Time To Speak Up?

[Corriewf]

Guys...guys....guys.... Think of it this way, if you asked your boss for a raise and he said he would think about it and never got back to you, you would ask him after a while wouldn't you..... Well, that is all we are asking here. No one is saying gimme gimme gimme now! We just want to know what is going on? What are some ideas floating around behind closed doors?

I know that if I was running a site and this happened, I would go through the process with my members to make sure that most felt their needs are met. I am a big actions above words kind of guy and if the staff here truely care about having happy members. they would seek their input right?

That is all it is folks.... No bashing... No finger pointing.... No gimmie gimmie gimmie.... Just communication.

[Gio~Logist]

Originally Posted by Tim Skellett

Well then, I would say I've fulfilled the purpose of the thread by doing some jumping down throats myself.

Haha That "now" was supposed to be a "not".

[Gio~Logist]

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

I hope that the people at the top will see that their attitude, responses and actions filter down through the staff system and down to the members. I hope that the staff will only respond when necessary and with calmess, patience and maturity.. making sure their response leaves a good image of not only themselves but of .org as a whole.

I think this can be accomplished by letting discussions like this occur, only reacting differently than in the past, as wayne stated (but did not show) treating others how you'd like to be treated. I think once the top start embodying the characteristics that they hope us all to have, then we will, for the most part, do the same.

For me its not about what's being worked on as far as hacks and additions to the site, is about having good leadership and fellowship among the staff and coders and members, because if you don't have that then it won't matter what you have here, no one will feel welcomed nor part of the community.

If a member makes a public attack toward a staff member maybe a better response instead of getting defensive would be, "I'm sorry you feel that way, how can I rectify the problem?" or "I'm sorry you understood it that way, I did not mean for it to come across that way, I apologize", "You're right, we could have handled that better. In the future we will try to avoid this again, what can we do now to fix the problem?"

Well said. As for public attacks, i just try to always end it with some humor along with understanding

I understand the purpose of your post, but don't ever post again. You see what i mean, i never fail! Hehe

[Tim Skellett]

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

......If a member makes a public attack toward a staff member maybe a better response instead of getting defensive would be, "I'm sorry you feel that way, how can I rectify the problem?" or "I'm sorry you understood it that way, I did not mean for it to come across that way, I apologize", "You're right, we could have handled that better. In the future we will try to avoid this again, what can we do now to fix the problem?"

I've often seen this theory, but I can't say that I think it's valid. Demanding that staff bend over backwards in the face of what are mere personal attacks is a kind of "Blame the victim" POV that in my experience only leads to more attacks. It's also very unfair indeed; if someone -- anyone, including admin, coders, mere members --- makes unprovoked and unnecessary personal attacks, then they damn well out to be called out for it, IMHO, and as for a response from the victim, I am all for natural justice. The victim is human too and has just as much right to speak their own minds. No-one including staff is meant to be the whipping-boys of anyone having a bad day.

One thing that I have not seen here is routine dismissiveness, arrogance or nastiness from the staff here (I have seen suchlike on other sites), so personally attacking staff here just for the purpose of getting one's rocks off should not be allowed to pass by uncalled-out. Furthermore, making comments on their reactions that could easily be perceived as being patronising and condescending only adds to their frustration --- and to be extremely blunt, however important the coders are, the staff are absolutely vital. So senseless +++++ing and ragging at them only serves to damage this whole site and us all.

I am happy enough to see harsh criticism of wrongful staff and wrongful staff actions, but I don't see that here; just goal-less, direction-less hassling.

[bairy]

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

.....If a member makes a public attack toward a staff member maybe a better response instead of getting defensive would be [snip]

Originally Posted by Tim Skellett

Demanding that staff bend over backwards in the face of what are mere personal attacks is a kind of "Blame the victim" POV that in my experience only leads to more attacks.

I don't see it quite that way.
Yes, personal public attacks are bad, of course, and they shouldn't happen, and it's possible that the attacker will re-read their post later and realise they went over the top.
But if someone is so worked up that they feel it necessary to make such a post then you have to ask why, and you have to try and rectify it. Responding with something like "say something nasty against us again and you'll be banned" is only going to make things worse. Telling people to do as they're damn well told and be happy is not going to help the situation.
One of the roles of admin is to take the crap and try to resolve it, not compound it. By resolving it calmly and neatly, that admin looks good and the original poster will look not so good and may even say "hey you know, I'm sorry I said those things, I was just really upset. And it has the bonus effect of making the admin look accessible and open to suggestion which puts everyone else at ease.

One thing that I have not seen here is routine dismissiveness, arrogance or nastiness from the staff here (I have seen suchlike on other sites)

I'm not a heavy .org surfer and I've seen at least 2 instances of dismissiveness, a few instances of arrogance and even nastiness (provoked perhaps, but read below). As I said earlier, it isn't a case of disgruntled tantrum-based newbies, we're mostly admins here and most know how to construct a proper argument. When it comes to the point where multiple people are removing their hacks and threatening to stop participating on the site - it can't be just kneejerk/tantrum based.

With some of the actions I've seen by admin, I geniunely can see why people get upset.

That's not to say all staff actions are bad, by any means. Sometimes there are pleasant responses, and day-to-day-wise a lot of the behind the scene stuff is very beneficial. I personally think the site is in good shape overall, minus some hack organisation and attitudes of certain people and I think there are a lot of innovative features and the site in it's current site is pretty well built.
But all that doesn't give staff the leeway to be dictator-like.

[Corriewf]

Originally Posted by Tim Skellett

I am happy enough to see harsh criticism of wrongful staff and wrongful staff actions, but I don't see that here; just goal-less, direction-less hassling.

I think you are personally baiting! I want you to quote someone's post that is hassling a staff member. I want you to back up your opinion.

[EasyTarget]

Originally Posted by Tim Skellett

I've often seen this theory, but I can't say that I think it's valid. Demanding that staff bend over backwards in the face of what are mere personal attacks is a kind of "Blame the victim" POV that in my experience only leads to more attacks. It's also very unfair indeed; if someone -- anyone, including admin, coders, mere members --- makes unprovoked and unnecessary personal attacks,....

I don't think I said anything about personal attacks, rather public attacks, and I guess I should clarify so that you don't think I mean unprovoked. What I was trying to describe does not compare to the situation you've painted. In the situation you've put forth, then yes, there's no need to give attention to a user such as that.

I was more going for a situation like what I see happening here now. Many people upset over double standards, mishandling of small situations causing escalation, inablity to be objective, and ego trips by admins/mods. They should be held to a higher standard, that's part of the job. They no longer represent just themselves but a company (to some point) and a community. What I'm trying to describe should be common-sense practice, but apparently has been overlooked because of hurt feelings and bruised egos.

[akanevsky]

I agree with some of the points from both sides, but let me clarify that in detail.

FIRST
Attacks, whether humorous or not, have no place in diplomatic discussions, because naturally, the only thing that may be the outcome is bitterness among staff members and unwillingness to come forth and meet the requests that are being posted. Therefore, I (and others) should not have attacked the staff in the other thread in the first place. I admit that.

SECOND
I certainly do not appreciate the way staff handles tense situations. Just before I say anything else, let me point out that we open complaint threads for a reason, and trust me - regardless of what your impression is, most of us only wish the best for this community. If we did not, we would not even bother making threads and attempting to pressure staff into bringing about positive changes, would we?

When I say one below, I am referring to 
(any)one of those staff members that handle disputes 
around here. One is not intended to be 
personal in any way, and should not be taken as such.

At times too often, we, members, do take an improper tone when creating these threads. One, however, has the advantageous ability to punish (by banning, etc.), and one knows it. Therefore, instead of panicking, deleting posts, throwing out threats, being rude, and thus lowering oneself to the level of the opposing party, one should behave in tense situations as the bigger person - calmly and professionally - which is what is we expect from a solid administrator of a solid site. That would effectively make the other party understand the situation, turn down the heat, prevent one and Jelsoft from looking bad, and, futhermore, create a high probability of the other party apologizing and creating increasingly peaceful posts in the future. One can always ban later on if required, there is no need to yell about it.

On the other hand, if one handles situations as one currently does here at vb.org, one dramatically turns up the heat, effectively making oneself and Jelsoft look bad, and creating a high probability that more increasingly bitter posts will follow. Instead of ensuring peace (which, I suppose, is what one wants), one ensures that just the opposite will be continued. As a result, the probability that members, and among them valuable contributors to the community, will leave the site without ever being banned by one, thus eventually harming the community as a whole, and, most importantly, the company that owns this community. One says something about "behaving the way you want others to behave"? Well, Wayne, nothing personal, but... since you are the one who said that one should behave as one wants others to, why don't you (and every other member of the staff), instead of deleting posts, throwing out threats, being rude, and otherwise showing bad example, please take on the initative of doing otherwise?

[Mark.B]

Please everyone can all this arguing be stopped?

It keeps going on and on, thread after thread. Things are never going to be perfect on a site like this, all of us are admins in our own right and we of all people should really know this.

New licence holders coming here now, I despair for what they see and what they think of it.

I have great sympathy for both sides' points of view, but as things are, it isn't ever going to get resolved to mutual satisfaction. I would urge those who can do so to try and compromise, accept flaws in the other side, and carry on with the site. (That's coders AND staff). I would also urge anyone who doesn't feel able to do so, to back away from the site gracefully, sad as that will be.

As a vB user I greatly appreciate the efforts of ALL - staff and coders alike - please do not let this "war" carry on any longer.

For most this is a hobby. Take an honest look at yourselves, and if it seems that it's got a bit more serious than a hobby and it's all a bit much, please step back for a bit.

I come to this site for modifications and modification discussion. All there is the last month or so is all out war. Those involved may not realise how unseemly it looks.

[EasyTarget]

the arguing has seemed to simmer down imo.. appears to be more an open dialog. I hope it continues so there's an actual resolution instead of sweeping the issues under the rug.