What do you think about Vbulletin vs Xenforo?

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by Adrian Schneider

XF doesn't use that much of Zend Framework...the knowledge isn't as transferable as you'd expect. When people refer to "using" ZF, they mean the full stack framework, particularly the MVC stuff. That is all custom in XF.

Now, if a programmer is competent with Zend Framework, programming is programming, and add-on development for XF is more like regular programming. It's not as random as it is with vBulletin.

True. http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=78018

Developing XenForo is complete reboot for you, starting with a clean slate from the inception of the project. Was that a bit daunting at first? Or was it all good?

Starting from scratch was a big challenge, but it presented some unique opportunities to do things our own way.

We knew that we had a very limited time scale to get things rolling, so we decided to use Zend Framework to provide specific functionality that would have involved reinventing the wheel if we did it ourselves. This allowed us to get started on actual application code much more quickly than we would have been able to do had we written that stuff ourselves. For example, we make use of Zend_Controller_Request_Http and Zend_Db, as they provide almost precisely what we want, but we wrote our own MVC system as we had a very specific idea of what we wanted to achieve.

As time has gone by, we have unplugged various bits of Zend code and provided our own replacements that better suit our requirements, however there are still Zend components in XenForo for the time being, and they will certainly remain into the 1.x releases, as we don’t see a pressing need to remove them at this point.

I think our decision to make use of a framework (albeit in a limited fashion) has worked out well, as we have been able to spend a lot more time producing front-end functionality and refining the user experience into something really polished and pleasant to use.

The platform we have built surprises me on a daily basis with its stability and flexibility. We are still making major changes behind the scenes in the XenForo code, and yet we are running XenForo.com with a live checkout from SVN that is updated dozens of times every day.

I’m also extremely pleased with the speed at which we are able to build new features, and the way that we can do so without being unduly concerned that new functionality is going to cause existing functionality to fall over unexpectedly.

[Barcham]

Originally Posted by BirdOPrey5

As we saw from the documents released during the lawsuit they were bound by a 1 year non-compete clause.

XenForo didn't become a thing until the day the non-compete expired.

Part of the lawsuit was the fact VB felt this meant they were competing / breaking the agreement by working on XenForo (before it had a public name.)

The reality is however that the precedent set in both the State of California (where Internet Brands is based) and the UK make non-compete clauses unenforceable as a practical matter. Had those been the only charges in the lawsuit IB may have had the moral highground they would have easily lost the case.

I find that surprising. Here in Canada, non-compete clauses are common in the IT realm. I have signed many in my lifetime and generally they include a clause that states any product design based on the intellectual property or product line of the former employer within 'X' years becomes the property of the previous employer. I have always found that to be a reasonable term of a contract. But the law is the law and it there have been precedents set, you have to live with them.

Originally Posted by katie hunter

...

Just as i describe it, opportunists.

I don't consider that to be opportunistic, I consider it to be good business sense and a smart move. If you are skilled in a certain thing and you know what you can put on the market, and you know that you can do so legally and above board, I see nothing wrong with doing so. If you find yourself in a dead end, where you have no room for growth or advancement and the conditions of employment have deteriorated to be not in your favour, there is nothing wrong with branching out on your own. Without such 'opportunists', technology would have ground to a halt decades ago.

I still think their forums are very poorly moderated and more like a kindergarten than a place for adult discussion, however. And that does reflect poorly on the company as a whole in my eyes.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by Barcham

I find that surprising. Here in Canada, non-compete clauses are common in the IT realm. I have signed many in my lifetime and generally they include a clause that states any product design based on the intellectual property or product line of the former employer within 'X' years becomes the property of the previous employer. I have always found that to be a reasonable term of a contract. But the law is the law and it there have been precedents set, you have to live with them.



I don't consider that to be opportunistic, I consider it to be good business sense and a smart move. If you are skilled in a certain thing and you know what you can put on the market, and you know that you can do so legally and above board, I see nothing wrong with doing so. If you find yourself in a dead end, where you have no room for growth or advancement and the conditions of employment have deteriorated to be not in your favour, there is nothing wrong with branching out on your own. Without such 'opportunists', technology would have ground to a halt decades ago.

I still think their forums are very poorly moderated and more like a kindergarten than a place for adult discussion, however. And that does reflect poorly on the company as a whole in my eyes.

I wouldn't call them this if they didn't had to resort to bashing and drag the entire Vbulletin community into sympathizing with them when they knew that what they have done would result in a litigation against them, they surely expect it. They also didn't honor the position they were in, they made living from VB for 9 years, as well as gaining fame, and when they had the chance to leave and make XF, they bash it and aimed to split the VB community through their excessive criticize of VB 5.x. Them criticizing VB 5.x to show how XF would be better, is a disgusting move on their behalf.

And now they resort not only to bashing by allowing their community to bash VB constantly, but for their staff to bully and censor as well and they don't even apologize or revise their actions. In my eyes they are unprofessional and their action should be pointed and judged so they can learn that what they did and keep doing is wrong and unprofessional.

Not the type of company i would be proud of. Certainly they lack good communication skills and they've revealed that they don't hold good principles and manners. They obviously didn't like what i say about them on VB and decided to keep the restriction on my profile, they see my comments as troublesome to them and that is why they are insecure.



My conversation with them through tickets, is like running around in a circle, they keep throwing words just to justify their action, and after back and forth for a while i had to ask myself, what is this, is this a company with different level of management or just a regular website selling a product.

[Barcham]

I moderated a rather busy board for 7 years and the way I always looked at it was that membership was a privilege, not a right. If someone did not follow our rules they could choose to leave or have the decision made for them. Personally, I see no reason why someone would remain a member of a board where they did not feel wanted or disagreed with the policies or the way it was run. It's much better to save everyone a lot of frustration and aggravation and to go elsewhere.

[nhawk]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

You're building addons/features for XF and they are using a Zend Framework for their back-end. If i hired a web developer expert in using the Zend Framework, it will be very easy for him or her to code any addon or feature for XF b/c it is using Zend framework for its back-end.

I think you need to understand what the framework is. The framework is a set of common, every day routines that are used in just about every program out there. The entire idea behind the framework IS to speed development without having to write those from scratch.

Kier gave an excellent example in an interview. The DB routines in the Zend Framework. Why on earth would a developer want to reinvent the wheel and write their own DB routine when it's all available in a package?

In my case a lesser example would be in one of the first add-ons I released for XF. I could not find a routine to check if a node was a forum. So I wrote my own routine always knowing there had to be one in XF and to keep an eye out for it. A while later while working on something totally unrelated I found it and had one of those 'I could've had a V8' moments. The code I wrote was removed and replaced with the call to XF.

Compare the Zend Framework to Microsoft's .NET framework or C++ redistributables. Just about every program on your computer (if it's a windows computer) uses those. And for sure every windows program I've ever written use those. They are all common routines that interface with windows. People could write their own, but why on earth would they want to? There is nothing wrong with using them and in many cases they are required.

[rhody401]

Originally Posted by nhawk

The one thing I agree with is XF's business model, namely the yearly fee for updates. That is a consistent cash flow that fuels development. vB should take a look at that. It would retain customers and insure compatibility as development takes place.

You just hit the nail directly on the head, with that opinion, IMO.

If there was a constant source of revenue, they would be able to focus on the core product - rather than being sidetracked to constantly create new sources of income. (to keep the lights on) It would remove the urgency to abandon what works and move on to a drastic change, IMO.

Hopefully some leadership steps in and steers this ship in a healthy way, because I really like VB4.

It's a shame that a couple people turned this discussion into a jr high school level bicker-fest. Enough already

Rhody

[Barcham]

I strongly disagree with a company charging for updates to the same version that you purchased. The only thing someone should be paying for is a complete upgrade to the next version of the software. Paying for incremental updates provides very little incentive to release a bug free product. Release a buggy program and then charge for the fix? I don't think so. For the price being charged, all updates should be included until the next version is released. I do not have to pay for updates to Microsoft Office or any other program and I would not pay for updates to a BBS software either.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by Barcham

I strongly disagree with a company charging for updates to the same version that you purchased. The only thing someone should be paying for is a complete upgrade to the next version of the software. Paying for incremental updates provides very little incentive to release a bug free product. Release a buggy program and then charge for the fix? I don't think so. For the price being charged, all updates should be included until the next version is released. I do not have to pay for updates to Microsoft Office or any other program and I would not pay for updates to a BBS software either.

I also like this policy more than the previous one. Also for existing customers for $199 to renew my license i get vb 4.x (which is why i renewed my license last year) and vb 5.x as well, and that wasn't bad.

To compare

Xenforo is for $140 for new customers + they are adding an enhanced search version for $50 , seriously ? Shouldn't this be part of the core feature, so Xenforo out of the box would actually cost anywhere from $190 - $250 , then you will most probably pay for mini addons to have vb default core features on Xenforo.

If i were XF, i would give my customers the option to use Sphinx Search (VB 5.x already has it built into their system, i think), it is the best out there http://sphinxsearch.com/ instead of saying Enhanced Search for extra. So you're giving me a forum with a not so great search function and you want me to buy the enhanced version for $50

XenForo Enhanced Search - $50*

An enhanced version of the XenForo search system, allowing higher quality results and faster searching for bigger installations.

XenForo Resource Manager - $60*

The XenForo Resource Manager is an add-on that allows you to manage files, downloads, and article-like content within your forum. Extension of support and updates is an additional $15 when you extend your XenForo license.

To summarize

For anyone else wondering: https://xenforo.com/purchase/xenforo-details

XenForo 1-Year Extension - $40, additional cost with add-ons
XenForo Resource Manager - $60 (extension $15)
XenForo Enhanced Search - $50 (extension $10)

Do you really love this as well? You're actually forced to renew for a higher price if you bought an addon and later decided that you won't use it and the only way to get rid of it is by losing it and removing it so you're not forced to renew for a higher price. So you end up losing the entire addon price you originally paid for. So like throwing your money away.

Jeremy a XF staff
No, once you've bought an add-on the renewal increases. You can't renew just XenForo.

Brogan a XF Staff
You can have the add-on removed from your license, but you would need to purchase it again if you want to use it in the future.

Vs.

Vbulletin http://www.vbulletin.com/en/purchases

New customers pay $249 so to round $250 but you get to download VB 5.x , 4.x and 3.x and if you don't like VB 5.x, VB 4.x is there with so many features and wait and see how VB 6.x will look.

Then you don't have to pay yearly like $50 to renew your license, rather you pay a one time fee for the next version and company do know if the next version doesn't improve so well, it won't sell good, so they have to improve it.

--------------- Added [DATE]1394321173[/DATE] at [TIME]1394321173[/TIME] ---------------

XF Staff are extremely intimated by my posts. My account was restricted in a way that all my posts and topics gets moderator, but Today i found out that i can't

1. Pm my friends
2. Can't reply on anyone's profile or mine
3. Can't create any thread or posts.

I am like a lurking guest to them, without the official "Banned" tag under my username.

They are giving me an account that i can't do anything with it, might as well ban it and say to the public that they are crazy hypocrites :0) Seriously grow up. Are you really that intimated that you have to stalk this thread and take action on Xenforo.



At least here i am pointing out few facts instead of simply bashing like you allow on XF :

here's a fact, vbulletin is a slow ugly cheaply coded pile of crap I never want to see again. I used it for a decade. How can xenforo be behind, apart from sales? I don't consider SEO mods, or any mods, for that matter as something I judge the core product on.

[Paul M]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

XF Staff are extremely intimated by my posts. My account was restricted in a way that all my posts and topics gets moderator, but Today i found out that i can't

1. Pm my friends
2. Can't reply on anyone's profile or mine
3. Can't create any thread or posts.

Katie, we have no control over other forums, so please do not keep posting about it.

If you have an issue with how they run their site, take it up with them, dont keep bringing it over here. They are not going to change their minds because you keep going on about it here any more than we would change our policies based on what people post over there.

Move on and discuss the topic.

Thank you.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by Paul M

Katie, we have no control over other forums, so please do not keep posting about it.

If you have an issue with how they run their site, take it up with them, dont keep bringing it over here. They are not going to change their minds because you keep going on about it here any more than we would change our policies based on what people post over there.

Move on and discuss the topic.

Thank you.

Sure, I just added this today because they read my posts here and appear to be intimidated by my comments and took further action without justification today.

I will continue comparing the differences between VB and XF without bring this story up. Vbulletin deserves some positive facts to shine about it. It is been a while now.