Angry .Orgers

[Boofo]

And you and I both know Amy what has happened in the past when an author has gone to "paid" staus. It disrupted everything here for a while. You had authors right and left thinking they could code anything and sell it via the org (in sigs, etc.). And we spent more time dealing with "I have been screwed by so-and-so, he now has my money and is gone" type threads/posts than anything for a while here.

No matter how you work it, once Jelsoft sanctions commercial hacks here, then they (and staff here) will end up being the ones to answer for whatever pops up concerning those hacks. Sure, it looks good on paper, but to actually implement it and make it work will be about as possible as me ever becoming a coder as good as Andreas. Does that sum it all up?

[eXtremeTim]

Originally Posted by cinq

@all, we really need to chill and discuss this in a civil and cool manner.

Oh well, I'll just do up a sort of resource directory on my site now for free listings of all commercial vbulletin resources ( user submitted, pending approval ).
* whips out Crimson editor, gimme a day or 2

I am already working on that. Since my sites gonna offer full php and vbulletin training.

Originally Posted by Boofo

And you and I both know Amy what has happened in the past when an author has gone to "paid" staus. It disrupted everything here for a while. You had authors right and left thinking they could code anything and sell it via the org (in sigs, etc.). And we spent more time dealing with "I have been screwed by so-and-so, he now has my money and is gone" type threads/posts than anything for a while here.

No matter how you work it, once Jelsoft sanctions commercial hacks here, then they (and staff here) will end up being the ones to answer for whatever pops up concerning those hacks. Sure, it looks good on paper, but to actually implement it and make it work will be about as possible as me ever becoming a coder as good as Andreas. Does that sum it all up?

Like we have said restrict to thoose of use that are known as reputable.

[The Geek]

Boofo - you're doom-saying again. Your vision of .org is of tranquility and peacefulness. Along comes an avenue to inform customers of paid additions and suddenly its all evil and seedy.

For all the fire and brimstone, the fact is that with NO outlet for customers to find reputable professionals for add ons, the quality and tone of participation has decreased dramatically here. How is the pessimistic approach going to 'heal the woe'?

Especially as all of the 'ive been screwed by so and so' happens because you basically created a black market for custom work. A directory for commercial scripts are far less likely to cause somebody to take the money and run. Why? Painfully obvious: The scripts already exist and any money being gnerated is from repeat sales. Custom work doesn't fall into this category.

Hopefully that may stop your sky from falling in

Maybe the only solution now is to start vbprofessional, and provide a resource for customers of vb. People can release code FOC or charge for it. It can be a joint venture with the coders there. Then .org can change its slogan to A nice resource for those that like to fiddle with vB'

Would be a shame for vB to have the weakest and angriest resource for its customers.

[cinq]

heh a quick one

[Chris M]

Originally Posted by eXtremeTim

I am already working on that. Since my sites gonna offer full php and vbulletin training.



Like we have said restrict to thoose of use that are known as reputable.

Who deems them reputable? Surely that is the opinion of the person or persons who are reviewing them at the time...

For one, we can't expect the official Jelsoft team to spend their time figuring out which coders are and are not "reputable"...

That then leaves the reputation of a coder's status to fall on us; We can either elect to have the community to vote, and an unpopular person doesn't get "reputable" status because some have a vendetta, or we as the staff have to decide, at which point a user can turn round and demand to know why we haven't deemed them reputable, which can then bring personal issues with the staff here...

The best policy for now is just not to allow it - I imagine it will be revisited several times, but as everyone knows you can't make everyone happy - Some will be put out by either conforming or not conforming to what a certain few believe this site should be like, and at this present time, the hassle of implementing anything before we upgrade to 3.5 is not worth it...

Chris

[Boofo]

Originally Posted by The Geek

Boofo - you're doom-saying again. Your vision of .org is of tranquility and peacefulness. Along comes an avenue to inform customers of paid additions and suddenly its all evil and seedy.

For all the fire and brimstone, the fact is that with NO outlet for customers to find reputable professionals for add ons, the quality and tone of participation has decreased dramatically here. How is the pessimistic approach going to 'heal the woe'?

Especially as all of the 'ive been screwed by so and so' happens because you basically created a black market for custom work. A directory for commercial scripts are far less likely to cause somebody to take the money and run. Why? Painfully obvious: The scripts already exist and any money being gnerated is from repeat sales. Custom work doesn't fall into this category.

Hopefully that may stop your sky from falling in

Maybe the only solution now is to start vbprofessional, and provide a resource for customers of vb. People can release code FOC or charge for it. It can be a joint venture with the coders there. Then .org can change its slogan to A nice resource for those that like to fiddle with vB'

Would be a shame for vB to have the weakest and angriest resource for its customers.

My sky won't fall in no matter how it goes. I'm beyond that.

From what I've seen in this thread so far, and the others before it, there are more against a move to commercialization than are for it. That ought to be some sort of sign, don't you think?

And if it goes that we choose not to allow commercial hacks here, that isn't going to make the org any less of a resource site. It's been doing fine without them so far.

As far as users being able to find commercial addons, there doesn't seem to be any problem with them finding them if they want them. There are a few commercial add-ons that are doing very well, and they don't advertise here.

And like Chris mentioned, who decides who's reputable and who isn't? As far as vb.org being "the weakest and angriest resource for its customers" if we don't allow commercial stuff here, that is YOUR opinion, not the majority's.

I just think it would end up all being more of a headache trying to police it than anything else. And no matter what Jelsoft decides, not everyone is going to be happy or satisfied with the outcome. This debate will linger on forever, in one way or another, no matter how it goes.

I'm done now. This is my final post for this thread. It just isn't worth debating about anymore.

[Lycan]

Originally Posted by Boofo
Too bad we can't get more of the newer memebers to get involved with this discussion. It will ultimately affect them the most.

There are probiably many reasons we havent seen more of the "new crowd" such as people like me..... some of us <me> dont chime in with thoughts or comments because well frankly we're new and dont want to piss off the people that we might need help from later on down the road... others might have bad flashbacks of asking for help or information from other places that are truely full of over inflated egomaniacs that assume we all should know what they know <thinks of what i was told about coppermine>... and then again they simply might not have a clue what to say or add at all and dont want to look the fool by asking/adding to what they dont <but want to> understand.

Originally Posted by AN-net
sorry for the outburst but i am really sick of these people with like 10 posts suddenly being critics who probably do not know how to code a page of html nor what an opening tag of php looks like...

Whereas i agree with this about the ones that gripe complain and are just flat out rude there are some out there who wont ever know how to do that but try <in their minds> to help by asking for, about, or if its possible for something to be done.. or added to a hack that has caught their eye <i for one have im assuming truly annoyed someone who means alot to me that has experience with vB on wether something is possible.. how do you do this or that or just flat out noob type questions (waves at her lol) > anyways its the low post lack of techie skilled people that will in the end be the ones that pay for the commercial hacks for the most part

BTW... incase it might get misunderstood i do realise AN-net ment the ones that were rude and beligerent not just newbies in general so please dont take offence for me using what was said there

Originally Posted by Brad
Back in the early days there was a lot more community support here. When I say this I don't mean support in hack threads, I mean more people were teaching and more people were attempting to learn.

This is one of the reasons i was introduced to this site and the .com site because of how much can be learned through here... of which i truely hope to beable to learn how to do everything from Styles to complex hacks eventually! how to do so? all i can do is ask questions... <search myself silly first looking through the old threads to see if i can find the answer myself first so i dont become a forum mosquito and just pester and buzz anyone and everyone for simple stuff> so in regards to what Brad said.... i hope that "Teaching" support never dissapears... i'm definatly wanting it

Now the actual topic of this thread

where as im a noob when it comes to vB things i completely support the FOC hacks <duh! lol> but i also can understand it from the aspect that somethings no matter how much we'd wish otherwise cant be done as we'd like FOC ... does that mean i'm going to run out and buy every pay hack i come across? ofcourse not thats simple common sense if you want it and need ot, or can use it... buy it . if it exists FOC search for it and use that instead...im a cheapass and im the first to admit it..... but things like portals, styles, hacks, vB itself yes if ive got the money or want it bad enough i'll pay... i might grumble simply because i'll miss my money lol <precious sweet precious cash> but in the end i will bennifet from both paid and FOC items....keep it on your site...add it to this site... make another site.... pay for support and enforce that its given.....whatever actually happens in the end people will still use the site or sites and vB <i think anyways> will still be a great thing.

In Closing

Originally Posted by Chris M
If someone can please come up with a solution that will keep both sides happy, then by all means speak up...

Unfortunatly thats impossible......as its been said before you cant please everyone.... no matter what will be or wont be done someone will always be unhappy about it and sadly some will even gripe complain and flame. For those of you that are the end decision makers for stuff like this ya'll have my sympathys lol youve got a target on you so to speak regardless of which way you go

So...good luck and good discussions everyone... i'm looking forward to hopefully getitng to know and possibly learn from as many of you out there as possible.

<stumbles awkardly off the stage to let the discussions carry on>

[The Geek]

@Boofo Fair enough, I agree that regardless of the outcome, there will be those that will be upset over the decision. The goal however should be on a solution that works for the majority while respecting the needs and requirements of the minority.

While you claim the majority don't want it here, I would disagree and say that my perception is that most are indifferent to it, many think it would be positive and some would hate it. Therefore .orgs process is catering to those few that dig their heels in about it. I do not see an overwhelming amount of people on either side of the fence coming into this thread voicing strong opinions either way. Regardless, I see more coders supporting a move than more coders against it (unless I am wrong you are the only one that has released modifications strongly opposed to it). Taking that into account I feel that its important to give a little more weight to those putting in the work creating, maintaining and supporting over those that just reap the benefits. I am not saying its because they are better people, just that without those doing the work, the others have little to gain.

Maybe put forward a poll?
1- Are you greatly opposed to .org providing information on commercial vb enhancements?
2- Do you think it would be a positive addition to .org to provide information on commercial vb enhancements?
3- I'm not bothered either way.

The only caution I would provide in regards to the above poll is the natural weight of the givers and receivers. Keep in mind that only a tiny % of those on this site actually contribute.

If I were to conduct a poll on my site about 'would you like to see content added to the site however you would have to pay to see those additions?' some would be realistic with 'Sure, if I want it, ill buy it' while many would simply say 'no, give it to us for free' (Especially if I had a vocal moderator who had already made his mind up about it before it had even been discussed )

On a side not: I don't think coders are special, I don't think users are bad. There are people in both camps that are bad - and both have needs but that isn't and shouldn't be the issue anymore. It should be focused on what will move .org forward to become a better resource for Jelsoft customers.

And I apologize for my off hand 'weakest and angriest' comment. It was OTT and irresponsible of me.

[Neutral Singh]

Let me take myself as an average example. i have around 60 cool plugins installed for my forums for FREE.

Now, imagine all of them are paid...

That would force me to shell out a whopping (60 plugin x $30 (at least)) ==> US$1800 per annum, which literally means that poor webmasters like myself, wont never be able to enjoy most of the coolest products anymore...

I think, i would ideally stick with vB.org's present policy of only encouraging FREE community of hackers. Coders with paid PRO versions can always advertise their products in their signatures as presently being done by many. I see no problem with that.

[BluPhoenix]

Basically in my mind.. "It'd be nice to know"

As a vBulletin coder and webmaster it'd be nice to know what commercial stuff there is out there, just because I'm informed of it doesn't mean I haveto buy it, and just because a paid version exists doesn't mean a free one won't eventually.. Infact I think being able to let people know about scripts here could lead to the production of "Lite" versions to aid the commercial venture..

Right now to find out what commercial add-on you can get your hands on it involves word-of-mouth, scrabbling around at hotscripts or on google or maybe if your lucky stumbling across a link in a sig.. It'd be much easier from a users point of view to have a list of whats available here with a few details, a link and then the all important user comments..

Often when your stumbling blind to a developers site you don't have any clue on just how good a script is, and you can't ask other vbulletin users here right now, so for me it'd be nicer to have the links and the feedback here..

Knowledge is Power, and I want the power to run the best vBulletin Powered Forum I can..