commercial hacks and the headaches that go with policing them isn't going to make this site any more ultimate than it is now. It will cause more problems that it will fix.

And adding styles to this site wasn't a headache?

Either way, this site won't suffer. It's simply a question of what resources you want to privde to your members.

[Boofo]

Apparently you haven't read the whole thread. There are more people NOT wanting this than do. That should speak for itself.

As far as my so called "abrasiveness" goes, I was, and am, no more abrasive than the post I was quoting.

[MPDev]

Actually, I have read the whole thread and I wasn't aware that there was a poll in place. Does it require a majority to make it useful? If even a minority find it benefitial, is it still considered a benefit?

I didn't start this thread and my only point is that being the "ultimate" resources for vBulletin shouldn't necessarily stop at something being "free". I release free products as well as develop paid-addons, are either development efforts less worthy than the other?

[soniceffect]

I very much agree with the above .... .org should be as I always has been, a place for people to share there work not to sell there work. I`m not saying people shouldn`t be able to charge for there work, in fact I agree that they should be able to. I just don`t think that .org is the place to do this.

I use this site to download the hacks I need for my site, and to learn from then in the hope that one day I will be able to put back into the vbulletin community that in which I have learnt. Personally I have pretty much the same opinion as above, I would go elsewhere as advertised/paid hacks are not what I came here for.

[Regs]

IMHO, Jelsoft may need to step in and perhaps install some new staff members that are more open to progressive ideas.

Some members of the current crew are getting a little stale in their thought processes.

There is a market for professional addons, full-stop. Nurture it and the quality of offerings will improve. That's not to say the FOC isn't quality but I and others would like more choice. Under the current system, this just isn't possible.

(1) nobody owes anyone anything here. To imply that coders learn everything there is to know about coding here is far-fetched, especially with the recently released API docs from Jelsoft.

(2) there are over 100,000 members here and Boofo wants to imply that the majority are fully against allowing commercial interests. Umm, OK.

(3) I am agreeing with MPDev here so you must know how wrong your position must be! :D (Hi MP, good luck with the new kid - we had a boy on the 1st :D )

Cheers,

~Regs.

[noppid]

If a product sucks, this forum will be overwhelmed with BS complaints.

If a coder sucks, this forum will be overwhelmed with BS complaints.

If a coder discontinues or disappears, this forum will be overwhelmed with BS complaints.

If money is ripped, this forum will be overwhelmed with BS complaints.

There are alot of avenues to get your work advertised. This place has enough politics. With free, you get what you paid for and know the rules.

I'd love free advertising for my work and there are plenty of ways to get it. My success does not hinge on forcing a rule change here which will cause more work for volunteers. That's not how buisness works. If your's does, you're already failing.

[davidw]

(2) there are over 100,000 members here and Boofo wants to imply that the majority are fully against allowing commercial interests. Umm, OK.I think I speak for a majority of members when I say that if we were made of money, we might think differently.
Let me clarify - If we had the money, we would be more inclined to want to purchase commercial hacks.

[MPDev]

Given that the "majority" of people here (read 100%) purchased vBulletin, I sincerely doubt you can make the case that nobody has any money to buy anything else. I suspect if that were true, they would have elected to use a "free" forum to begin with. So let's not play the "can't afford it, so it doesn't belong" card again, it doesn't hold any water here.

[KW802]

I think I speak for a majority of members when I say that if we were made of money, we might think differently.
Let me clarify - If we had the money, we would be more inclined to want to purchase commercial hacks.So far the "majority" hasn't spoken (since there is no poll) and nobody has been elected to speak for them.

[Chris M]

Given that the "majority" of people here (read 100%) purchased vBulletin, I sincerely doubt you can make the case that nobody has any money to buy anything else. I suspect if that were true, they would have elected to use a "free" forum to begin with. So let's not play the "can't afford it, so it doesn't belong" card again, it doesn't hold any water here.

Actually not all 100% of users here are licenced ;)

Chris

[davidw]

Given that the "majority" of people here (read 100%) purchased vBulletin, I sincerely doubt you can make the case that nobody has any money to buy anything else. I suspect if that were true, they would have elected to use a "free" forum to begin with. So let's not play the "can't afford it, so it doesn't belong" card again, it doesn't hold any water here.Excuse me for being offended that I for one can't afford your $$ hacks. It took 12 months for me to afford vBulletin... so what makes you "coders for dollars" think that people like me are made of money? Just because you can afford it doesn"t mean you should have a holier-than-thou attitude towards those who cannot. You have no right to judge me and for the sake of arguement I used a free forum to begin with - that is until I could afford to purchase vbulletin.

So far the "majority" hasn't spoken (since there is no poll) and nobody has been elected to speak for them.I will agree to that.

And one last thing...

Last year, I made $2,800 before taxes (yes - less than $3k) for the entire year.
This year, I'm lucky to have made (before taxes) $8,300 with one month left. I live on food stamps and work my butt off at $7.50/hour to put food and clothing on my family of 4. My two children (one just born less than 2 months ago) are on WIC. I am not rich, nor am I well off, as some people might assume.

I saved up for what I have now. With the help of some friends, I'd say we're doing pretty good.

That's all I have to say. Just think about that the next time you assume that because we paid for vbulletin, we can afford to pay for hacks as well.

'nuff said

* christianb unsubscribes from this thread.

[Xplorer4x4]

Given that the "majority" of people here (read 100%) purchased vBulletin, I sincerely doubt you can make the case that nobody has any money to buy anything else. I suspect if that were true, they would have elected to use a "free" forum to begin with. So let's not play the "can't afford it, so it doesn't belong" card again, it doesn't hold any water here.

Wrong for the second time. You have no idea what it is like for the person on the other end.

[MPDev]

Wrong for the second time. You have no idea what it is like for the person on the other end.

Then how can I be wrong? And, technically, I only said I didn't think he could make the case and made no judgement about the "person on the other end".

[Talisman]

This site was created as a place where licensed vB owners could share modifications - for free - to support each other. And that's how vb.org needs to stay. Just because elaborate hacks and add-ons can be sold and some so-called "professional" coders resent the NO SOLICITING sign over the door is no reason to change the core purpose of this site.

Look at all the commercial sites out there now that function for the sole purpose of selling vB hacks, styles, and add-ons. If we let those folks turn this .org site into some Jelsoft-supported clearing house for all of those other, competing commercial efforts ... then where else are vB license owners supposed to go to share FREE hacks and customizations?

This is the only place possible that can allow board owners to give support to each other. Don't mess this up.

[MPDev]

I certainly don't resent that paid add-ons are not embraced on this site, I fully recognize that the owners are free to set their own agenda and follow it. I participate in the spirit in which the forum operates and I offer modifications I've made to others at no cost. I've never complained or suggested that I wouldn't participate otherwise.

But knowing that every site evolves over time to accommodate its members, I think there is room for promoting paid add-ons. That doesn't change my opinion about the value offered by this site, I just happen to think that the market has matured enough that it should be a consideration. I'm more than willing to discuss the pros/cons in a reasonable manner - if someone says they don't belong because nobody can afford them, I would suggest otherwise based on my 5 years of selling add-ons for vBulletin. If someone says they don't belong because it's too much work, then I would compare it to adding styles and ask is it really that much more effort? If you don't want to have the discussion, then don't try to use excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny - just say you won't allow them because you don't want them here. There is no argument to counter that.

[MJM]

Nobody HAS to start with vB. There's many free alternatives, and the only person that can justifiably complain about the cost of vB is someone living in a 3rd world country earning $1 a day.
The fact is, when it comes to investing $$$ for interactive internet software, the cost of vB is a pittance compared to all the other expenses involved, especially if one takes into account the time and effort needed to develop a site.

Pre 2000, I never wrote period, never touched a keyboard/computer or used the net.
My interest was never about the computer internet, rather, how to use this medium to share specific interests, ideas and experiences with others around the world.
I had wrongly presumed in 2000 that internet technology was more advanced more user-friendly ... To the contrary, it has been a wild ride along the razors edge of technological innovation, and after 5 years I'm somewhat battered but 90+ % satisfied with the results.
It's the 10% that I may need mods/plugins.

If I end up having to pay for some, so be it, I'll start saving up.

But the fact that many have offered their mods for free should never be underestimated (in this dog eat dog world we live in)

It's unfortunate that to hear that few bother to contribute with a donation.

A suggestion ... auto include a succinct line encouraging installers to donate.

Think of how other NP org's phrase things in their fund drives.

There are many benefits to supporting/contributing to free services.
The community spirit is one.

I'm very glad that the vB.org community exists, as this is where I can learn all about the cutting edge, far out stuff that can be done with vB.

For a starter, I would like to see an easy method/ directory/list of coders and the free hacks they have produced.
If each coder had a link to their site, with paid versions, so much the better!

I personally will base my mod choices on the track record of what a coder has contributed to vB.org AND of other vB/non vb related products that they may provide.

Let's face it, when you use a software app of any kind it's like entering a marriage of which divorce could be brutal.
We using vB are fortunate, with I hope, few divorces.
And though we might gripe about some things not panning out as anticipated, we can always come to vB.org for therapy ;)

~ Mark

[Talisman]

If you don't want to have the discussion, then don't try to use excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny - just say you won't allow them because you don't want them here. There is no arguement to counter that.

You know what... speaking for me, personally, that is exactly what I'm saying. I don't want commercial projects advertised here ... period. And I know I'm not the only member who feels this way.

This doesn't mean that I don't ALSO support commercial hacks that are sold someplace else. I've also purchased several premium add-ons and premium styles because I decided they were worth the added expense ... for my site. We all make that decision for ourselves.

That being said, just what are those "... excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny" you're referring to? I've seen plenty of those posted on both sides of the question.. but mostly from angry people who're doing little more than throwing rocks at each other.

Let's look at some points made throughout this thread... Many of the advanced coders here have given away an enormous amount of free hacks. And no matter how diligent they were and how helpful and generous they've been, they still got badgered by thoughtless idiots who whined over every imaginable bug and truly expected to come here and get personal services for nothing. So many of these coders got fed up/burned out and they packed up their cookies and went home. Or, they set up a commercial site somewhere else so they could at least get some money back for the hard work they put into this (which is fine).

Will allowing commercial hackers to advertise here change or improve any of this? No. Not a chance. It just means those self-absorbed jerks will have paid hard-earned money for what they got, and that gives them a legitimate reason to complain when something isn't well coded and demand the higher level of support services they bought. Those hassles simply don't belong here. It interferes with the real purpose why this extended community is here.

Look what has happened to this site over the last few years just from what little advertsing and self-promotion that has been allowed in this far. I've read those well-intended threads where some guy got ripped off (or merely think he got ripped off) by another member who agreed to install a hack for $$$. Those almost always degrade into an endless pissing contest between people who also got taken vs. loyal customers and faithful friends who jump in to defend the poor sot who just got blasted in public. In the end, it's always the same thing. It's all one person's word against another in a situation where we'll never know who's right and who's wrong. And the same old advice the purchaser didn't heed in the first place... to not pay for services upfront when dealing with someone you don't know.

Is this the natural evolution everyone wants more of here? Not me... not at all. And why should the vb.org staff, or Jelsoft representatives for that matter, be bothered with crap like this ... here at vb.org? That's not their mess to clean up.

They allowed in a small section where buyers and sellers could get connected.. people can offer to pay someone to do work for them and commercial coders can contact members directly to quote their fees. A lot of good may or may not have come from that... personally, I haven't participated there so I can't speak for either side in those transactions. But there's a spillover effect that's easy to see all over the other sections of this site. And it's a horrible change that has affected how people relate to each other in this community.

As an example -- A new licensed member gets in way over his head, technically, and something he thought was easy to do blows up his site. He comes here asking ... sometimes begging ... for someone to PLEASE help him fix his board. Or asks for advice on how to fix it himself. Not everyone in a situation like that gets very good assistance. And it really saddens me to see replies to that person where another member says, oh I can fix it for you if you're willing to pay what I charge for my time. It wasn't all that long ago when someone else would have answered that thread with basic helpful advice for FREE, telling him to use the search feature or pointing him to a well-known thread that will help him solve his own problem and learn how to manage his own changes. But those people don't post those replies anymore. Someone else already did in a different way, so they let it go.

A while later the same person posts another plea for help that goes unanswered ... then the thread drops away and I don't know if that person ever even comes back here anymore.

Look at how many times new people post the first time saying they're willing to pay $20 to anyone who will help them. Or asking how much would it cost to hire someone to... etc.... etc....

We weren't getting all that nonsense here two years ago.

[ludachris]

Though I see what you are saying its like making a requirement for the users of free hacks to buy every third one.

Some work can not be made LITE and supporting and maintaining LITE and PRO versions can drive you salivatingly mad. People should not be forced to give up their time for nothing. If they can, then we should support them, if not we should support them. Either way we should support those that offer us tools we feel make vBulletin better.

Thanks

Well, it's just a thought. The idea is to help keep the free hacks from dying out as coders start becoming more interested in being paid. I think vB.org should allow commercial hacks to be posted here on the site, as it would be useful for all of us. And certainly some hacks should be payed for with the amount of development time involved. However, there needs to be some type of requirement in place that forces the commercial coders to keep creating free hacks if they want to be able to post their commercial hacks. Maybe making a LITE version of the payed hack isn't the answer, but the requirement could be something like - for every new commecial hack you post, you must also post one new free hack. You get the idea. There IS a way to make it work.

This site was built on free hacks. Ever since the payed request area opened, far fewer coders tend to give advice. It seems like they're all hanging out in the paid section now. Just look at how many hacks there were for vB2 compared to vB3. Hell, I'd venture to guess that half the 3.0 hacks will never be ported over to 3.5 because most people don't feel like volunteering while watching others get payed. If vb.org allowed commercial hacks without a way to keep the free hacks from dying, this site would lose its spirit completely. Why create a free hack when you can get payed? There needs to be a balance if commercial hacks are allowed here.

I'm all for supporting both the commercial and free hacks - but when money starts getting thrown around, greed takes over and the sharing/helping spirit fades - capitalism at its finest I suppose. Anyway, I hope there can be a compromise and a solution that will make us all happy AND keep the spirit of this site alive.

Nobody HAS to start with vB. There's many free alternatives, and the only person that can justifiably complain about the cost of vB is someone living in a 3rd world country earning $1 a day. The fact is, when it comes to investing $$$ for interactive internet software, the cost of vB is a pittance compared to all the other expenses involved, especially if one takes into account the time and effort needed to develop a site.

~ Mark
Hey Mark, some of us built and launched our sites for less than half the cost of vBulletin (not considering my time - which didn't cost me a penny). This forum script was by far my largest expense when creating my first community site from scratch. Anyone can justifiably complain about the cost of vB and commercial hacks - it's not cheap, but it's the best out there. Not everyone can afford it or justify paying for it. Not everyone has been able to set their site up in a way to recoup the costs. And it's difficult to sit here and read posts by people making light of others' financial situations. To assume that an owned license ($160 or $80 per year) is a drop in the bucket for everyone here is a bit unfair. Just because they paid for a license doesn't mean they have money to burn. But this isn't the point that should be debated anyway.

It's not about whether or not people are able to pay for a hack - some can, some can't. It's not about a coder's choice to charge for a hack - that's their perogative. It's about whether or not paid hacks should be allowed to be promoted on a site that was originally launched to allow vB license owners to share hacks amongst eachother - for free. Let's debate the correct topic and stop making assumptions/judgements about one another.

I still think we could have a section where commercial hacks are posted (maybe not supported here, but linked to), as long as the coders agree to continue to make new free hacks available as well. If you're going to promote your commercial services here, you should continue to contribute in a way that fits in with the spirit of the site.

[MJM]

Talisman wrote ... "We weren't getting all that nonsense here two years ago."

Well there's gonna be more nonsense now as non-tech vB'ers like me discover the ease of installing plugins, which doesn't = bug-free/trouble-free plugins, which = more support requests from newcomer bonefide newbies.

This shouldn't be a problem if others using the free plugins who have some knowledge chip in with newbie support issues ...

Overall it's vb who should also be benefiting from contributions to vB.org, and if this is reflected in their sales, perhaps they could donate extra funds towards staff support etc.

It is in vB.coms best interest to make vB.org the best it can be ...

I personally think vB has been slow to introduce new user noticeable features in the 4 years I've had their software though will accept this for other efforts to build a rock solid platform.
But if the vB.org had not been here, I most certainly would have been looking for greener pastures.

~ Mark

[MPDev]

You know, instead of another forum a simple hotscripts.com for vB add-ons (free or not) would be benefitial. With a rating/comment system in place you can forgo the whole vB.org duplication and just provide a nice resource index to add-ons for vBulletin.

[MJM]

I recently saw a product (not a forum software) that had included 30 + plugins with it's product ... basically it gives the consumer much better control from the start, of what they want as part of their product.

I am guessing that plugins are an overdue concept and if implemented earlier in vB development vB might be different.

I personally feel that if vb didn't have to spend the time and energy to work on the guts of this app, that numerous mods at vb.org would now be part of vb3.
I am only bringing this up because of my experience with other software providers who didn't have as active mod community instead went ahead and came up with many features that members requested, including support. This is what makes them great products.

What surprises me is that there appears to be very few mods at vB.org that are now a part of vB3+ (Am I wrong? )

Not knowing much about techno business issues I would have thought there would be more financial incentive and a workable relationship between coders, mods and the vB product.

Essentially vB must ensure that new features be continually added to this product at no increase to the price of the product, though it might charge extra for advanced plugins.

I would think it'd be a difficult decision as an independent coder to expend a great deal of time on a complex mod if vb also had one up it's sleeve.

Well, all I can say is the times are a changing.

~ Mark

[Damian]

This seems to be a discussion amongst coders for the benefit of coders so I am going to stay out of it but I did want to post something to the coders from a consumer standpoint.
I don't expect anything for free. I can only imagine the time some of you take to create your hacks and additions, plus reading some of the responses you get in your support threads leaves me shaking my head in disbelief sometimes.

I love it when you guys that offer paid hacks release nice little hacks and even major additions for free here at vb.org. It gives me chance to see and evaluate your product. Some examples of this are:

I installed vBadvanced CMS, when it came time for me to purchase a Gallery, the first place I went was of course vBadvanced. Price had nothing to do with it.
I recently installed Geek Gallery Popup 4.0 and it works flawless. Now that I will be needing a new article system for 3.5.1 I am fairly certain I will be purchasing GARS from The Geek once it is out of beta.

If cinq, another coder who I hold in high regard, was to offer his glossary for free, I would visit his site. If I found that he had an article system for sale as well, it might make my choice even harder to make as for which one to buy.

These free add-ons can bring people to your sites for additional purchases. All the great vb coders that I know about I have heard about them here at vb.org. Either by using one of their releases or just hearing about them around this site.
I have no use for any kind of directory for paid add-ons.
I am sure there are plenty of people that would have an interest in this but I am a firm believer in word of mouth advertising. Everything I need to know I can learn here at vb.org

Thanks again.

[MPDev]

If nothing else, I think this threads proves that if it were an option there are people who would find it useful.

[cinq]

You know, instead of another forum a simple hotscripts.com for vB add-ons (free or not) would be benefitial. With a rating/comment system in place you can forgo the whole vB.org duplication and just provide a nice resource index to add-ons for vBulletin.

That's actually my whole purpose of doing up a Resource Directory on my site (rating and comments coming soon), because frankly, judging from the way this thread is, I seriously doubt there will be an outcome here on .org that would satisfy both sides.

On another note, whatever modifications I release will NOT be paid ones.

[Lycan]

If nothing else, I think this threads proves that if it were an option there are people who would find it useful.

Yes but when you get right down to it that sort of thinking works for those of us that would rather keep this site what ive read it was started for...a Free resource for vB'ers in that it also proves that there are people who would find it problematic to put it nicely

[Lottis]

MPDEV; You point out that there are plenty of free forums with add ons.
The reason i picked vBullitin is because this is fore me the moste secure product.
And with all the good hacks and addons here, this is what i wanted.

I run a non commersial site, with a small group of ladies.
Witch i know there is a lot of in my country. This is a group with not the most money on the side.
We do this fore fun and to satisfie our members, not to put a lot of money in it.
If i cant use vBullitin, i will not keep this forum.
If i want to bye a hack, there is money i have to save fore sometime.

I hope you make a poll on this, because i dont think the majoritet here has a LOT of money to spend on this.

[The Geek]

I don't need to chill, you do. You try to come across as this kind, caring individual that wants to give so much to the org when in reality, you are looking to make money off of it. No matter how you color it, you belittle those that don't write major hacks, either because they don't have the knowledge and skill yet, or because they are new and haven't had enough time to do something of that caliber. There are those hear that DO some major hacks and they are still releasing them for free. Andreas and the Journal Hack comes to mind.

And it seems that there are more against the idea of this thread than are for it. That should tell you something. ;)

Thanks Boofo - I come across as kind and caring because I am while I feel you come across as a grumpy cynical curmudgeon which you are. Now enough of the name calling lets get some facts straight.

I gave (and continue give) to .org because I love to code and even more love to know I have helped someone get a bit more from their site. If you count up my time I have given here in FOC work and time spent supporting that code, it could rival the time that some of the Mods around here spend on the site. That isn't a nod at mods, thats to try and say that I have (and continue to do so) given a lot of time around than a lot of other contributors in the past year (which you seem to forget).

Furthermore, your accusation that all I am trying to do is make money off .org is about as off mark as you can get. I make very good money in my full time job which has always allowed me to give away my free time for free. Now however all I ask is that if you chose to take advantage of that time - you pitch a bit in. I charge piss all for my work and therefore I make next to nothing for it and I plan to keep it that way. In fact, I have given over 50% of what I have grossed so far into sponsoring OTHER vb resource sites because I felt it was giving back to the community. If the .10p an hour is me being greedy then call me Uncle Scrooge.

I have never belittled anyone that has given time to the community - in fact I started this thread because your 'loving, caring, supportive community' was belittling each other without so much of a word from you. What I have tried to do in the continuing discussion is to put things in perspective which you continuously distort. Since your mission seems only to paint me as some mean, greedy leech it suits your purpose quite well however it really makes me question the meaning of the word 'moderator'.

Regardless I am well past caring how you try to muddy the discussion (and facts), from what I have witnessed here, there is a actually a very loud voice for those that would find benefit for a way to become more informed about commercial systems.

I suggested a poll awhile back - why not run it? Lets see how many of those that do give to the community actually vote that they are totally against being informed of commercial solutions (unlikely). Rather lets see how many non givers are totally against the imaginary threat of losing their 'endless well of free work' (which is as paranoid as it is implausible). The reality is that most are at worse apathetic to it, but in all reality they feel it may be of some benefit. Only those with over active imaginations think that everyone will stop making FOC work.

See, there seems to be this fear that if there is an avenue for commercial information that suddenly everyone is going to charge for their work. The theme seems to be 'ignorance will keep them working for nothing'. That isn't very community spirit. I would think we would encourage those that have put in the effort to grow to a point where they can be commercially rewarded for all their hard work - not kept in the dark so you can continue to get free stuff off of them.

People also seem to forget 1 key aspect of providing commercial information here: You don't have to view it. You don't have to buy it. You can pretend its not even there. Therefore it doesn't even affect you so why be so hell bent for leather in order to take the option from those that want it?

Lets face it, this thread was started in response to how .orgs community spirit is (and there is no commercial info section here now!). Maybe with the introduction of a commercial information section of the site - those that download free work will be that much more appreciative to those that give their time for free.

Regardless, its time we all move forward - we all keep bantering back and forth and now its turned into a discussion with mostly the same people arguing their viewpoints and the only constructive proposals seem to be those who are interested in exploring additional avenues.

Just do the poll, lets see the results and lets then put the results in perspective. Then you can stick it to me and say I told you so (which I am sure you will do in a number of ways). Would be interesting if you made it so the participants were those that has released at least 1 modification here - but then I'm sure that wouldn't work would it?

[Boofo]

You're right. I retract everything and apologize.

[MPDev]

I think an informal poll is a good idea - for no other reason than it would stop this petty debate over weather anyone would actually use it.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=100721

[trackpads]

Haven't been about as much lately since the whole "you are evil because you are going commercial" threads kicked off a few months ago.

I popped in today and was browsing about appalled to see the same mentality and anger toward people who decide that their time and investment should be met with something equal from the people who benefit from it.

In other words - a lot of angry .orgers with a mob mentality toward anything remotely commercial (although ironic that vB isn't lumped into this).

What is up? Sure, OK, .orgers rules: hear no commercial, see no commercial, speak no commercial - however I think its ridiculous to get all agro because someone who released something free then decides that its not worth his time continuing the process unless he gets something out of it. The funniest thing is that most agro/bullying in these situations come from people who do not contribute to .org, they are just users.

Please guys, not everyone can be devoted to code the hours of a part time job for you for free. Cut some people some slack otherwise you are going to have less and less talent here and more and more unfinished or half assed projects. It is true on many levels that you generally get what you pay for ;)

On a similar note, it was discussed at some length ways to provide avenues for commercial and free scripts here. I'm not wanting to stir that up again - however this was awhile ago. Any further progress? I guess your priority is to upgrade to 3.5X first.

Really odd to see the 'ultimate (but only if its free) resource for vB' be on an outdated version. Kind of like going to a MS convention watching them demo on Windows 98 boxes (what kind of message does that send customers!) ;)

Anyhooo - cant we all get along. There is a hell of a lot more in the world to get uptight about than 'hey, this guy was secretly planning on holding the world to ransom when his script came out of beta! He OWES US a final!' - many times people dont plan things that way - life somtimes just changes things. :)

(let the flames begin :tired: )

My personal opinion is that if I pay, I am pretty sure I get to complain if it doesnt work and I paid for it. If I use a free hack and I still end up donating in most cases to support the causes. I appreciate all the work here on the site, without it I would have just another purple forum with really neat smilies :) :)

[EasyTarget]

from what I have witnessed here, there is a actually a very loud voice for those that would find benefit for a way to become more informed about commercial systems.There's a difference between a loud voice and a majority voice. Usually the majority feels safe and thus they are quiet because they always expect someone else will participate for them, so their voice is represented by a small fraction of the actual group. But just like everything else in life the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

And unless the poll becomes something that every member has to vote on before they can continue at the site then I don't see it ever providing a good estimation of what all members of the community really feel.

I also think if you want to get more support you're going to have to spell things out a little more specifically so its not just this vague concept of commercial hacks.

What do you want .org to do? How should they moderate commercial hacks? should any hack be allowed to be released commercially here? Is there some way to set pricing standards? Should the sales be done here on this site? Should .org get a piece of the pie? Should coders be allowed to charge for sale of the code and support? What do you do if a hack has vulnerabilities and bugs? What do you do if the coder won't address the vulnerabilities/bugs? If .org handles the money, should they keep it for a specified amount of time to ensure support/fixes? How do you handle unsatisfied customers, customers that didn't get from the hack what they expected? are there refunds? What if one hack is incompatible with another hack? People paying for hacks are going to expect more in return, both in support and in performance/quality, which will increase the amount of time coders must put into the hack, will this be reflected in the pricing? Are coders ready to put that much more time into it (especially when they already have other 'well-paying' jobs)? How will allowing commercial hacks here affect the sales/image of vbulletin overall? Would code which is based on/uses licensed vbulletin code be allowed to be sold? Should there be a separate part of the site for the paid hacks or should they be integrated with the free ones? Should members that want premium hacks pay a monthly or yearly fee and the coders get some of that money based on the installs of their hacks (so long as usage is limited to those paying members)? Should there be a quota to the number of free hacks which a member can download/install before being required to donate something to the 'coders' pot'?

I'm sure there's many other issues to consider, but its really not as simple as should they allow commercial hacks or not. I think the best way to handle this would be to rally the coders together and make your own site. If it seems to be handled well then maybe .org can consider integrating some of the ideas.

[MPDev]

And unless the poll becomes something that every member has to vote on before they can continue at the site then I don't see it ever providing a good estimation of what all members of the community really feel.

Why? We elect Presidents with only half the eligible voters actually casting a vote.

Nothing wrong with getting a sample, for no other reason than to provide some kind of indication to both sides of the debate.

[Talisman]

Why? We elect Presidents with only half the eligible voters actually casting a vote.

Hahaha... yeah, and look how well THAT has turned out for us. :p

[EasyTarget]

Why? We elect Presidents with only half the eligible voters actually casting a vote.And? Do we really want to pattern it after something that gets that kind of turnout/results?

and there is 'Nothing wrong with getting a sample' so long as everyone is aware who is in the sample and what it means. for example putting a poll in this part of the site limits who will see it and the type of users that will vote on it.

[The Geek]

They are all great questions Easy - however I think the first step is to try and determine if a valid proportion of Jelsoft customers would like to have a solution for accessing commercial add ons for vBulletin.

Me? I dont think too much of the poll even though its looking pretty good now. I personally think its too B&W and draws people into 1 camp or the other when my personal perception is that the majority arent overly bothered either way. Its not like they are forced into viewing anything eh?

At least discussion is going forward but Jelsoft still needs to make up their mind regardless of the outcome of the poll.

[trackpads]

Hahaha... yeah, and look how well THAT has turned out for us. :p

Pretty well actually, no more planes running into very large New York buildings, gas is cheaper now than a year ago ($1.86 here) and Saddam is going on trial soon for killing 50X more people than have died from Al Queda attacks in the current war, got to say those are plusses......

Now aside from the left coast chatter, I digress...

I think Geek et al has a great idea. Why is it that Jelsoft should be the only people allowed to make money on this? Jelsoft even realizes this, hasnt anyone noticed the changes in 3.5 to be, dare I say.., hack friendly? What other paid BB is this hack friendly?? IPB, nope..

They (Jelsoft) understand what hacks do for them and this community. I doubt they would mind at all. The US and UK economies are based on free markets and why not exercise it here.

The hacks dont need to be actually hosted here, just a simple thread with a paypal link and discussions. Professional admins do not mind paying a few $$ for things and code that will make us 10X that on our sites.

-Jason

[EasyTarget]

Pretty well actually, no more planes running into very large New York buildings, gas is cheaper now than a year ago ($1.86 here) and Saddam is going on trial soon for killing 50X more people than have died from Al Queda attacks in the current war, got to say those are plusses......So prior to 9/11 the United States was more vulnerable to airplane hijacks/attacks because of the way votes were conducted/percentges voting? And since then there's been a change in the election system which has caused all that you attributed to it?
Why is it that Jelsoft should be the only people allowed to make money on this?Well this is their site, why should anyone but them be allowed to make money here? (yes I agree that the coders here help vb.com earn more money so you could say that the coders are entitled to a piece, and that by allowing paid hacks you could actually increase the amount of sales at vb.com) But can you go to the microsoft website and post modifications you want to sell? Can you make vb.com see that by charging for some hacks here that it wouldn't take $$/customers away from them?They (Jelsoft) understand what hacks do for them and this community. I doubt they would mind at all.Actually the few times I've brought up the power of the coding community and the influence it has on vbulletin sales they try to throw the 90/95% don't use hacks crap at me. I think that a large portion of that 90/95% however has purchased the software because of a site that has modifications.
The hacks dont need to be actually hosted here, just a simple thread with a paypal link and discussions.I for one hate sites that are just click throughs to other sites. I already hate registering for more sites than I have to and this would just increase that. Plus I think linking to other sites would make it easy for coders to take someone elses hack and release it on their own site, whereas if they were hosted here you could avoid that.
Professional admins do not mind paying a few $$ for things and code that will make us 10X that on our sites. And they don't mind paying nothing for it either. But yes, they should be more likely and more willing to pay money since they'd be getting money back and are in the position to pay in the first place.

[The Geek]

I think I just said this on the poll page but it may be worth mentioning here:

I dont think anyone should get hung up on the particulars of HOW information is offered to customers. Thats another debate entirely!

But in response to the MS point - they dont sell 3rd party vendors work - however they do have resources for you to find 3rd party vendors unlike here.

No big deal really.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

I think it is time that a 3.6 Beta was released, and all could spend time on analysing the new code and redisigning more great hacks. :D

[trackpads]

I think I just said this on the poll page but it may be worth mentioning here:

I dont think anyone should get hung up on the particulars of HOW information is offered to customers. Thats another debate entirely!

But in response to the MS point - they dont sell 3rd party vendors work - however they do have resources for you to find 3rd party vendors unlike here.

No big deal really.

Geek,

If you go to the community sites right there on Microsoft.com they offer commercial 3rd party addons that anyone can submit. I deal with a alot of Frontpage webadmins and MS.com has a ton of 3rd party commercial addons right there on the site. It expands the community.

Easy Target,

So prior to 9/11 the United States was more vulnerable to airplane hijacks/attacks because of the way votes were conducted/percentges voting? And since then there's been a change in the election system which has caused all that you attributed to it?


Re-read my post as a reply to the insult to our president above, nothing more nothing less. As a veteran of this (and other) wars it is offensive to me when people throw those types of insults out off handedly or otherwise.

Also, when did our voting system change? :)

-Jason

[The Geek]

I think it is time that a 3.6 Beta was released, and all could spend time on analysing the new code and redisigning more great hacks. :D

That would throw everyone askew :)

[MPDev]

Well this is their site, why should anyone but them be allowed to make money here?

Um, I'll take a stab at this one, because this is a "resource" site, not a marketing site for JelSoft?

[EasyTarget]

Re-read my post as a reply to the insult to our president above, nothing more nothing less.ok, I didn't inteprate his post that way so I thought you were attributing those events to the U.S. election system which as far as I know hasn't had any major change directly prior to or after the events occurred.As a veteran of this (and other) wars...Can't thank you enough.


If you go to the community sites right there on Microsoft.com they offer commercial 3rd party addons that anyone can submit. I deal with a alot of Frontpage webadmins and MS.com has a ton of 3rd party commercial addons right there on the site. It expands the community.a ton of commercial addons? link? and if they do, are you sure its because they want to offer them and not because of some lawsuit that has forced them to or in some response because of lawsuits to help with public opinion?

Um, I'll take a stab at this one, because this is a "resource" site, not a marketing site for JelSoft?
so being labeled as a resource site makes this not a marketing site?

[trackpads]

a ton of commercial addons? link? and if they do, are you sure its because they want to offer them and not because of some lawsuit that has forced them to or in some response because of lawsuits to help with public opinion?

Ok, there might have been a lawsuit, Ms has as many lawyers I think now as they do coders :) Here is the link:

Ms Frontpage site:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX010858021033.aspx

The Frontpage Marketplace:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/results.aspx?Scope=EP%2CEM&Query=FrontPage&Origin=HH100678531033

Some items there are free and some arent. But they are pretty intermingled.

-Jason

[EasyTarget]

Ok, there might have been a lawsuit, Ms has as many lawyers I think now as they do coders :)haha what ms really needs are lawyers that can code.

[trackpads]

haha what ms really needs are lawyers that can code.

You might have something on that, but you would have to find 'smart' lawyers :) :)

[EasyTarget]

ahah yeah, imagine the potential of lawyer/coder jokes.

[trackpads]

ahah yeah, imagine the potential of lawyer/coder jokes.

Forget the jokes, we could have some TV potential! Watch out LA Law here comes "Columbus Coding" at at 11pm, right after ER comes "Baltimore vBasic" :) :)

[BamaStangGuy]

Hahaha... yeah, and look how well THAT has turned out for us. :p

It turned out great.

Now leave politics out of this thread mmkay?

[Lycan]

It turned out great.

Now leave politics out of this thread mmkay?

<cough35%aprovalratingcough> so no it didnt turn out all that great ... further more.. someone else brought the politics up first she only made a joke. Relax people

Back to the topic at hand......


Earlier in the thread another site was being talked about and even in the works if i remember correctly ..... my question is this since most of the coders ive read responding in this thread if this site started allowing even just "link throughs" this site to other sites how can they garentee that this site wouldnt get targeted with all the "the only reason i paid [I]<insert random name>hacker to install an arcade was because i found him here" type posts. and i dont mean just this coder site that was linked earlier if they allow a few to do it then wouldnt eventually there be alot of other "less credible" sites popping up wanting to do the same thing, thus in the long run just causing even more confusion and drama?

[owenweb]

Oh, okay. I just saw a link to the site, looked at showgroups and it seems to be the same 'staff' as here (minus a few). I guess I'll work out what it's all for when I have time to read some more posts.

[Brad]

owenweb,

You are currently showing up as unlicensed. To be able to download hacks and/or receive support here at vBulletin.org, we ask you to please click here (http://members.vbulletin.com/membersupport_priority.php) (vB-germany users click here (http://members.vbulletin-germany.com/membersupport_priority.php)) and enter your email address, to show us that you are licensed.

You will need to use your customer number and password (which will be in the email you got when you paid for your license) to access that page. Please note that your email is case sensitive. The update of your account may take up to one hour.

Thank you.

[trackpads]

<cough35%aprovalratingcough> so no it didnt turn out all that great ... further more.. someone else brought the politics up first she only made a joke. Relax people


Maybe he wont get re-elected... oh wait.. What did polls last year say?... Kerry who?

:) :)

[yayvb]

Maybe yahoo mail and hotmail, etc. should be sued for having .com domains when that's where the 'free' webmail is at, false advertising eh? hehe :rolleyes:

[trackpads]

Maybe yahoo mail and hotmail, etc. should be sued for having .com domains when that's where the 'free' webmail is at, false advertising eh? hehe :rolleyes:

I wonder if the guy at Hotmail was laughing when gmail first came out. Now wonder what he is saying? :) :)

[nexialys]

I wonder if the guy at Hotmail was laughing when gmail first came out. Now wonder what he is saying? :) :)i would wonder more about that gMail guy actually, because that was not funny to trash the work of the Hotmail guy.. lol

[noppid]

TAP TAP TAP... IS THIS THING ON?

I've been around the block here, on the soap box here and under the bus here. This place has and serves a great purpose. Despite how this change could work to my advantage, I'm too well aware of how such a change would upset the dynamic of the site. I'm not even getting into the biz end of things regarding Jelsoft.

This is a great stage. This is a great tool. This is a great place for free exchange.

Don't try to change vb.org. Change how you do business.

Fade to black.

[trackpads]

I disagree, change is what makes Vb dynamic and interesting. Vb will and should change. Opening a marketplace is for everyones benefit.

Is this thing on? Hello? Would the owner of the green Kia please come to the service counter??

[noppid]

I disagree, change is what makes Vb dynamic and interesting. Vb will and should change. Opening a marketplace is for everyones benefit.

Is this thing on? Hello? Would the owner of the green Kia please come to the service counter??

That's not how I was using the word dynamic. I was stating about the way the site works.

You are talking about the flexibility, flux, of the product. I agree that it exists. It's the basis of this thread.

But this is a .org and run in the spirt of free. There are plenty of advertising avenues available already.

[trackpads]

That's not how I was using the word dynamic. I was stating about the way the site works.

You are talking about the flexibility, flux, of the product. I agree that it exists. It's the basis of this thread.

But this is a .org and run in the spirt of free. There are plenty of advertising avenues available already.

No way jose, vb.org is only for people who have purchased the vb product, that in no way imparts free. phpbb.com that is free. This is more of a premium service for people who choose the best forum software and are willing to pay for it.

Was the Kia yours?

[noppid]

No way jose, vb.org is only for people who have purchased the vb product, that in no way imparts free. phpbb.com that is free. This is more of a premium service for people who choose the best forum software and are willing to pay for it.

Was the Kia yours?

My car has alot more letters in the name then that.

As I told someone previously in this thread, I'm not looking for a pissing match.

You are splitting hairs when you cite free as not free cause you have to be a vB owner to utilize this site to it's full extent. I thought you had a debate to mount.

Oh well.

[Lycan]

Maybe he wont get re-elected... oh wait..
:) :)


To quote you "Oh Wait" last term lol :p

[The Geek]

repression != dynamic :)

[MPDev]

Based on the poll, it would seem that a majority of people would like the resource. So, at least we can dispense with the arguement that the majority do not want it.

[Chris M]

As I said in the other thread, 2 days is not a conclusive amount of time - I am sure there are people for and against it that have not been online in the last two days that would wish to cast their vote...

As I suggested, leave it for a week before you start boogying down over a 4 vote count lead ;)

Chris

[The Geek]

I think its worth at least a week too however I think its still worth noting that regardless of the outcome from poll, it does obvious that a large % of people (right now, the majority) do want the discussion to change from 'do we' to 'how should we'.

After all, is it supposed to be a '50% or more have to request it in order for it to be taken into consideration' or is it a matter of 'A large portion want something, lets do it'?

Anyhooo - lets see how it pans out however its looking pretty relevant regardless (the lead has been proportionately maintained since it opened). Lets get on with the 'How is the best way to implement it' discussion!

[Lizard King]

I am wondering about a question for the paid modifications. Is there a way for them to check if the person has a license or not ?

[Brad]

I am wondering about a question for the paid modifications. Is there a way for them to check if the person has a license or not ?

Yes and no. Jelsoft doesn't give anyone access to check a persons licensed status outside of the offical websites. Some of them use a code inserted into a post in code boxes here, but that doesn't stop anyone from leaking it, and you can only change that code so often.

[Lea Verou]

Yes and no. Jelsoft doesn't give anyone access to check a persons licensed status outside of the offical websites. Some of them use a code inserted into a post in code boxes here, but that doesn't stop anyone from leaking it, and you can only change that code so often.

Then how can vbadvanced check if you have a license? (I think it does but I'm not sure)

[Chris M]

They don't...

Chris

[Brad]

Then how can vbadvanced check if you have a license? (I think it does but I'm not sure)

IIRC they use a code (perhaps password would be a better word to use...) within a code box here.

[Hossack]

I'm a newbie to vBulletin and to this forum, so I hope this post isn't speaking out of turn. I've read it from the beginning and apart from the odd bit of posturing, it has been very interesting to see how people view this site, from both the user ,the coders and the moderators point of view.

Humble opinion, but it does seem to be a strange arguement to be having. One side to the arguement is that vBulletin.org has and should remain free, excluding commercial interests from the site in favour of free help being offered to new and existing members. The other side, the freedom to code, or recieve code for either free or with payment if the code warrants it for the amount of time and effort in its development. The arguement seems valid enough to everyone, so much so that it is worth trading insults over, yet it seems very unlikely it will ever be resolved, as its seems to me it is more an issue of trust than anything else.

If you allow someone to charge for their services, the consensus is that everyone will start charging and this will no longer be a .org, more of a .com and the community that exists here would struggle in some way. This seems a little bizarre as you already have a Service Request area, and unless I'm missing something, there are people there offering money for modifications to their vBulletins, yet no-one seems to respond to these requests. In other areas, where people are asking for help and advice for free, there are responses.

I'm trying to learn how to work vBulletin, but at the same time would gladly pay people to help me, I don't see that it conflicts with the nature of this site, more that it enhances its usefulness to the community. If you have the time and inclination to learn, there are more than a few who will encourage and help, if you don't have the time, but have the money, equally someone would be able to help. The majority in this community seem to be fair and reasonable people who will help whether payment is involved or not, and the introduction of any services that are based on pounds and pence rather than out of the goodness of someones heart would not be abused by the majority by no longer supporting the free elements of the community.

As I say, I don't mean to speak out of turn and as a new member here I maybe don't understand the arguement or the history of vBulletin.org, but if I'm reading into this correctly it would seem to me that anything that benefits the majority is at least worth thinking about and for the people who want to be paid for their efforts could show how useful the paid elements of the site could be by using the facilities that already exist until it is decided one way or the other.

Hossack

[Lea Verou]

People don't respond to paid requests cause they don't have permission to do so.
They have to respond via pm. ;)

[Hossack]

People don't respond to paid requests cause they don't have permission to do so.
They have to respond via pm. ;)

That would explain it :surprised: Had I read the sticky thread there, that would have answered me straight away :ermm:

Hossack

[Brad]

Thank you for your post Hossack, don't worry about speaking out of turn just because you're new to the community.

Michelle is right, we do not allow people to post replies in the service requests forum (save the author of the thread).

[Talisman]

Based on the poll, it would seem that a majority of people would like the resource. So, at least we can dispense with the arguement that the majority do not want it.
Oh please... you need to go back and read the points raised if you think such a slight lead justifies a change like this. This is exactly what I said on the first page about overlooking the concern members have about this and reading too much into straight-number polling. Our commercial hackers are this quick to declare victory? Give me a break.

Regardless of how an apparent "majority" might vote, it's plain to see this is an extremely contentious issue... with very strong feelings on both sides and significant opposition to this suggestion that shouldn't be drowned out. There's no overwhelming majority that we mostly agree to allow commercial advertising at the vb.org site. If you listen to what members have been saying, you find the opposite is true. There's alot at risk here and alot of concern.

Most people do support commercial hacks and most of us are going to pay for them. But if .org starts letting everyone start advertising and promoting their own self-interests here -- and I do mean EVERYONE (not only reputable and competent hackers) -- then that will interfere with the open exchange of free support among ourselves that the rest of us want to have.

Why can't people who want to turn this into a business on the side for themselves do that on their own.. or go in together and attract their own customers without inserting that commercial element here? In addition to all those commercial hacks we might wish to purchase, we also need and we *should have* one single centralized community as a free resource, too, that doesn't get caught up in all the hype, all the personal agendas, all the problems resulting from shoddy work/disreputable people, and the conflict of interest this raises for THIS community.

[MPDev]

And, apparently, those who oppose the inclusive display of paid mods are equally quick to disregard the poll entirely.

[Brad]

Why can't people who want to turn this into a business on the side for themselves do that on their own.. or go in together and attract their own customers without inserting that commercial element here?

I think the general feeling here is setting up their own site for this is still not going to solve the issue of having their products in a place most of the vBulletin users will see. They gear their products toward vBulletin users so it's only natural that they would want to be able to run ads for them here.

I do agree that the poll is not a good way to look at how the overall community feels about this, although it's showing a mainly 50/50 split at this time only a handful of the users have even voted in the thread.

Personally I don't think free support would dry up here if we went ahead and supported commercial hacks in some form. It takes a lot more then coding a few php scripts to sell your work.

You have to set-up your own website (hosting, vBulletin, domain name, the works), you have to provide your clients with support, you have to fix bugs within your scripts, you have to get the word out about your 'business'. All of this costs money and time, and if you happen to take off soon you'll be paying people to help with support/code.

Now out of the people posting hacks and giving support here, I'd be willing to bet less then 10% of them would have the time or desire to do all of this. Most of these guys and girls work a regular job, or go to school (or both) and do this has a hobby in their free time.

If any of you have been around for sometime at sitepoint you'll know their history with this very same issue. At one point the site was basically 'ad-free' but now it is not. Has the free support there dried up yet? No, in fact it has grown and is still doing so.

[The Geek]

First off Hossak, great post and I yes - everyone here has a voice.

Talisman, don't get so angry. .Org isn't just for you and your beliefs toward scripts, its about everyones beliefs here. We have been told only a minority want information on commercial scripts in this thread by staff. The poll (so far anyway!) has proven that is not the case.

In no way does that warrant a change on its own, however it does suggest that many users would feel they would benefit from it. At that stage, it only seems logical to start discussion on the best way to do this while still maintaining the 'harmony' of .org.

The poll is still new, its not a specific poll, its an informal poll, sure there are a lot of things not perfect about the poll - however at least it does put an end to the 'only commercial script authors want .org to have them here' play.

[Lizard King]

Any user that has money right now can buy a paid script right now. So license is not needed for paid vBulletin modifications. Thats another reason why Jellsoft must find a solution for paid modifications. I dont want to see a paid modification in a unlicensed site and please dont come to me an arguement with why someone will pay for a modification if they dont pay for vb. One is 160$ not everyone can support and the other one is 20-30 $ .

[Brad]

Lets lay off the personal insults please. I'm not naming any names here but they are starting to become all to common in this thread.

[noppid]

Since when did Jelsoft turn it's business into a political democracy where the customers run it?

I see people citing this poll as if it's actually scientific or endorsed.

I've been good about this, but trust me, I have volumes to say.

If this new forum that is up was started by me or the geek, this thread would be dead.

I submit, and I don't care how unpopular this sounds, that this thread lives because two people that work here can profit from it.

Us "customers" would never be allowed 50 pages of setup advertising.

That's how .org is run and it is not going to change.

I'm going back to work. Cheers.

[Brad]

That's how .org is run and it is not going to change.

Change takes time, this is not something that will happen over night. For example we have been discussing this amoung the staff (that includes vBulletin.com staff) going back to at least July, if not longer. Why havn't you seen any action? Because it's still an on-going discussion.

If this new forum that is up was started by me or the geek, this thread would be dead.

There is nothing stoping you or anyone else from setting up your own forum for this purpose.

I submit, and I don't care how unpopular this sounds, that this thread lives because two people that work here can profit from it.

True if we were to charge commercial authors a fee to run ads here the staff members could profit from it. But I'd rather see such money used to buy things we would give away to the membership here (coding books, software, stuff like that). Honestly if I was looking to make money from Jelsoft I'd be spending more of my time answering support questions at vBulletin.com and less of it doing the day to day work needed to run this website.

[Regs]

Since when did Jelsoft turn it's business into a political democracy where the customers run it?

I see people citing this poll as if it's actually scientific or endorsed.

I've been good about this, but trust me, I have volumes to say.

If this new forum that is up was started by me or the geek, this thread would be dead.

I submit, and I don't care how unpopular this sounds, that this thread lives because two people that work here can profit from it.

Us "customers" would never be allowed 50 pages of setup advertising.

That's how .org is run and it is not going to change.

I'm going back to work. Cheers.Bingo.

10-foot pole and track-record are 2 terms that come to mind :D

[noppid]

Just for the record, my post has no negetive or positive conotation. It's just a statement of fact.

I think I'm on record as saying the setting works fine for me.

This is not the problem.

There is nothing stoping you or anyone else from setting up your own forum for this purpose.

I don't need one, nor did I ask for one. Oh wait, I made one 4 years ago!

You dodged the point in your reply turing it back on me. The point was, you and the staff can promote an upcoming commercial venture, but we can't. I am certian if "I" opened that new forum, this thread would be closed and my links removed. Oh wait again, that already happened.

[Brad]

Just for the record, my post has no negetive or positive conotation. It's just a statement of fact.

I think I'm on record as saying the setting works fine for me.

This is not the problem.



I don't need one, nor did I ask for one. Oh wait, I made one 4 years ago!

You dodged the point in your reply turing it back on me. The point was, you and the staff can promote an upcoming commercial venture, but we can't. I am certian if "I" opened that new forum, this thread would be closed and my links removed. Oh wait again, that already happened.

If I came off negitive towards you I apologize, I did not mean it in that way.

[noppid]

If I came off negitive towards you I apologize, I did not mean it in that way.


No problem. I'm not for this change. I know personally what kind of politics this will bring to the forum. It's not a good atmosphere IMO.

Alot of motives can be concieved from those that support this and alot of interesting facts have gotten away from being facts the more this thread goes on.

[Brad]

You dodged the point in your reply turing it back on me. The point was, you and the staff can promote an upcoming commercial venture, but we can't.

I have dodged nothing, it was simply a statement of fact. I'm am trying to be as open about this as possible and keep this discussion on track.

Why would we simply close the thread if you created a forum for this purpose? We didn't do so with the other one floating around (which has nothing to do with the fact the users that created it are staff members here). These people put up the vB license, domain, and hosted it for you guys out of the goodness of their hearts. It was not a break away, it wasn't something I agreed with but there is little I can do about it nor do I wish to do anything about it.

No one is forcing you to go there, you can create your own, link it here as long as it doesn't break any of the rules. You said you've already done so and we removed it? Care to link me to that post? I will look into it and if I feel you were wronged I will correct it, this is why I am here.

My PM box is always opened if you don't agree with an action of a moderator, I can't read minds nor can I read every single post within the forums. I depend on you guys to bring things to my attention.

[noppid]

I have dodged nothing, it was simply a statement of fact. I'm am trying to be as open about this as possible and keep this discussion on track.

Why would we simply close the thread if you created a forum for this purpose? We didn't do so with the other one floating around (which has nothing to do with the fact the users that created it are staff members here). These people put up the vB license, domain, and hosted it for you guys out of the goodness of their hearts. It was not a break away, it wasn't something I agreed with but there is little I can do about it nor do I wish to do anything about it.

No one is forcing you to go there, you can create your own, link it here as long as it doesn't break any of the rules. You said you've already done so and we removed it? Care to link me to that post? I will look into it and if I feel you were wronged I will correct it, this is why I am here.

My PM box is always opened if you don't agree with an action of a moderator, I can't read minds nor can I read every single post within the forums. I depend on you guys to bring things to my attention.


We cross posted, but these are the kinda facts that are getting distorted. I'll address my inuendo first.

I posted a link in this thread twice. No big deal if ya ask me, but one was enough apparently.

I submit that if the forum I posted had no competition, no one would have been counting links in a 50 page thread. Not unless they had something to gain. I find that real interesting.

I'm not mad about the link nor do I care to protest it. I'm meerly pointing out how it looked to me now that the conversation has gone further and a forum for the purpose being discussed was started by staff members.

I truely could care less what happens. I'm just reading and observing.

[Brad]

I found the post in question, the link was removed because it was posted once before. It was not done by a staff member involded with the site in question.

Would I have removed it? No, but I don't think the fact that it was removed caused much harm (aside from your feelings on the issue which I can understand).

I think you've gotton over it, if it even bothered you that much at all. I just wanted to have a look and I though it best to explain. :)

[noppid]

I found the post in question, the link was removed because it was posted once before. It was not done by a staff member involded with the site in question.

Would I have removed it? No, but I don't think the fact that it was removed caused much harm (aside from your feelings on the issue which I can understand).

I think you've gotton over it, if it even bothered you that much at all. I just wanted to have a look and I though it best to explain. :)

Thanks. It's no bother. It's the perception of it. Appreciate the explaination.

I really have to do some work now.

Regards.

[Talisman]

A few days ago, "The Geek" posted a message here that was directed at me, specifically by name. I've been away from the site since I read his post that morning, but I can reply to this now ... so I will.

To The Geek:

>> 1. Talisman, don't get so angry. .Org isn't just for you and your beliefs toward scripts, its about everyones beliefs here.

That's a very strange thing for you to say, The Geek. As an active participant at this forum, I have the exact same perogative as you do to express my opinion on the subject... which I have done in this thread and in the related poll question that was posted. You may not agree with me and you may not like what I say, but that's your problem; not mine. I suggest you find a way to accept that.

Have I ever made any statement -- anywhere -- that I'm the only person who should speak up about this or that I'm the only person who should be heard? No, not at all. The claim you make here that I would or that I ever have is just ridiculous. I have something to say on this subject, so I say it ... the same as you do. It's as simple as that.

>> 2. We have been told only a minority want information on commercial scripts in this thread by staff. The poll (so far anyway!) has proven that is not the case.

I don't believe that's true, The Geek. And I don't recall seeing a message from ANY staff person where they've said this and I've looked for the reference. If I've missed something, would you or someone else point me (us) to the staff member's post? (Thank you.)

Has anyone else said that we or they don't want any information at all on commercial hacks? Of course not. I'm quite sure we all want this information available -- just maybe handled differently than you wish, is all. I believe most of us also want the option to pay someone for a premium hack... if it's something we really want and we can afford the purchase price. At the same time though, it is a valid argument to make that adding commercial advertisement to a not-for-profit .org site will drastically change the purpose and function of this site.

Many people here oppose that change because it's really hard, already, for us to find many people who are willing to help beginners learn and to help us develop our sites without charging a price up-front for doing this. This isn't just my view... many of us who lack great expertise and who've been coming here for a long time have seen a big difference. It wasn't as bad as it is now just a few years ago. More people were willing to help us without stopping first to quote their fee schedule and discuss acceptable payment methods.

Now, I acknowledge that you don't agree with all the opposing views in this discussion and there's nothing wrong with that... but please don't characterize differing positions inaccurately. That only serves to cloud this issue and that's not fair to any of us.

>> 3. In no way does that warrant a change on its own, however it does suggest that many users would feel they would benefit from it. At that stage, it only seems logical to start discussion on the best way to do this while still maintaining the 'harmony' of .org.

I don't see a problem with this. The suggestion has been brought up for open discussion and many people feel very strongly about it on both sides of the argument. It seems clear to me that going forward with this change of purpose/direction at this .org site would NOT maintain harmony within our membership at all. For that matter, this is the most contentious debate I've ever seen at this site.

There are several other alternatives available to advertise commerical hacks, so I believe those options should be further explored and developed instead. I honestly don't see that the same option exists, however, for vB owners who want to share knowledge -- as we do here -- without the added influences we get from commercial soliciting.

A "not-for-profit" .org site does NOT benefit the extended vB community it serves by allowing its members to advertise openly and to solicit their fellow members at this site.

>> 4. The poll is still new, its not a specific poll, its an informal poll, sure there are a lot of things not perfect about the poll - however at least it does put an end to the 'only commercial script authors want .org to have them here' play.

It seems to me that you deliberately try to confuse this issue.. and that's not cool. If you're trying to quote me here, then you've definitely made a mistake because that's not what I said. I would think you should know better.

>> 5. Ill skip addressing the rest of your pointed points as they are of the usual tone. Maybe if you had produced any work and supported it for others to use here over the past 3 years, you wouldn't be so quick to pass judgment.

I hope everyone here will take a very close look at this. Because this attitude is EXACTLY the problem I have been talking about. Experienced coders at this .org site should be willing to encourage/support other members here who have less experience than they do.. even when there's some disagreement. Certainly, not try to slap them down like this one just did with me. I don't know this "The Geek" person at all, other than as a username I've seen here for someone who's developed commercial/non-commercial hacks for vB. But I know, for damn sure, that he doesn't know me or my personal circumstances, either.

The Geek.... that was a nasty thing for you to say. Where do you come off talking to me (or anyone else here) like that? You think it's okay to put me down .... just because I disagree with you... or because I voice my opinion... or because I don't have the same level of technical expertise that you have? Shame on you for this. Your attitude in that post is really pathetic. :ermm:

[plubius]

A few days ago, "The Geek" posted a message here that was directed at me, specifically by name. I've been away from the site since I read his post that morning, but I can reply to this now ... so I will.

To The Geek:

..........


All of the above was well written. I have seen some of these so called expertise and he wants money for a hack that is not even finished.

Part of what you are saying ties in to why some oppose allowing a paid section here at org in that it will create a split class. On the one side we will have coders who will get paid and on the other we will have the FOC coders. How long will it be before the former looks down the nose at the latter? How long will it be before pressure is applied to convert the FOC coder to a paid one? Another reason for opposition is the question of the free scripts starting to suffer from lack of substance and functioncality and the only real ones will cost you a mint?

Here at the org we are all a community of board owners for the most part. We also have a special faction of coders that have for the most part over the years provided the rest of the community with free hacks and all has been content. It has been said that money ruins everything and I think we have no clearer proof of this than with this debate.

Here's is some math for the elitist coders out there who would talk down to us board owners. First we out number you. You treat one of us with disrespect, we remove your hack and pretend it never existed. We tell all of our friends that have boards about how bad you suck and maybe they will do the same. If you keep offending other board owners then eventually your hack will be only a bunch of codes that no one wants.

[MJM]

Coders are like creative artists, of which one must accept that some eccentricity is not abnormal ... there fore if a coder produces A1 work, I wouldn't give a rats arse about personality idiosyncrasies.

I would think that coders would continue to provide FOC's if ...
- more who have installed the mod would chip in and answer support questions to those less technically endowed.
- if more beneficiaries of the free mod would voluntarily donate a few bucks to their cause.
This would show that we're not just a bunch of free loaders.

~ Mark
I will never code, but as an artist in other mediums, I greatly appreciate the combined creativeness and spirit of good will that coders have given to vB.
Offering some form of recompense for services rendered is certainly not out of order.

[sabret00the]

meh i think paid hacks should be allowed on vb.org. people say that gratitude isn't down to £££ and to a certain extent you're right, however £££ goes a long way in providing this. people say that the coding is the easy part and to a certain extent they're right, i must say that i have atleast one hack where i'd be willing to release it for free but the support would take too much outta me, not to mention that for all the support i've given privately with the hack i don't recall anyone asking for my paypal details. coding and support is time consuming and while it's great to have it for free more gratitude should be shown, i.e. if it has an efficacious effect on your site you should take the inititive to contact the author asking for their paypal address and show them a little gratitude like that. i remember not long ago their was a coder here that was releasing mods regularly, his license ran out and that was the end to him, when he got back he released some more work and people installed it but weren't quite willing to think how he managed to get back. people need to realise that for the coders especially it costs to be here, theirs alot more giving than taking and absolutely no reason why people show their gratitude with £££.

but alas paid mods are not about to be allowed here. so my next suggest would be a directory, in which you're allowed to put 5 mods in a box via the cp that are for sale and if a user should want them they can contact the authors, it's alot like a signature directory. even as an end user i must say that knowing what's out there and available to enhance my community would really assist me, i'm trying to take over the world, a few mods along the way really wouldn't hinder me, even if they cost me.

PS. at this moment i think only extensions should cost, maybe, not quite sure yet, but i'm leaning over to that a way.

[plubius]

sabret00the also has a strong point. Gratitude should be shown. Those with a few extra bucks to spare should help out those coders.

[The Geek]

Sheesh. All right, ill bite!

I would suggest you go back to the post you dissected and re-read it without anger. I honestly can not see anything there that can be construed as angry. If anything, I thought (and still do after re-reading it a few times) that I was being diplomatic.

For most here, commercial information is a contentious issue at .org. What I have a difficult time accepting is the Black and White mentality when given out by people who do not code and contribute to the site. Not because coders are better and therefore have more valid input, but rather because they are the ones putting in the time to write and support code FOC for others to use. Yes, in retrospect I can see how that may seem elitist, however that isn't the intention. The intention is to say that:

There is a huge base of Jelsoft customers (coders and non coders) that feel it would be a benefit to have a repository (directory, threads, whatever) of information on how to gain access to scripts that are not only FOC contributions. Likewise, there seems to be a base that want to keep it off of .org at all costs. Why? Why does it even affect you if you don't even write the code in the first place!?!? What seems to come from that attitude is that giving a voice for commercial scripts would take away the well of free work that others benefit from around here.

I can fully respect that many do not know how to code (or even want to). However I find it ironically hypocritical that those that do not give their time producing free work and supporting it should be so negative about discussing the creation of an information centre for those that want to make more informed decisions about what they get (Free or Paid) to enhance their site.

As for the comment about me selling code that isn't even finished I think its fair to point out that I actually don't 'want' money for stuff I haven't completed. What I have done is say 'this isn't finished, buy with caution if your desperate ;) '. Whats great about that is that people can make an informed choice. Personally, I would prefer that people don't buy something I make until its done however this way they have a choice in the matter. I like to think that it is a reflection of the quality of my work, support and trust that people have in my ability to provide them with quality enhancements (even if they aren't even done!).

I charge for some of my work and I give much of it away here FOC. If its something I put a shed load of time into and don't want to give it away for free, then who cares? No one is worse off for it. After all, I wouldn't of released it free anyway and those wanting it free don't have to buy it!

Here's is some math for the elitist coders out there who would talk down to us board owners. First we out number you. You treat one of us with disrespect, we remove your hack and pretend it never existed. We tell all of our friends that have boards about how bad you suck and maybe they will do the same. If you keep offending other board owners then eventually your hack will be only a bunch of codes that no one wants.

I am really shocked over this statement. In fact, this type of attitude is one of the reasons I started this thread.

Look, I apologize if I came off hard against you Talisman - hand on heart I didn't mean to. In fact, I had actually made a comment about me being pissed off about non contributors attitudes on this subject. I edited the post and removed that comment within minutes of posting it because it was wrong of me. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion on the subject regardless of how much they contribute.

To be honest, I'm pretty spent on the whole issue. I have only seemed to turn into the poster child for commercial add ons because I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut when I find an issue that I feel is unfair. The issue is whether .org should provide a resource for customers to become informed about commercial add ons. To me, I find it unfair when those that do not give their free time creating and supporting work FOC want to suppress information about those that do. Please don't take it as I am pointing fingers at anyone in particular - I'm generalizing.

Once again, apologies if you were offended.

[Revan]

As people said, the "freeloaders" should donate some back. As a coder with a fairly large mod released (for free), I can say that having a few dollorz land in my paypal every now and then would really help me make a better desicion in the times where I go "Work on the ever-lasting RPG or play some Lineage II...?".

The thing most people here seem to be missing is this:
THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DIRECTORY OF OFF-SITES WITH PAID MODS, AND to HAVE VBULLETIN.ORG HOST THESE MODS.
I do apologise for the enormous font, but having someone draft up a HUGE post complaining about how the average coder will see this addition as a way to get $5 a piece for his hack, which IS NOT TRUE, annoys me more than reading that font.
The user must HOST and SUPPORT his hack HIMSELF (or herself <3).

Ok to use myself as an example (yet again, I do love the sound of my own ...typing..?):
I don't know what different "Links and Directories" hacks exist out there. There may be paid ones, there may be free ones. I can search the org and maybe find one (I think I saw one here the other month), but it might be lacking some of the advanced functions I am looking for.
"Google Is Your Friend", sure, but thing is, I suck balls at google searching. It's true. I probably wouldn't be able to find my own penis if it required google searching.
I don't want vB,org to be a feedback system
I don't want vB,org to show users rating of the paid hack
I want a simple, searchable database of sites and what paid hacks they offer

Do you honestly think that Joe/Jane Coder will hassle with paying for hosting, making a nice design on the site, secure a members area, setup a support board and market the hack if he couldn't get more than $5 for it? Please. That, quite simply, is retarded.
However, if Joe Coder has made a hack that by all professional standards is worth $20 or more, can afford to invest in hosting/board licence and thinks he can handle the pressure of support for his hack, then I beg of you, give me 1, just ONE good reason why he should go through the same pressure of support (or in most cases, a bigger pressure) just so people can demand professional-level support and an excellent hack for free.
What in most cases will happen is that Joe Coder will say "sod this" because he either has to release it for free with limited support (which is bad for the users), or hassle with marketing his hack himself. He can't advertise it HERE, so he has to try to get word of mouth going. Both of which may be too big of a hassle for Joe Coder, and he will just not bother with it.
But if he could list his site in a directory at the Ultimate vBulletin Resource, then the word of mouth would spread with little effort on his end, and the community would be able to benefit from his mod.

Yeah, thats right. Instead of thinking "ohs teh noes, we have to pay $20 for a quality hack! /cryface", think that without those $20 you probably wouldn't have that particular hack at all. Sure, someone else might have had the same idea and made some half-assed free mod with support that died within the month, but Joe Coder will take his excellent hack to his grave.
Is the greater evil really the $20?

[sabret00the]

decent post but the huge font sucks.

[Zachariah]

decent post but the huge font sucks.

I read the big font in the same time as rest of the post :rolleyes:

[Chris M]

As people said, the "freeloaders" should donate some back. As a coder with a fairly large mod released (for free), I can say that having a few dollorz land in my paypal every now and then would really help me make a better desicion in the times where I go "Work on the ever-lasting RPG or play some Lineage II...?".

The thing most people here seem to be missing is this:
THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DIRECTORY OF OFF-SITES WITH PAID MODS, AND to HAVE VBULLETIN.ORG HOST THESE MODS.
I do apologise for the enormous font, but having someone draft up a HUGE post complaining about how the average coder will see this addition as a way to get $5 a piece for his hack, which IS NOT TRUE, annoys me more than reading that font.
The user must HOST and SUPPORT his hack HIMSELF (or herself <3).

Ok to use myself as an example (yet again, I do love the sound of my own ...typing..?):
I don't know what different "Links and Directories" hacks exist out there. There may be paid ones, there may be free ones. I can search the org and maybe find one (I think I saw one here the other month), but it might be lacking some of the advanced functions I am looking for.
"Google Is Your Friend", sure, but thing is, I suck balls at google searching. It's true. I probably wouldn't be able to find my own penis if it required google searching.
I don't want vB,org to be a feedback system
I don't want vB,org to show users rating of the paid hack
I want a simple, searchable database of sites and what paid hacks they offer

Do you honestly think that Joe/Jane Coder will hassle with paying for hosting, making a nice design on the site, secure a members area, setup a support board and market the hack if he couldn't get more than $5 for it? Please. That, quite simply, is retarded.
However, if Joe Coder has made a hack that by all professional standards is worth $20 or more, can afford to invest in hosting/board licence and thinks he can handle the pressure of support for his hack, then I beg of you, give me 1, just ONE good reason why he should go through the same pressure of support (or in most cases, a bigger pressure) just so people can demand professional-level support and an excellent hack for free.
What in most cases will happen is that Joe Coder will say "sod this" because he either has to release it for free with limited support (which is bad for the users), or hassle with marketing his hack himself. He can't advertise it HERE, so he has to try to get word of mouth going. Both of which may be too big of a hassle for Joe Coder, and he will just not bother with it.
But if he could list his site in a directory at the Ultimate vBulletin Resource, then the word of mouth would spread with little effort on his end, and the community would be able to benefit from his mod.

Yeah, thats right. Instead of thinking "ohs teh noes, we have to pay $20 for a quality hack! /cryface", think that without those $20 you probably wouldn't have that particular hack at all. Sure, someone else might have had the same idea and made some half-assed free mod with support that died within the month, but Joe Coder will take his excellent hack to his grave.
Is the greater evil really the $20?

Not all free coders code "half-assed" mods...

That attitude in itself is a good reason that this shouldn't happen...

Chris

[Revan]

I don't believe I stated that ALL free coders code half-assed mods. I believe I used the term "may" quite often throughout the post.
And my attitude is just that not everything that is good comes for free, people should fess up to that fact.

[Chris M]

I don't believe I stated that ALL free coders code half-assed mods. I believe I used the term "may" quite often throughout the post.
And my attitude is just that not everything that is good comes for free, people should fess up to that fact.

You didn't state all or some - You simply stated that someone else may have the same idea and then code a half-assed mod - That could imply one or the other...

Everything anyone says is open to some interpretation and the fact that your attitude suggested that only paid coders code good modifications could offend free coders and not help your case...

Chris

[Wayne Luke]

I think all points have been covered and recovered. It seems that nothing new is being added, just covering the same thing over and over again.