Angry .Orgers

[Talisman]

A few days ago, "The Geek" posted a message here that was directed at me, specifically by name. I've been away from the site since I read his post that morning, but I can reply to this now ... so I will.

To The Geek:

>> 1. Talisman, don't get so angry. .Org isn't just for you and your beliefs toward scripts, its about everyones beliefs here.

That's a very strange thing for you to say, The Geek. As an active participant at this forum, I have the exact same perogative as you do to express my opinion on the subject... which I have done in this thread and in the related poll question that was posted. You may not agree with me and you may not like what I say, but that's your problem; not mine. I suggest you find a way to accept that.

Have I ever made any statement -- anywhere -- that I'm the only person who should speak up about this or that I'm the only person who should be heard? No, not at all. The claim you make here that I would or that I ever have is just ridiculous. I have something to say on this subject, so I say it ... the same as you do. It's as simple as that.

>> 2. We have been told only a minority want information on commercial scripts in this thread by staff. The poll (so far anyway!) has proven that is not the case.

I don't believe that's true, The Geek. And I don't recall seeing a message from ANY staff person where they've said this and I've looked for the reference. If I've missed something, would you or someone else point me (us) to the staff member's post? (Thank you.)

Has anyone else said that we or they don't want any information at all on commercial hacks? Of course not. I'm quite sure we all want this information available -- just maybe handled differently than you wish, is all. I believe most of us also want the option to pay someone for a premium hack... if it's something we really want and we can afford the purchase price. At the same time though, it is a valid argument to make that adding commercial advertisement to a not-for-profit .org site will drastically change the purpose and function of this site.

Many people here oppose that change because it's really hard, already, for us to find many people who are willing to help beginners learn and to help us develop our sites without charging a price up-front for doing this. This isn't just my view... many of us who lack great expertise and who've been coming here for a long time have seen a big difference. It wasn't as bad as it is now just a few years ago. More people were willing to help us without stopping first to quote their fee schedule and discuss acceptable payment methods.

Now, I acknowledge that you don't agree with all the opposing views in this discussion and there's nothing wrong with that... but please don't characterize differing positions inaccurately. That only serves to cloud this issue and that's not fair to any of us.

>> 3. In no way does that warrant a change on its own, however it does suggest that many users would feel they would benefit from it. At that stage, it only seems logical to start discussion on the best way to do this while still maintaining the 'harmony' of .org.

I don't see a problem with this. The suggestion has been brought up for open discussion and many people feel very strongly about it on both sides of the argument. It seems clear to me that going forward with this change of purpose/direction at this .org site would NOT maintain harmony within our membership at all. For that matter, this is the most contentious debate I've ever seen at this site.

There are several other alternatives available to advertise commerical hacks, so I believe those options should be further explored and developed instead. I honestly don't see that the same option exists, however, for vB owners who want to share knowledge -- as we do here -- without the added influences we get from commercial soliciting.

A "not-for-profit" .org site does NOT benefit the extended vB community it serves by allowing its members to advertise openly and to solicit their fellow members at this site.

>> 4. The poll is still new, its not a specific poll, its an informal poll, sure there are a lot of things not perfect about the poll - however at least it does put an end to the 'only commercial script authors want .org to have them here' play.

It seems to me that you deliberately try to confuse this issue.. and that's not cool. If you're trying to quote me here, then you've definitely made a mistake because that's not what I said. I would think you should know better.

>> 5. Ill skip addressing the rest of your pointed points as they are of the usual tone. Maybe if you had produced any work and supported it for others to use here over the past 3 years, you wouldn't be so quick to pass judgment.

I hope everyone here will take a very close look at this. Because this attitude is EXACTLY the problem I have been talking about. Experienced coders at this .org site should be willing to encourage/support other members here who have less experience than they do.. even when there's some disagreement. Certainly, not try to slap them down like this one just did with me. I don't know this "The Geek" person at all, other than as a username I've seen here for someone who's developed commercial/non-commercial hacks for vB. But I know, for damn sure, that he doesn't know me or my personal circumstances, either.

The Geek.... that was a nasty thing for you to say. Where do you come off talking to me (or anyone else here) like that? You think it's okay to put me down .... just because I disagree with you... or because I voice my opinion... or because I don't have the same level of technical expertise that you have? Shame on you for this. Your attitude in that post is really pathetic. :ermm:

[plubius]

Originally Posted by Talisman

A few days ago, "The Geek" posted a message here that was directed at me, specifically by name. I've been away from the site since I read his post that morning, but I can reply to this now ... so I will.

To The Geek:

..........

All of the above was well written. I have seen some of these so called expertise and he wants money for a hack that is not even finished.

Part of what you are saying ties in to why some oppose allowing a paid section here at org in that it will create a split class. On the one side we will have coders who will get paid and on the other we will have the FOC coders. How long will it be before the former looks down the nose at the latter? How long will it be before pressure is applied to convert the FOC coder to a paid one? Another reason for opposition is the question of the free scripts starting to suffer from lack of substance and functioncality and the only real ones will cost you a mint?

Here at the org we are all a community of board owners for the most part. We also have a special faction of coders that have for the most part over the years provided the rest of the community with free hacks and all has been content. It has been said that money ruins everything and I think we have no clearer proof of this than with this debate.

Here's is some math for the elitist coders out there who would talk down to us board owners. First we out number you. You treat one of us with disrespect, we remove your hack and pretend it never existed. We tell all of our friends that have boards about how bad you suck and maybe they will do the same. If you keep offending other board owners then eventually your hack will be only a bunch of codes that no one wants.

[MJM]

Coders are like creative artists, of which one must accept that some eccentricity is not abnormal ... there fore if a coder produces A1 work, I wouldn't give a rats arse about personality idiosyncrasies.

I would think that coders would continue to provide FOC's if ...
- more who have installed the mod would chip in and answer support questions to those less technically endowed.
- if more beneficiaries of the free mod would voluntarily donate a few bucks to their cause.
This would show that we're not just a bunch of free loaders.

~ Mark
I will never code, but as an artist in other mediums, I greatly appreciate the combined creativeness and spirit of good will that coders have given to vB.
Offering some form of recompense for services rendered is certainly not out of order.

[sabret00the]

meh i think paid hacks should be allowed on vb.org. people say that gratitude isn't down to £££ and to a certain extent you're right, however £££ goes a long way in providing this. people say that the coding is the easy part and to a certain extent they're right, i must say that i have atleast one hack where i'd be willing to release it for free but the support would take too much outta me, not to mention that for all the support i've given privately with the hack i don't recall anyone asking for my paypal details. coding and support is time consuming and while it's great to have it for free more gratitude should be shown, i.e. if it has an efficacious effect on your site you should take the inititive to contact the author asking for their paypal address and show them a little gratitude like that. i remember not long ago their was a coder here that was releasing mods regularly, his license ran out and that was the end to him, when he got back he released some more work and people installed it but weren't quite willing to think how he managed to get back. people need to realise that for the coders especially it costs to be here, theirs alot more giving than taking and absolutely no reason why people show their gratitude with £££.

but alas paid mods are not about to be allowed here. so my next suggest would be a directory, in which you're allowed to put 5 mods in a box via the cp that are for sale and if a user should want them they can contact the authors, it's alot like a signature directory. even as an end user i must say that knowing what's out there and available to enhance my community would really assist me, i'm trying to take over the world, a few mods along the way really wouldn't hinder me, even if they cost me.

PS. at this moment i think only extensions should cost, maybe, not quite sure yet, but i'm leaning over to that a way.

[plubius]

sabret00the also has a strong point. Gratitude should be shown. Those with a few extra bucks to spare should help out those coders.

[The Geek]

Sheesh. All right, ill bite!

I would suggest you go back to the post you dissected and re-read it without anger. I honestly can not see anything there that can be construed as angry. If anything, I thought (and still do after re-reading it a few times) that I was being diplomatic.

For most here, commercial information is a contentious issue at .org. What I have a difficult time accepting is the Black and White mentality when given out by people who do not code and contribute to the site. Not because coders are better and therefore have more valid input, but rather because they are the ones putting in the time to write and support code FOC for others to use. Yes, in retrospect I can see how that may seem elitist, however that isn't the intention. The intention is to say that:

There is a huge base of Jelsoft customers (coders and non coders) that feel it would be a benefit to have a repository (directory, threads, whatever) of information on how to gain access to scripts that are not only FOC contributions. Likewise, there seems to be a base that want to keep it off of .org at all costs. Why? Why does it even affect you if you don't even write the code in the first place!?!? What seems to come from that attitude is that giving a voice for commercial scripts would take away the well of free work that others benefit from around here.

I can fully respect that many do not know how to code (or even want to). However I find it ironically hypocritical that those that do not give their time producing free work and supporting it should be so negative about discussing the creation of an information centre for those that want to make more informed decisions about what they get (Free or Paid) to enhance their site.

As for the comment about me selling code that isn't even finished I think its fair to point out that I actually don't 'want' money for stuff I haven't completed. What I have done is say 'this isn't finished, buy with caution if your desperate '. Whats great about that is that people can make an informed choice. Personally, I would prefer that people don't buy something I make until its done however this way they have a choice in the matter. I like to think that it is a reflection of the quality of my work, support and trust that people have in my ability to provide them with quality enhancements (even if they aren't even done!).

I charge for some of my work and I give much of it away here FOC. If its something I put a shed load of time into and don't want to give it away for free, then who cares? No one is worse off for it. After all, I wouldn't of released it free anyway and those wanting it free don't have to buy it!

Here's is some math for the elitist coders out there who would talk down to us board owners. First we out number you. You treat one of us with disrespect, we remove your hack and pretend it never existed. We tell all of our friends that have boards about how bad you suck and maybe they will do the same. If you keep offending other board owners then eventually your hack will be only a bunch of codes that no one wants.

I am really shocked over this statement. In fact, this type of attitude is one of the reasons I started this thread.

Look, I apologize if I came off hard against you Talisman - hand on heart I didn't mean to. In fact, I had actually made a comment about me being pissed off about non contributors attitudes on this subject. I edited the post and removed that comment within minutes of posting it because it was wrong of me. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion on the subject regardless of how much they contribute.

To be honest, I'm pretty spent on the whole issue. I have only seemed to turn into the poster child for commercial add ons because I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut when I find an issue that I feel is unfair. The issue is whether .org should provide a resource for customers to become informed about commercial add ons. To me, I find it unfair when those that do not give their free time creating and supporting work FOC want to suppress information about those that do. Please don't take it as I am pointing fingers at anyone in particular - I'm generalizing.

Once again, apologies if you were offended.

[Revan]

As people said, the "freeloaders" should donate some back. As a coder with a fairly large mod released (for free), I can say that having a few dollorz land in my paypal every now and then would really help me make a better desicion in the times where I go "Work on the ever-lasting RPG or play some Lineage II...?".

The thing most people here seem to be missing is this:
THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DIRECTORY OF OFF-SITES WITH PAID MODS, AND to HAVE VBULLETIN.ORG HOST THESE MODS.
I do apologise for the enormous font, but having someone draft up a HUGE post complaining about how the average coder will see this addition as a way to get $5 a piece for his hack, which IS NOT TRUE, annoys me more than reading that font.
The user must HOST and SUPPORT his hack HIMSELF (or herself <3).

Ok to use myself as an example (yet again, I do love the sound of my own ...typing..?):
I don't know what different "Links and Directories" hacks exist out there. There may be paid ones, there may be free ones. I can search the org and maybe find one (I think I saw one here the other month), but it might be lacking some of the advanced functions I am looking for.
"Google Is Your Friend", sure, but thing is, I suck balls at google searching. It's true. I probably wouldn't be able to find my own penis if it required google searching.
I don't want vB,org to be a feedback system
I don't want vB,org to show users rating of the paid hack
I want a simple, searchable database of sites and what paid hacks they offer

Do you honestly think that Joe/Jane Coder will hassle with paying for hosting, making a nice design on the site, secure a members area, setup a support board and market the hack if he couldn't get more than $5 for it? Please. That, quite simply, is retarded.
However, if Joe Coder has made a hack that by all professional standards is worth $20 or more, can afford to invest in hosting/board licence and thinks he can handle the pressure of support for his hack, then I beg of you, give me 1, just ONE good reason why he should go through the same pressure of support (or in most cases, a bigger pressure) just so people can demand professional-level support and an excellent hack for free.
What in most cases will happen is that Joe Coder will say "sod this" because he either has to release it for free with limited support (which is bad for the users), or hassle with marketing his hack himself. He can't advertise it HERE, so he has to try to get word of mouth going. Both of which may be too big of a hassle for Joe Coder, and he will just not bother with it.
But if he could list his site in a directory at the Ultimate vBulletin Resource, then the word of mouth would spread with little effort on his end, and the community would be able to benefit from his mod.

Yeah, thats right. Instead of thinking "ohs teh noes, we have to pay $20 for a quality hack! /cryface", think that without those $20 you probably wouldn't have that particular hack at all. Sure, someone else might have had the same idea and made some half-assed free mod with support that died within the month, but Joe Coder will take his excellent hack to his grave.
Is the greater evil really the $20?

[sabret00the]

decent post but the huge font sucks.

[Zachariah]

Originally Posted by sabret00the

decent post but the huge font sucks.

I read the big font in the same time as rest of the post

[Chris M]

Originally Posted by Revan

As people said, the "freeloaders" should donate some back. As a coder with a fairly large mod released (for free), I can say that having a few dollorz land in my paypal every now and then would really help me make a better desicion in the times where I go "Work on the ever-lasting RPG or play some Lineage II...?".

The thing most people here seem to be missing is this:
THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DIRECTORY OF OFF-SITES WITH PAID MODS, AND to HAVE VBULLETIN.ORG HOST THESE MODS.
I do apologise for the enormous font, but having someone draft up a HUGE post complaining about how the average coder will see this addition as a way to get $5 a piece for his hack, which IS NOT TRUE, annoys me more than reading that font.
The user must HOST and SUPPORT his hack HIMSELF (or herself <3).

Ok to use myself as an example (yet again, I do love the sound of my own ...typing..?):
I don't know what different "Links and Directories" hacks exist out there. There may be paid ones, there may be free ones. I can search the org and maybe find one (I think I saw one here the other month), but it might be lacking some of the advanced functions I am looking for.
"Google Is Your Friend", sure, but thing is, I suck balls at google searching. It's true. I probably wouldn't be able to find my own penis if it required google searching.
I don't want vB,org to be a feedback system
I don't want vB,org to show users rating of the paid hack
I want a simple, searchable database of sites and what paid hacks they offer

Do you honestly think that Joe/Jane Coder will hassle with paying for hosting, making a nice design on the site, secure a members area, setup a support board and market the hack if he couldn't get more than $5 for it? Please. That, quite simply, is retarded.
However, if Joe Coder has made a hack that by all professional standards is worth $20 or more, can afford to invest in hosting/board licence and thinks he can handle the pressure of support for his hack, then I beg of you, give me 1, just ONE good reason why he should go through the same pressure of support (or in most cases, a bigger pressure) just so people can demand professional-level support and an excellent hack for free.
What in most cases will happen is that Joe Coder will say "sod this" because he either has to release it for free with limited support (which is bad for the users), or hassle with marketing his hack himself. He can't advertise it HERE, so he has to try to get word of mouth going. Both of which may be too big of a hassle for Joe Coder, and he will just not bother with it.
But if he could list his site in a directory at the Ultimate vBulletin Resource, then the word of mouth would spread with little effort on his end, and the community would be able to benefit from his mod.

Yeah, thats right. Instead of thinking "ohs teh noes, we have to pay $20 for a quality hack! /cryface", think that without those $20 you probably wouldn't have that particular hack at all. Sure, someone else might have had the same idea and made some half-assed free mod with support that died within the month, but Joe Coder will take his excellent hack to his grave.
Is the greater evil really the $20?

Not all free coders code "half-assed" mods...

That attitude in itself is a good reason that this shouldn't happen...

Chris