Knife Crime in the United Kingdom

[Shelley_c]

Are you on about the two 10 year olds that killed james bulger
the guy that raped a 15 year old girl repeatable in his caravan (Had his balls chopped off). That's good justice.

Don't all goverments do this already, Casualties of war? what's the difference? explain to me what makes ones person word better than the next?

Obviously, the crime would need to be 100% certain tied to the offender being convicted. In the case of the Birmingham six this was pure neglect by the police who would tie the crime to anyone. They wanted a quick arrest and broke all the rules to get that arrest resulting in father of the innocents dieing in prison.

This is a case of serious police neglect. Sure you were posting an example though that was a bad example.

I believe the justice in the uk is piss poor as do most of the united kingdom. The system is all about prosecuting hard working people and fineing them for petty crap whilst allowing the scum of society to do the serious crimes and slapping them on the wrists.

Edit: I'm sorry to hear about that Tim and like uklive said good that you made it through. I agree the scars mentally can be there for a long time.Of course, the police will make a good solid case some of the time and put their lives at risk (no argument from me there) everyone is different police are humans only for these spineless solicitors to get them off scott free when it comes to the court date. You have the middle man serving his/her own agenda whether it's getting rich and making a fast back only to have these scums of the earth back on the street doing the same crime again and getting the same slap on the wrist justice. Simply saying that it's not always down to the policing system. Like I said Tim, good to hear you made it through though again the mental scarring is there for a long time.

[agitated]

IMHO the law in the UK is fine.
The punishment for some crimes is not fine.

Our courts need to stop mamby pambering and take a hard line with some criminals.
Yes knife crime punishments ought to be the same as for gun crime punishments.
Gun or Knife both weapons that are used to kill and in the UK do not need to be carried around casually or otherwise.

Increase the sentences. I'd pay more tax to fund new prisons if it were necessary.
Not too much more.

[students_forum]

Originally Posted by Shelley_c

Are you on about the two 10 year olds that killed james bulger
the guy that raped a 15 year old girl repeatable in his caravan (Had his balls chopped off). That's good justice.

Don't all goverments do this already, Casualties of war? what's the difference? explain to me what makes ones person word better than the next?

Obviously, the crime would need to be 100% certain tied to the offender being convicted. In the case of the Birmingham six this was pure neglect by the police who would tie the crime to anyone. They wanted a quick arrest and broke all the rules to get that arrest resulting in father of the innocents dieing in prison.

This is a case of serious police neglect. Sure you were posting an example though that was a bad example.

I believe the justice in the uk is piss poor as do most of the united kingdom. The system is all about prosecuting hard working people and fineing them for petty crap whilst allowing the scum of society to do the serious crimes and slapping them on the wrists.


Edit: I'm sorry to hear about that Tim and like uklive said good that you made it through. I agree the scars mentally can be there for a long time.Of course, the police will make a good solid case some of the time and put their lives at risk (no argument from me there) everyone is different police are humans only for these spineless solicitors to get them off scott free when it comes to the court date. You have the middle man serving his/her own agenda whether it's getting rich and making a fast back only to have these scums of the earth back on the street doing the same crime again and getting the same slap on the wrist justice. Simply saying that it's not always down to the policing system. Like I said Tim, good to hear you made it through though again the mental scarring is there for a long time.

what? You are so confusing and your English is impossible to follow.
I am saying that the Birmingham six would have been killed had you had your way. You want capital punishment to be brought back in, remember?
I was using the Birmingham six as an example of how bad that idea is. Everybody at the time, were convinced that they planted a bomb and killed people ... but as it turns out they didn't. It doesn't matter why. The fact remains that killing someone makes you no different to the killer, and the circle of violence continues.

Anyway. The British legal system works pretty well to most people ~ hence it is still the way it is. If people didn't approve and wanted the sort of rubbish you want, then it would have been changed. But thankfully, we don't want to go back to caveman days of cutting peoples' private parts.

End of.

[The Geek]

Originally Posted by UKBusinessLive

Gun Crime is on the increase in the UK Wayne, Nottigham, and Manchester have at least one gun related crime daily.

As ever with these things, it depends on how you evaluate the data. So lets evaluate the facts with the 'hardest line' we can: Gun Deaths. In January, it was reported that we hit a 20 year low in number of gun deaths in the UK bringing it to a whopping 42 in 2008.

Lets compare that with the number of annual deaths a year in America which offers far 'looser' gun control laws: more than 30,000 gun deaths per year.

Now, the USA is almost 5 times larger than the UK, so lets 'gross' the figures up, to get a more relative comparison: 210 gun deaths a year in the UK to more than 30,000 gun deaths a year in the USA.

Hmmmm.... I think we can all agree that is a rather noticeable gap.

Before you go all Charlton Heston on me, I agree that guns don't kill people just like nuclear weapons do not kill people. Both items however just make it far too freaking easy for a trigger happy owner to cause permenant damage in a moment of stupidity. Removing guns does not remove a morons desire to 'kill', people substitute the 'power' of a gun for the next 'best' thing: the power of a knife, brick, broken glass, whatever.

Not that I am advocating secondary weapons, but I think we can agree that there is far easier to kill someone with a gun then a secondary weapon. I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that even adding deaths from these secondary weapons to the annual gun death total in the UK won't bring us anywhere in line with the USA gun death total alone.

Since you cannot legislate to remove a thugs desire to cause maximum harm with minimum risk, all you can do is try to do is maximise the penalty (and enforce it) and make it as difficult as possible to get hold of 'weapons' people might use to kill someone.

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

When you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.

So is the reverse true then? The right to bear arms sure as hell isn't protecting the people from outlaws now so what is the alternative? If the result of tough gun control reduces gun deaths by over 99.9% per year and means that my kids don't have to walk through metal detectors to get into school then it is a pretty simple equation.

The other option is bullet control http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFcVwDw4YLE

[Wayne Luke]

Originally Posted by The Geek

So is the reverse true then? The right to bear arms sure as hell isn't protecting the people from outlaws now so what is the alternative? If the result of tough gun control reduces gun deaths by over 99.9% per year and means that my kids don't have to walk through metal detectors to get into school then it is a pretty simple equation.

Actually, in most states, it is illegal to carry a loaded firearm. One exception is Texas which loosened fiream carrying laws in 1999 and saw a decrease in violent crime by 20%. So yes, if regular citizens were allowed to carry guns more often, criminals would think twice before trying to rob, rape or beat someone.

My kids don't walk through metal detectors to get into school either. Even then that isn't a big deal. You walk through RFID scanners every day when you go to the store. A metal detector isn't any different. They can be programmed to ignore belts, jewelry and other small metallic items. Something I learned when I worked in a Juvenile Detention Facility and had to walk through metal detectors about 40 times a day. It isn't a big deal. It is also easier to conceal a silicon knife, sold at any kitchen supply store, than a gun. Lack of metal detectors doesn't mean your kids are any safer from harm.

Oh and one thing you forgot to mention is that most gun deaths in the United States are not caused by crime. They are accidental shootings and suicide. While there is nothing you can do to prevent someone from taking their own life if they are set on it, education can help with the accidental deaths. I do advocate full training and qualification for gun owners to make sure they can use the tool they purchase. This would happen before they could purchase. All of my children have cleaned, loaded, and shot guns in their lives. It is crucial education when there is the potential to be around them. No less important than driving lessons. I have been around guns all my life and have only seen a gun used to threaten another person once, even when working in the prison system. That one time was when someone was trying to break into our elderly neighbor's house with a knife. My father held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police arrived.

I also believe that weapon control whether it be guns, knives, clubs, brass knuckles, whatever is not the answer to reducing crime. Governments need to focus on the motives for committing the crimes and eliminate them. The top motives would be hunger and poverty. Once you eliminate as many motives as you can, than you punish the ones that do it simply for greed or to cause suffering severely. You don't punish someone trying to feed his family the same way.

[Caddyman]

In a area like texas, when gun laws are looser, more good guys have guns then bad guys. They are from the south, they like guns, I don't want to profile people but it is what it is, my family is from the mid west and south and they love guns...lol

In my area of the north east, there are good guys with guns but a lot more bad guys. crime rates are crazy. In Philadelphia they have a violent gun death (or 2) daily.

[The Geek]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

So yes, if regular citizens were allowed to carry guns more often, criminals would think twice before trying to rob, rape or beat someone.

Do you want a 20% reduction on 30kpa or 99.9% reduction. The problem is not gun availability or laws regarding how and when you can carry them, it is the fact that guns offer the ability far too easily of immediately, irrecoverably taking life in a split second of anger, passion or stupidity.

Take the unfortunate incident of the poster earlier talking about getting 'glassed' in the face. Transplant that incident to the US and there is a higher probability that instead of having his face sliced, it would have been shot off. It is a fallacy that 'the more people have guns the less gun crime exists' because the statistics on a global level already prove that incorrect. This line of thinking is no different than suggesting that if every country in the world were to have nuclear weapons, the world would be a safe place.

I find it odd to rationalise walking though metal detectors to enter a school. Sure it isn't a big deal to do the walking, but the point I was making had more to do with the reason they were there in the first place! Kids were taking guns into schools!

This isn't the wild west any longer. We the people do not need an amendment to ensure we can form a militia to overthrow the corrupt government. We the people need to say that enough is enough.

I am also not suggesting that the rest of the world is a crime and violence free Utopia. The suggestion is that when you remove the guns, you remove a damn huge portion of stupid deaths.

And FWIW, I live in the UK, but my first 25 years on this planet was growing up in the States where my parent (still) are gun-toting-NRA-card-carrying-pryitoutomycolddeadhands kind of folks. So I too grew up around guns and the mentality, but fortunately living the last 10 years in a country where guns are illegal has shown me how idiotic the whole concept of firearms in the 21st century really is.

[Wayne Luke]

We'll have to agree to disagree on United States gun laws. The topic is still United Kingdom Knife Crime which is among the highest in the world. I am still amazed that instead of incarceration, no one has tried to figure out how to lower the incidence of crime altogether. Incarceration doesn't work and then you're left with capital punishment and executions. While I am certainly aware that some crimes merit execution of the perpetrator, it has not proven to be a deterrent.

I still believe that jobs and improving the livelihood of people in crime ridden areas is the best way to reduce crime in those same areas.

[lasto]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

I still believe that jobs and improving the livelihood of people in crime ridden areas is the best way to reduce crime in those same areas.

So do you suggest that we give people who have been living off the state for years and have proberly given nothing back to the community they live in - big hand outs to help them better themselfs in life.
Lets build them new community centers/Youth clubs/and parks for them to vandalise or burn down when they feel like it.
And while we doing that lets forget all about the people who have worked hard all their lifes to provide their families with a little extra.


How about we do it another way - have a zero tolerance approach and should their kids or themselfs be caught carrying a knife then they will be automatically locked up for a set term regardless of circumstances.
Make parents responsible for their offspring if they under a certain age - allow the parents to use discipline as a simple telling off simply does not work.

Then we will introduce a 3 point system - 3 times before the court on certain charges and you locked up again for a set peroid.
We need to stop pussy footing about and show them we mean business.

Kids are not taught respect these days and its because of this we having the problems we see at the moment.

[Wayne Luke]

Originally Posted by lasto

So do you suggest that we give people who have been living off the state for years and have proberly given nothing back to the community they live in - big hand outs to help them better themselfs in life.
Lets build them new community centers/Youth clubs/and parks for them to vandalise or burn down when they feel like it.
And while we doing that lets forget all about the people who have worked hard all their lifes to provide their families with a little extra.

Not at all. Not handouts but meaningful work is the only way to make someone part of a community. Even if you're already giving them aid than put them to work making their communities better. I advocate the same thing where I live. Welfare and handouts don't provide a solution.

How about we do it another way - have a zero tolerance approach and should their kids or themselfs be caught carrying a knife then they will be automatically locked up for a set term regardless of circumstances.

Then we will introduce a 3 point system - 3 times before the court on certain charges and you locked up again for a set peroid.
We need to stop pussy footing about and show them we mean business.

We have a three-strikes system here in California. With prison construction and facility costs built in, it costs over $200,000 per year per prisoner to keep them incarcerated. This is with little or no return on the dollar. On the other hand we could put 5 people to work with a livable wage with that money. On the flip side, the state spends between $5000 and $7000 per year per student in school.

In the end, all a three-strikes system does is create life long criminals who end up living on the taxpayer's dime for a very long time.

Make parents responsible for their offspring if they under a certain age - allow the parents to use discipline as a simple telling off simply does not work.

Kids are not taught respect these days and its because of this we having the problems we see at the moment.

Quite possibly so. Not all people are capable of being proper parents. There should be more education in this respect so that people understand what its like to be a parent.