Angry .Orgers

[Lizard King]

Originally Posted by Brad

vBseo was allowed at first because the author was seeking beta testers. We didn't see a problem with him seeking testers via the forum. Once the modification was up for sale he said there would be a lite version, the thread was left for discussion while he prepaired the modification for release.

Needless to say it took him longer then expected. The thread has been deleted now, but he will be allowed to post his lite version when/if it's finished.

If paid modifications cannot advertise here then why did you let him to do. As everybody else he supposed to find the testers from somewhere else because vb.org doesn't support paid hacks. If you still have the thread i mean if it is soft deleted please check it out. It was not even for testers in my point of view he just wanted to advertise his product and he did by first looking for beta testers then releasing story of lite version and it took nearly 4 months for all this. Everybody else found their testers so why they didn't. Anyway that is another subject.

I still believe Jellsoft must prepare a database for paid hacks. That will increase their sale also and it is a customer need.

For the orgers the problem start because noone reads the instructions . After the installation when they face with a problem they start +++++ing to the mod writer which they have no write to do. If someone is complaing or +++++ing to the mod writer they must receive serious warnings and maybe nopost for couple of days. Otherwise i beleive in coming future there will be only a few mod writer left at vb.org.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Lizard King

If paid modifications cannot advertise here then why did you let him to do. As everybody else he supposed to find the testers from somewhere else because vb.org doesn't support paid hacks. If you still have the thread i mean if it is soft deleted please check it out. It was not even for testers in my point of view he just wanted to advertise his product and he did by first looking for beta testers then releasing story of lite version and it took nearly 4 months for all this. Everybody else found their testers so why they didn't. Anyway that is another subject.

The first post of the thread had been edited, did you see it when it was first posted? When the thread began he was asking for beta testers from the community, we allowed it.

I agree it took us to long to take action after the thread outlived it usefulness, but it has been taken care of now for the reasons stated in my last post.

[AN-net]

i think a bug tracker would be a great way to bog down on ass comments in release threads and keep hacks more organized and stop bugs from being reported over and over again. this is just my 2 cents but we are getting off topic.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Originally Posted by Brad

The first post of the thread had been edited, did you see it when it was first posted? When the thread began he was asking for beta testers from the community, we allowed it.

I agree it took us to long to take action after the thread outlived it usefulness, but it has been taken care of now for the reasons stated in my last post.

We even took more action then Brad is showing here, and i can know, cause i handled the vBSeo case when it was first posted.

Within a day (probably even hours) after the first post about VBSeo was made, the author already received a PM asking if he was planning to release a version here at vb.org. In the months that followed the same question have been asked him a few times, and each time he could convince us that a (free) Lite version will be released here. That is the only reason the post about VBSeo lasted longer then a day.

AFAIK it is still in his intention to release that free version, although we still have to iron out some problems with our rules (part of the code is encrypted).

Bottom line, it is not handled any different then other threads posted about (semi) commercial hacks.

[KW802]

Originally Posted by Colin F

See this (vB.com):


While I assume that a bigger part 'morph it visually', there are still a ton of forums that run the default style, simply replacing the logo or possibly adjusting colors.

That 90% is exactly who my targetted customer base would be and is why, at least personally, I would have no problem paying a small fee to be able to advertise to them directly.

Originally Posted by AN-net

brings me too an issue of some network authorization connection with jelsoft for third parties.

Unfortunately when it comes to products like styles they are easily ripped from the demo forums themselves. A 3rd party authorization system would work for some of commercial scripts but not styles.

[AN-net]

Originally Posted by KW802

Unfortunately when it comes to products like styles they are easily ripped from the demo forums themselves. A 3rd party authorization system would work for some of commercial scripts but not styles.

very true but i think jelsoft should give a helping hand out to professional developers who want protection of their software as does jelsoft.

[davidw]

2 things I have noticed in the past two months of a new subscriber to vbulletin is that 1) some users get upset, 2) some coders get upset. Just because a person is a coder doesn't mean they are better than anyone else. They are human too, and at the same time, some get upset at the users. Is this their fault? Yes and No. Is it the consumers fault? Yes and No. Allow me to explain.

I've used/coded PHP for about three years, but by the same token for every year I've used PHP, I've had 4 years of experience fixing computers for customers. One thing I have noticed is that just because you own a computer doesn't make you an expert on it. When you explain to the customer what is wrong with their system you have to explain to them on a level that they can understand - otherwise, they won't. Just because you've bought a license to vbulletin doesn't mean it makes you an expert on it, especially overnight. What I have seen in here is that while most instructions are crystal clear, some are downright greek to me. Until after 3-4 hours of "guessing" and playing around with it do I figure out what they are saying.

What does this mean? Possibly that coders need to create a "level" for their consumers. For easy hacks "easy." For medium hacks, "medium." - I hope you can see where this is going. The way the hacks are currently, no one knows the level of frustration they will see until after they download and install it, unless there is some disclaimer on there that says "if you don't know php, don't bother." I can write php all day long, but does that make me an expert on vbulletin, NO, especially since I just bought the software 2 months ago. If some coders (keyword being some since most coders are good about explanations) would treat customers like they really don't know how to install it, instead of trying to teach a class of 3rd-graders algebra, then this would help a lot of unhappy consumers. In fact, a lot of frustration would dissolve if they knew how to install the hacks they desire.

As for clicking install? Unless I am 100% certain a hack will work, I do NOT click install until I KNOW it has successfully installed and it serves my purpose. I started, originally clicking install, just to click uninstall later because eithe 1) it did NOT work, or 2) it was waste of time and energy because it didn't do as I had imagined it would. I am human, and I have needs, wants, desires, just like anyone else when it comes to how I want my forum to run and what is on the forum.

As for the original intent of this thread (getting back on topic), there will be coders out there who want to be compensated for their time and efforts, which is somewhat understandable (if you code, then you know what I mean). However, a lot of consumers don't understand that. I know a handful of coders are in it for the money, as I'm not stupid and I do read a LOT of threads. I like vbulltin.org, mainly because I have found it to be a good community with people helping people without a fee associated with it. I would have started using vbulletin in Aug/Sept 2004, if I could have afforded it - it took a year of scraping the money together, with a couple of donations in order for me to even have enough money to be close enough to purchase the initial license. My site is only alive because of donations and from money I get from work. While it wouldn't bother me too much if there were coders in here that had hacks for sale - as long as there was a fine line distinguishing between which is free and which is for-a-fee, I am on here as much as I am because it IS free. I don't want to see - hey, that looks good, just to find it has a $99.95 price tag associated with it. I am by no means rich (filed for bankruptcy 3 years ago) and am struggling on a day to day basis to afford food for my family of 4 and clothes on their back (hopefully soon that will change). Things were better at one time, but being $1400 behind on bills at the moment doesn't give me the green light to buy anything I don't need (keyword-need). Is there any reason why another forum (site) could be used - such as http://www.vbulletin.net sharing the same database as .org with the intent pupose of hacks for sale? or something to the like? Just like a McDLT (if they still make those anymore lol - keep the cool side cool and the hot side hot) - keep the free hacks one place and the pay-for hacks another.

Originally Posted by amykhar

Another minority of users is very vocal, unfortunately. And it is them that are causing the problems. They don't read before they try to install. When they run into problems, they scream that the code doesn't work. They never admit to the fact that they messed things up. They install more than one mod at a time - badly - and end up with errors that they don't know the cause of. They post new threads for their questions instead of posting in the mod thread. They don't read the support thread to see if their question has been answered before posting.

I've seen a lot of this happening, and a lot of coders griping at consumers for their problems - and believe it or not, some consumers will never understand how to do things - but a lot of this stems from the misunderstanding that the coder believes the consumer knows what they know and treats them accordingly. (Not referring to you Amy, you do a good job). On the flip side, I can read some things all day long, and reread and reread and not make a difference because I won't understand unless I do the work and then run into the problem - which some coders assumed that I didn't follow their instructions - which was NOT the case. I've run into problems that no one had the answer to, nor would anyone help me with the problem - so I uninstall the hack - big deal - I got over it. However, I don't like it when a coder assumes I am doing something wrong (I usually admit to my mistakes) and won't help because of that higher-than-thou assumption over me - then make me feel like I'm 2 inches tall because my results differ.

Note to coders: Not all code plays together nicely. I have found two hacks that when one is used, the other will not work possibly because both are going for the same hook. When I uninstalled the former, the latter worked. Will the coder know about this? Not unless someone says something about it in regards to the issue. Not everyone's installation is going to work as advertised. Just because it works on your test machine doesn't mean the consumer will have the same result. Yes sometimes consumers mess up on a hack, but other times hacks don't play well. Does that mean that the consumer did something wrong? Not necessarily. Should the consumer be treated like 2 inches tall because of it? No. This attitude can reflect on consumers just as well as a consumer's complaint can affect the attitude of the coder - it works both ways. Treat each other with respect, especially when there's a problem and most people will be happy.

Originally Posted by amykhar

We need a way to civilize that very vocal minority and let them know that if they want to participate here, they are going to have to act like adults and not 12 year olds who forgot their morning Ritalin.

Probably the only thing I will speak against is this. Some of us are not "normal." I am a 30 year old with Asperger's Syndrome with ADHD. For those who don't know what that it is, here is a link to it. I don't speak for all those referred to in this quote, however, I do have problems. I hope my conduct in here isn't as bad as that though. lol

[Wayne Luke]

Originally Posted by eXtremeTim

No what im saying is this is supposed to be the ultimate vbulletin resource. If I were to advertise here I would have to raise the price to offset the fee I have to pay. Which isnt fair to the user I said.

Unfortunately, this is the real world. Sounds harsh but that is the way it is. If Jelsoft allows you to advertise and build your own business/hobby/whatever at our expense, we would eventually have to raise prices on our products and services to compensate as well.

You have other expenses you have to compensate for such as credit card processing, paypal fees, bank transfer fees, running your own website. All of these are included in your pricing. The cost of advertising would be another such cost. You could choose to absorb it and hope for additional sales to offset the cost or increase your prices. Many different ways to handle it.

I am surprise people haven't looked at another method here....

Free Addons and Extensions but the customer pays for support. Support is by far the most lucrative aspect of computer programming in the world. IBM's support division outsells their hardware and software divisions by 10 to 1. It derives 85% of the companies yearly profits. Big money to be made in support. Many open source companies such as MySQL AB derive 100% of their income from support contracts and licenses.

[Wayne Luke]

Originally Posted by KW802

Unfortunately when it comes to products like styles they are easily ripped from the demo forums themselves. A 3rd party authorization system would work for some of commercial scripts but not styles.

Then why have demo forums? Never understood why you would just throw all your commercial graphics and code out there to the wind. Why not do something like Template Monster does and show screenshots with watermarking and not the actual code. People will get the idea. Of course demo styles are easy but they lead to lost sales.

[KW802]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

Then why have demo forums? Never understood why you would just throw all your commercial graphics and code out there to the wind. Why not do something like Template Monster does and show screenshots with watermarking and not the actual code. People will get the idea. Of course demo styles are easy but they lead to lost sales.

I've thought going that route previously but when I bounced the idea off a few people most of them responded with that they'd like to see how the style actually looks up & running before purchasing. I'm thinking of taking a slightly different route now. :ermm: