wluke, please explain the information design of this Hacks forum

[theflow]

I have been wondering this for weeks:

I see at top 3 subforums:

Requests
Releases: Version 2.x
Releases: Version 1.1.x

Below that is a forum whose purpose is confusing:

In sticky thread #1, you state:
Important: vBulletin Hacking Rules
2. Place all Hack Requests in the "Requests" forum. This will make it easy for hack writers to see what you want.

Then there are 6 pages worth of threads in this same forum, many of which contain Requests for hacks, many of which contain released hacks. For weeks I was playing by your own Rules and posting my Requests in the Requests forum, not in this forum. Little to no attention. Then two days ago, after I posted to "How Do I...?" forum asking for help in accomplishing some functionality, that thread got moved (appropriately so) to this forum, not to the "Requests" subforum. I'm not complaining because within 12 hours, one of my other requests that had been sitting unattended to in "Requests" forum for several weeks got picked up by Firefly who then executed the hack and published his results in "Released Hacks". That was great!

So my question is, why bother having a Requests subforum if more attention is gotten from posting hack requests here?

I'm asking so I know where I should place future requests to work within the system

Thanks,
Richard

[JamesUS]

Wayne is away for a couple of days so I will do my best to answer this one, though I haven't been mod of this forum for very long.

The intent was always to keep this main forum free for discussion relating to hacks, perhaps tossing around ideas for the way a particular hack should (or should not) work, or just getting opinions as to whether a hack is wanted by the visitors.
While we would obviously like everyone to check the Requests forum as well as the main one, it inevitably doesn't quite get as much attention simply because it requires another click to get to.
We always encourage people to post their requests in the right forum, and usually move them across if they are in the wrong place (I guess yours got moved (by Ed) to the main hacks forum because it isn't necessarily a public hack as the others are, but a more private work). Perhaps posting should be disabled in this main forum and instead make anotehr subforum, which should help to ensure all get the attention they deserve but I'm not sure that's the best solution.

I think the dedicated 'hack writers' still visit the Requests forum, which is evident because requests do get dealt with eventually. It's still not as much as we'd like but I think that situation is gradually changing.

Hope that clarified things a little - if not please feel free to post more questions.

James.

[theflow]

James, this was very helpful, thank you. I understand the dilemma and I'd like to offer my 2 cents since I am an information designer by trade.

(1) That extra click has a lot to do with it. The way I view it, it's like those beautiful architectural renderings of the new University campus building with landscaping... with grass lawn "here" and sidewalks specified "there" and "there". The building is finished, students start using it, and soon the sidewalks are often discarded in favor of cutting a more direct path through the beautifully manicured grass. Initially, the University puts up signs "do not walk on grass", but eventually they usually give in to: okay, may as well put a sidewalk there since that's where people like to go naturally.

(2) While I think it's helpful to have a clean division of Requests and Releases, and though some people follow the stated protocol, it looks to me like a much larger number of users opt to use this forum for requests. I think that says something worth noting.

(3) If I might make a suggestion, I would let this forum officially become the place for all Active Requests & discussion about hacks, and maybe just convert the subforum which is currently called "Requests" into the "Requests Archive" -- where request threads get moved once a stable hack has been released addressing that request. (see #5)

(4) I would suggest that any and all Hack releases, in whatever stage of release (mini or whatever), NOT be placed in this forum. It's too muddy. If desired, you could add one more subforum to the top called "Hacks in Progress" where people who are expermenting with a hack and getting feedback on it can keep a clean dialogue going that doesn't pollute the stable Hack relaeses. Then when the Hack in Progress is releasable, a Mod moves it to "Released Hacks".

(5) I would suggest that a great protocol to add to anyone releasing a Hack in response to a Request, regardless of the stage of that hack, is this:

Paste in the URL to the initial Request at the top of your thread. This is helpful in linking the request to the solution. Further, let's just say you follow my suggestion and create a "Hacks in Progress" subforum: when the hack is deemed releasable as guaged by posters saying "yeah that works, thanks, etc", then a Mod can not only move the Hack into the "Released Hacks" subforum, but Mod can also click on the Request thread and then move it to the "Requests Archive" forum, thus signifying it's a closed action item.

Summarizing:

Subforums at top:

Hacks in Progress
Releases: Version 2.x
Releases: Version 1.1.x
Completed Requests: Archive

Let the main forum underneath be for all

Hack Requests


2cents

[JamesUS]

I agree that the current method is not working quite as well as we had originally hoped/planned, and your method (implemented either in part or in whole) seems like it would probably be a help. However it is not a decision that I can make...it needs to be agreed to by every moderator and admin.

I'll let Wayne come back and add his views to this thread and if he agrees as well then I guess we can see about getting something sorted out.

[theflow]

thank you James.

[theflow]

Still perplexed by the inconsistent information design scheme of the whole hacking forums. Did you have no interest in my suggestions, or is this a case of "whater... it is what it is... love it or leave it..."?

I think these forums could provide easily 200% better communication if at least some attempt were made to better organize requests from solutions.

Does anyone else here agree -- or is this a lost cause?

[Wayne Luke]

I didn't create the layout, I just help moderate. When the idea to go to multiple forums was given, I suggested a forum for the releases of each series and then this main forum.

A request Archive would be okay I guess. Not sure about a "Hacks In Progress" forum. That will just add a new layer of complexity.

We will review it when John and James get back from vacation.

[theflow]

wluke, thanks. I'm not so sure "hacks in Progress" adds complexity. The real issue is that this forum right here completely ignores the goal to keep requests in one place and releases in another. But if you analyze this forum, you can see that some of the time, or a lot of the time, people are trying stuff out, getting feedback, making changes, etc... so there are many hack attempts that are not really ready for release.

I still contend that you should remove the separate subforum for "requests", let all requests and discussions live here in this forum, and then when people solve the requests, they post in one of two places:

(1) Hacks in Progress -- if they are still troubleshooting the hack before it's been "certified" by multiple users here that indeed the hack works.

(2) Released Hacks 2x -- when other users have certified that the hack works.

It may seem complicated when you read this, but I would suggest that it's actually a lot more straight forward and clean:

Request Bin (here)
Hacks in progress (till it's certified by others as okay)
Released Hacks (after certified that it works)

My suggestion is that moderators would move an item from "Hacks in progress" to "released" simply based upon reading responses and seeing when people say "thanks, it works", etc.

Does anyone else see where I'm coming from?

[aldamon]

Absolutely!

The "grass / sidewalk on campus" analogy was beautful. The people have clearly decided where they are going to post requests: in the top level.

Just allow requests in the main area and get rid of the Requests subsection.

You're done mods! Easy! And then we, the pathetic hack requesters, will actually get some views for our requests...

The other subsections look they are working fine to me. To date, I haven't had any trouble with the releases sections at all.

[samtha25]

It's always difficult to maintain these subtle distinctions unless the forums are moderated mercilessly (e.g. the UBB support forums). In general, if you let the users actions decide, all forums will tend to blend into one big undifferentiated discussion. This is particularly true on busy forums.

What you have at work here is posters who are not clear on the purpose of the main forum and either moderators who are also not clear on the purpose or are not bothered by the overlap between the main and requests forums. I would say that if the requests forum remains then the mods should be more diligent in moving threads. Users will pick up soon enough on the appropriate forum.

But, I agree with theflow that it would be just as well to let requests be posted in the main forum. The distinction between what is a "formal" request for a hack and discussion is too blurry. I think a Hacks In Progress forum would have the same problem. A request is made or a discussion leads to work on a hack. At what point, does it become a "hack in progress". Some hacks are done so quickly that the entire conversation would be over before a moderator would have a chance to move the thread. However, call the "Hacks In Progress" forum hack testing or beta hacks and its purpose would instantly be clear.