I think I've had enough

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by Zachery

I work my ass off on my hacks here and I'm not paid for it, my vB.org time is not reembursed with money, but with the users I educate. If I can walk away educating a few users every day on how to code, even if its as simple as html I've done my job.
I have a problem with the coders who are here for their own personal agendas and reasons.

Translation. You have a problem woth the coders who's agenda's don't line up with your agenda. Everyone has an agenda, everyone.

[Bubble #5]

Originally Posted by Zachery

They are not, they are just part of the community

This is the kind of disrespect toward the coders that will eventually implode a site like this, and eventually vB itself. The coders here are not "just part" of the community, they're key framework that a community like this is built upon. Do you think your house would be standing for very long if you removed its framework? Likewise, if you're going to be so cavalier about an important issue such as this, then all of us paying customers will just make some popcorn and watch this site, and ultimately vB's sales, sink like the Titanic. It seems to me that the decision makers of the Titanic once thought that they were unstoppable to.

the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Why do you think that people come here in the first place? Here's a clue; remove all of the hacks that are here, prevent any new ones from being posted, and you'll soon learn what most of us vB customers already know.

One coder does not make or break this site

I agree, one single coder does not make or break this site. However when it's one coder after another, after another, then like Chinese water torture all of the good coders will have left and gone somewhere else. Now all of a sudden it's a totally different issue. Sounds to me like you think this is a power struggle. It isn't. The coders are doing this in part because they are not given the respect that they are rightfully due. A good leader would seize a situation like this and use it as an opportunity to make this site better, not pour more salt on its wounds. I agree with you that there are a few coders that have used this site as a stepping stone for their own benefit, but we are not talking about those coders. Certainly LiveWire is not one of those coders. He has bent over backwards here and at other sites to help vB customers when his only benifit is knowing that someone who needed help received it. As a customer he has helped me when vB staff has not. It's disturbingly sad that you can't realize what an asset he is here. No doubt he will certainly be missed by the vB customers here.

If EVERY signle person on this forum up and left, it'd be a differnt story.

Well there's an obvious statement I'll even go one better. If people stop having a reason to come here it will adversely effect vB as a company. Here's an example for you. I was about to buy another copy of Vb next month. However, because of all of the cavalier comments like the one that you made above toward the coders here, I will not. That money will now stay in my pocket until I, as a paying customer, can be reassured that the product that I'm paying for is going to be supported by the "coding community". Like most customers I do not have the ability to code very well, which is why I appreciate it so much when others who can code, donate their time and their hacks to a site like this. I didn't buy vB just for its default features, I bought it because of its expandability, but when you think about it all forum software is expandable, and upon closer inspection it's really the caliber of the coding community here that make the big difference. Simply put; No good hacks - no reason for people to buy this software over Invision (or any other brand) that IS supported by a solid coding community. I think most resonable people would agree that if it wasn't for a site like this, that vB wouldn't be so appealing, and you can paint it any way that you want, but the bottom line is that this site is only as good as its coders. It appears to some of us as customers that the higher-ups at vB can't make that fundamental connection. I can't begin to tell you how surprised (and disappointed) I am to learn that fact. One way or another this site will ultimately be shaped through decisions that ultimately shape its environment. I think an open thread like this one is very important. Constructive criticism may not be easy to read, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things, and as we all know when something unhealthy is ignored, its potential to die increases. If all the good coders leave this site then you don't have to be a psychic to know where that will lead. I love vB, I really do, and I hope that they take one step back and realize just how important having good coders here is.

[AWS]

Sorry to see any person that contributes as much as you do leave the community.
The points you raise are valid and have been for a while now. There are staff members that are genuine and I beleive do have community interest in mind. There are others that have God complexes and show it every time they post.
It is sad that the attitude of a few are driving away the backbone of this site. I hope that once Floris brings this to the attention of Wayne that wholesale changes are made. As someone else said in this thread, if the coders leave the site will die.

[The Geek]

Originally Posted by Boofo

You've resorted to name calling and using age as a weapon. Predictability and immaturity both win this time.

The only thing predictable round these parts is the lack of change and the fact that as soon as I post - you pop in your two bits in any attempt you can to 'discredit me'. Boofo is the anti geek!

If all suggestions are taken on board, what about the commercial hack directory or the hack database? There has been little more than peeps on these points.

Anyhooo, reserve the next post for Boofo. He'll be killing himself to respond.

[Logikos]

Sorry Geek, I butted in

Anyways, Bubble #5. I really appriacte the support. It means alot to me to know that my work here is appreciated from everyone here.

I didn't create this thread to stir things up, or tick the staff off. I had to state that obvious things going on around here. I had to tell .org what I think about the site. [cough]Thats why this was in the feedback forum[/cough]. If you want to try and start to changes things. There here are a few suggestions from me.

• I personally would organize the forums alittle diffrently. It seems very cluttered at the moment, at least to me it does. (thats just something small)
• Create a forum structure for coders. Allow our involment in what gets implamented and what shouldn't. Not saying we should have the final say, but at least allow use to have an area where staff and coders can chat about the future things that can be implamented.
  
  Then when 1 idea gets implamented. Instead adding it to a todo list for one of the staff members to handle, we should have a forum that coders can access to help create and code the project. Kinda like a vBulletin.org develoment team.
  
• stop keeping everything such a secret to the community. God forbid if someone knows the values for certain titles. Everyone knows now since it has been changed.
• create a release forum that would host big projects coded by many coders here on vb.org
• setup a donation hack that allows users to donate to authors if they want to. When a user donates any ammount, allow that user to have a icon in that hack that showing that they have contribuate to the coder via donation

These are just a few examples I had in mind. There are others, but my post is getting long enough for me, and frankly I rather not waste my time trying anymore. You say that coders leaving will only make the situation worst. Your absolutely 100% correct. Though, after dealing with it for so long, you simply give up trying.

I tried to be helpful here https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....4&postcount=10 but my post was ignored. The original thread was posted over a month ago and has yet to be fixed. I posted the code to correct this issue but nothings been done. If we had something like the above mentioned features, things like that wouldn't happen as often, and coders wouldn't be leaving the site or starting a petition.

[Revan]

Disclaimer: I don't speak for all the coders. I speak for me, but I take liberties of assuming that to a certain extent, some of my fellow coders agree with me.
Also, when I use the term coder, in all cases where designers feel affected by what I say (for better or worse), I mean both coder and designer. I just cba to write "coders and designers" 572 times. Sue me.

Originally Posted by Zachery

They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks.

Not to harp specificly on LiveWire, PAul, or The Geek. But I could possibly say that about most any coder here. One coder does not make or break this site, the entire community does. If EVERY signle person on this forum up and left, it'd be a differnt story. But they arn't and won't so I'd rather not worry about it.

Is it sad? Sure, but things will move on and people will get on with their lifes. Anyone who leaves this site for whatever reason should do so and not need to make a post about it.

This post has a level of ignorance I hardly thought possible.
Not to mention the fact that I find it offensive.
I don't want to appear as having a "holier than thou" attitude but it is a fact that it's the coders that make this site. As others have stated, what would vBulletin.org be without the coders? Check out the 3.5 Modification Requests forum. 25% of the threads on the first page (at the time of writing this) has no replies. 50% of the remaning threads have 1-5 replies saying "I second this request". Exactly 3 threads have more than 5 posts which would indicate either a whole lot of "seconded" or maybe actually some serious discussion.
My point? The fact that none of these threads gets any involvement from the coders because they don't feel like it's worth their time. I count myself in that group. Every coder that reads a request and lets it fly Ill wager thinks something like "meh, this isn't worth my time".
Why do coders think like this? Because of the attitude depicted above. Coders are replaceable. Guess what, we don't come in an infinite supply. Surely you all must have noticed that the coder count dwindles and the number of "help me plix" increases.
What makes a newbie into a coder? Willpower and motivation. The newbie is responsible for the willpower, vbulletin.org (I mean everybody. Staff, coders and other members) is responsible for the motivation. vBulletin.org, at this point, is unable to provide the motivation.

I refuse to believe the willpower of the members has changed simply due to the fact that the plugin system appeared. If people want to learn how to code, then they will learn how to code if they are supplied with motivation.
What I feel that vBulletin.org is doing wrong, is not offer any form of incentive for coders to help supply motivation. There are a few points which could help amend this:

1. Make the coders feel wanted and needed.
   It may sound stupid and make the coders sound selfish, but guess what, we aren't all commies. Recieving more positive feedback from users that installed our hacks goes a long way since we are all doing it for free.

Now I am not saying the staff alone is responsible for the abovementioned. But as I stated, all of vBorg need to help with supplying motivation, and I believe that what of the above members could do, they should do.
Now I know what some of you equalists are thinking. "z0mg, coders aren't worth more than Bob or Jane" (no offense to Boobiefool or his 16 year old girlfriend), but guess what, on this site, coders are the only ones who contribute to this site in any worthwhile amount. This is not a bloody Sports site where you argue whos going to win the Super Bowl, people! This is a place where coders can share their work and rest easier knowing that all them Jack Sparrows of the world (Pirates) don't get their dirty hands on their work as easily as they would if this was an FTP directory. Give me one good reason why vBorg shouldn't cater more to the coders (yes, this means the hack db, commercial scripts, and more than just a cozy little private forum).

To return to the first statement in the quoted post from Zachery:

Originally Posted by Zachery

They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks.

Allow me to match this segment up against another statement made:

Originally Posted by Xenon

vbulletin.org was a board for coders

I believe it's time for the coders to take back vBorg. We are the backbone of this board. Yeah, I do believe we should have a greater influence on how this board works, mainly because we are directly generating income for Jelsoft. It's been said over and over again, many people buy vB because of the amount of great hacks that can do whatever they would want their bbs do beyond threads and sigs.
If coders were put in a different usergroup, with a colored username, I believe this would be a bigger incentive. It would be more than just 9pt text that changed. It would be something more significant. It would mean you are a contributor to this community. Tell me, my fellow coders: How many of you look upon your "x Coder" title and feel that you are being recognised as a valuable contributor to this site? I sure as hell don't, not anymore.
Also I believe that such a change would offer at least part of the motivation the users would need to become coders. You would feel like you were noticed. So I don't see how this is bad for the community.

vBorg need to stop thinking so much about the vast majority of people that only come here to get support for their hacks and post questions. Take the commercial hacks thread. 90% of the posts from normal members were as ignorant as Zacherys post or close to it, or just sheer dumb. That skewed the results. What the members think is not always what is going to incent the coders to stay here. I can sit here and claim their opinion hold little value to me (beyond royally pissing me off) because they don't contribute. Most of them come here to leech. Who cares if they dont agree with coders wanting to get a little money for their countless hours of work? If you want to talk replaceable, you should look at the members. I don't actually remember the username of a single regular member, but I know the names of a fair few coders.

vBorg is no longer a community of coders. It is a place where those that don't have the energy to commit to the commercial world or don't want to lose the anti-piracy security come and release their mods. That is what has been degrading this site. This decline will continue. Coders will not be infinitely replaced.
I don't like where this is going, do you?

[Boofo]

Well said.

[high]* Boofo checks Jane's birth certificate and wonders why she said she was older.[/high]

[Logikos]

Originally Posted by Raven

What makes a newbie into a coder? Willpower and motivation. The newbie is responsible for the willpower, vbulletin.org (I mean everybody. Staff, coders and other members) is responsible for the motivation.

Thats my friend, is exacly the statment I was looking for. Let me quote this beatiful quote just once more. I wouldn't want anyone to miss it.

Originally Posted by Raven

What makes a newbie into a coder? Willpower and motivation. The newbie is responsible for the willpower, vbulletin.org (I mean everybody. Staff, coders and other members) is responsible for the motivation.

[Mephisteus]

Very well put Revan, I couldn't agree more.

Back when I begun I was very much an amateur to coding. The main reason that I didn't stop at one hack was because I got help and support from a few coders who had been around the block and remained positive. Xenon, Lesane, Boofoo were major help and encouragement. After reading some of the PMs I sent. The poor grammar in it, the fact that I was 14/15 years old... they still were patient helping me greatly with a few hacks.

That however, is a long time ago.

[Mr Chad]

I wouldnt mind seeing those in actions into effect