Angry .Orgers

[eXtremeTim]

Originally Posted by Brad

We have threads in there dating back to early 2001, so if something had been posted it would still be there. We keep records of everything we delete incase a situation like this comes up.

Perhaps you posted it on vBulletin.com?

Interesting. Oh well.

Im not really wanting to rehash this anyway. I was just saying I have seen it done to other hacks.


This convo is supposed to be about paid hacks.

[Chris M]

Originally Posted by eXtremeTim

Interesting. Oh well.

Im not really wanting to rehash this anyway. I was just saying I have seen it done to other hacks.


This convo is supposed to be about paid hacks.

You are the one that brought that particular element of the paid hack conversation up, if memory serves

Chris

[noppid]

: popcorn :

[eXtremeTim]

Originally Posted by Chris M

You are the one that brought that particular element of the paid hack conversation up, if memory serves

Chris

I said we cant even talk about them somebody else mention a few hacks and I commented on a staff comment.

[vBSEO]

Hello everyone,

This has certainly become a very engaging discussion. With that said, the Crawlability team has been reviewing and discussing this thread, and I would like to offer some insights into our vision for a potential solution.

vBulletin.org - The Definitive Portal for Everything vB
We believe that there should definitely be a place for both FOC and commercial hacks here. Although some have suggested that a better approach would be to use an alternative forum, vbulletin.org really is the #1 resource for information on vBulletin, and we think it should remain a centralized portal for all development projects.

Resources, Support & Learning Environment
The goal for vb.org should be to make as many resources available to vB users as possible all in one centralized location (free or paid), to foster an environment of learning & mentor driven support, and to encourage developers of FOC and premium hacks to continue publishing and supporting their works here. It IS possible to achieve all of this, but it may well take a modification of the forum business model that is used here.

Having FOC and commercial hacks co-existing here does not mean that vb.org will no longer be an environment for learning. In fact, it will just further serve to solidify vbulletin.org's position as the leading resource for research, development, and discussion of vB.

Jelsoft Encourages 3rd Party Development
Premium styles and hacks are of great benefit to the vb.org community and to Jelsoft. The existence of such great products, in addition to the FOC alternatives, helps to re-inforce Jelsoft's leading forum position with vBulletin. The recently released developer API for 3.5.x shows that Jelsoft recognizes this value and is committed to supporting 3rd party development. This makes right now, the perfect time to revise vb.org's policies in order to create a home for the many great commercial styles and hacks that are available - for the benefit of all.

Commercial Necessity for Premium Hacks
Obviously the commercial aspect is a huge stumbling block with a wide divide in user opinion as expressed here and in previous threads on the topic. However, without a doubt, for top quality vB add ons to be developed, a commercial aspect is an absolute necessity.

The Need for Premium Hacks
If the statistic is accurate that 90-95% of all vBulletin users do not modify their installations, then one could argue that it shows an even greater need for premium hacks to be showcased here. These predominantly non-technical users will generally not be well suited to attempting to install FOC hacks with limited to no support (depending on the availability of the developer and others who help out in the release forum):

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....&postcount=120


Time is Scarce - Developer's are Limited to 168 Hours a Week
For starters, we commend the many developers who provide FOC hacks, support, and information sharing within the threads here. Their part-time commitment is extraordinary given that they (in most cases) also have to schedule time for their careers, families, & sleep within the 168 hours we all have available each week.

Alternative Compensation Models
Even without having a designated commercial forum or directory provided here, there are ways for commercial developers to be compensated for their work.

As Wayne Luke suggested, we also agree that a developer is and should be entitled to charge for support. Serious forum admins who see the benefit of installing a particular hack understand the value of the developer's time and will pay an appropriate fee for installation and/or support services, etc.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....2&postcount=37
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....2&postcount=43
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....&postcount=120


The Value of Development & Consulting
Those of you who are professional analysts, programmers, and consultants, etc. are aware of the high value of your services with systems integration and development firms typically billing out at an hourly rate of in excess of $100/hr. Hanif touches nicely on the subject in this thread.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....3&postcount=50


In fact, some consultants (part-time or otherwise) have successfully leveraged their expert knowledge of vB and hack installation to make their services available to other non-technical forum admins. So they can generate revenue even without developing their own hacks, provided that they are regarded as experienced developers within the vb.org community.

Software Projects - The Difficulty Involved
We believe that there is a critical mass for all large projects in which maintaining and supporting them becomes almost impossible without implementing a fee structure.

Various contributing developers here may choose to help with support of a particular FOC hack; however, those of you familiar with software development know that managing any software project is extremely difficult throughout the various stages of the dev cycle including inception, requirements management, design, development, testing, documentation, maintenance, & support, etc. This has to be accounted for, hence the necessity of charging for premium hacks.

Buy vs. Build Decisions
Detomah touches briefly on the issue of buy vs. build:
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....2&postcount=19

Ultimately regardless of whether going commercial is a popular choice among the community or not, everyone has 2 choices: (a) buy it, or (b) build it. In reality, there is a 3rd choice: (c) don't use it.

Evaluation Criteria
Whether you select option (a), (b), or (c) depends on a number of factors, not limited to:

• Are you aware of all solutions that can help you achieve your need or desire?
• Can you build it yourself? What is the cost/time/difficulty involved?
• Can you get someone to build it for free? Will they support it? What is the cost of support?
• Do you absolutely need it? Will it help to grow your forum, or increase your revenue? Will you see an ROI? Could you live without it?
• Are there any risks associated with proceeding? Do you have a mitigation strategy or contingency plan?
• Will it improve your forum significantly or are you purely motivated by desire or entertainment value? If so, (once again) can you live without it?
• Are you missing out on a great opportunity by not obtaining the solution for your forum?

Evaluate each offering with the above criteria along with your own and you should be able to make an informed decision about how to proceed. But, you need to be aware of all solutions available to you (including commercial) in order to make an informed evaluation and decision.

Our Experience
We do not take any of the criticism we have received personally. Within any community there is diversity of thought. We take the negative with a grain of salt, just as we do our positive feedback. Just as Erwin noted, we can at least try our best to keep the discussions civil. In our particular instance, we believe we were handled fairly:

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....9&postcount=83

Suggestion on Alternative Compensation Models
While vb.org will not likely provide free commercial listings, any commercial hack developer should expect and be willing to pay any advertising costs associated with promoting a product here at vb.org. Hopefully, the cost will be set at a level that does not prevent the developer from seeing an ROI.

Existing Business Models for Commercial Developers
There are various alternatives within the existing framework for commercial developers. The most obvious is leveraging exposure from FOC hacks they develop in order to get some exposure for their own fourms where they have a chance to generate revenue from donations, sales of their products/services, joint venture promotion or affiliate programs, and/or AdSense, etc. Most of the premium developers here are well aware of this and do so. It is well within the site rules and noone complains. So, we commercial developers are not completely without a presense here provided that we give something back to the community such as free hacks or posting support and/or other resources within the various threads.

What are some Potential Alternatives for Commercial Promotion at vb.org?

• Paid hack release threads
• Paid directory listings
• Google AdSense (allowing commercial developers to advertise here via a 3rd party - i.e. Google)
• Google AdSense (ad earning sharing)

Note: DigitalPoint has a very interesting method of compensating members who have AdSense accounts by providing them with a % of AdSense revenue for the threads in which they participate. This could be used as a good incentive for free hack developers to continue publishing and supporting their work here. But, obviously, it requires vb.org to start running AdSense, which may very well be a non-negotiable issue for the vb.org moderating team.

Encourage Free Hack Development with Monthly Cash Prizes for Top Hacks/Top Support
It is amazing what someone will do when they feel appreciated. If vB.org were to develop a small revenue channel from paid commercial listings, AdSense, donations, etc, such a contest could be facilitated.

It encourages better development and support as developers strive to achieve the recognition. It also compensates those (in a small way) who produce the best FOC hacks and/or support each month. The model already works exceptionally well in other mediums. Consider the following:

Google Code Jam 2005
http://www.topcoder.com/pl/?&module=...05&d2=overview

The X Prize
http://www.xprizefoundation.com/

Other Ideas?
Hopefully, if nothing else, we helped to get your creative juices running. If there is another alternative available, please post it to the discussion so that we can find a mutually satisfactory solution for everyone.

Your Feedback
Thank-you to everyone for providing feedback representative of both sides, including The Geek for starting a great discussion. And thank-you all for giving us a platform to share our insights into this issue. I hope that the vb.org moderators are able to use this feedback to find a mutually beneficial solution for everyone.

[plubius]

Originally Posted by AN-net

the community has recently gotten very violent. i feel the community is becoming overcrowded with +++++++s. anyone see that new store i think its "Ultimate Shop", that poor guy is being flogged by +++++++s who do not appreciate his time in trying to create a store but instead yell at him calling his hack pitiful. they continue to insult UShop. i really see why some have gone commercial, this community is slowly becoming full of +++++++s who say give me give me but if it doesnt satisfy them 100% they have a right to piss all over it. they seem to think "oh i paid for vbulletin, so if a free hack doesn't satisfy me i will scream and yell as though i paid for it." actually even this has carried over to the .com, people screaming and yelling at devs. critizing them with snide remarks and +++++++ comments. what i really feel like saying to these +++++++s is "++++ off you little greedy +++++, go to phpbb if you want something for free."

I am desperately trying to figure this issue out. I will ignore the above hate filled post for a sec.

The coders here are few, so I would like to address them as a singular body for the purposes of what I have to say. Coder, do you remember when you released your first FOC hack? Why did you do it? For the overall good of fellow VBers, for recognition, for an avenue to a later commercial product? Well, other than the last did you realise your goal?

As Steve Machol said most of us non-coders rarely modify our boards. The board costs a lot of money and comes really nice out of the box. When we use a hack we want it to do exactly what it says. Again, we are not coders, kudos to those that are, even more kudos to those who provide easy to understand installation instructions. When I can afford it I sometimes give them donations. Some months with all of my bills I only eat ramen and drink cheap Walmart cola. That is why the above post reminds me of why I left phpBB: the arrogant, rude and self important snits. I rarely seek support for hacks, I do not badger the hackers. I do think that obsolete or abandoned hacks should be removed to keep some newbie board owner from making a mess of their board.

From what I have seen most of the coders here have no problem releasing and supporting hacks FOC, it is the loud assed minority here who are raising the stink. VB.org allows coders to provide board owners FOC and it should stay that way. Were it to ever change, I am one of the many orgers that will just go quietly away.

[vBintense]

You know another down side to allowing people to profit off of this community is you are in a sense taking away from those who do offer FOC code.

As it stands this is a community based on sharing. Charging is not sharing it is to better ones pocket book.

Why would any FOC coder even bother to help a community where those who prosper are not the ones contributing free?

What makes .org so useful and so popular is the free work that is posted on it, so those who charge would be benefiting off those who share freely. I know myself if such an action comes to be I would not release anything.

[FASherman]

Here's my two cents...

A developer releases a kill hack here. Many people install it and it becomes instrumental to their sites. They request feature after feature. It becomes a kill hack, but the guy who released it now spends 20 hours or more a week maintaining his releases.

There is NOTHING WRONG with him deciding that the amount of time his code now requires means it has to be pay-for-use. He's not a bad guy at all, nor is he any more greedy than the people who have been using his code for free but demaned long hours from him for no compensation. It is a natural evolution.

There is nothing wrong with someone who makes personal decision that his releases will all be free. When his killer app takes off, he makes the opposite decision. The code is "as is" and he can no longer support it. (See Inferno RSS Feed hack for an example).

For the end user, it can be a bust either way. We can becoem dependent on a hack that never matures because it becomes a support nightmare. Or we can pay for code that ends up being short lived. Its crap shoot. If you don't like either choice, buy a PHP book and roll your own.

In the specific case of TheGeek, his stuff is quality. I have no problem paying for it in the hopes it will continue to be.

As for VB.Org and commercial software, I really wish that either VB.Org or VB.Com would maintain a list of VB integrated software and add-ons. More than that, allow us to review them and rate them. I want to know what works with VB and what doesn't. I want to know which ones are good and which ones aren't.

I don't see an information source as advertising. I see it as yet another service this site could provide.

[immortal21]

Commercial products == you get what you pay for.
Free products == you get what you download.

You have to pay microsoft when you buy windows os.
You have to pay software companies when you buy software.
It's a continous chain event.

Now I know that people crack software and release it for the public to download for free and that's the software vendor's fault. I remember one application which took over a year to crack but i can't remember what it was.

As for my product it is encoded with Ioncube with a backup license system.
IonCube has never and in my opinion won't be cracked for a long long time.
Heck, the white house uses it.

As far as I see things in difference between free and commercial, is support, updates, and size. Yes size is a huge difference, my addon filesize is larger than vbulletin and vbadvanced put togeather, it's huge.

This was to a post from page 9 or 10 can't remember but oh well.

Oh and vBSEO, very well put, my thoughts exactly.

FASherman also very well put.
I can see .org growing beyond what their eyes can see, and that's not an attack or anything personal, but can't you see the potential?

[eXtremeTim]

Originally Posted by plubius

I am desperately trying to figure this issue out. I will ignore the above hate filled post for a sec.

The coders here are few, so I would like to address them as a singular body for the purposes of what I have to say. Coder, do you remember when you released your first FOC hack? Why did you do it? For the overall good of fellow VBers, for recognition, for an avenue to a later commercial product? Well, other than the last did you realise your goal?

As Steve Machol said most of us non-coders rarely modify our boards. The board costs a lot of money and comes really nice out of the box. When we use a hack we want it to do exactly what it says. Again, we are not coders, kudos to those that are, even more kudos to those who provide easy to understand installation instructions. When I can afford it I sometimes give them donations. Some months with all of my bills I only eat ramen and drink cheap Walmart cola. That is why the above post reminds me of why I left phpBB: the arrogant, rude and self important snits. I rarely seek support for hacks, I do not badger the hackers. I do think that obsolete or abandoned hacks should be removed to keep some newbie board owner from making a mess of their board.

From what I have seen most of the coders here have no problem releasing and supporting hacks FOC, it is the loud assed minority here who are raising the stink. VB.org allows coders to provide board owners FOC and it should stay that way. Were it to ever change, I am one of the many orgers that will just go quietly away.

Okay its people like you that are pissing me off here. You call us the minority when we were the ones who helped form this site. We work hard on our work. We are stepping things up to another level. We are no longer just able to spent the time on the stuff as we used to. We are making professional grade things and making things that some proble never expected to see. In my case im bringing some very high end commercial products that will be bigger then vbulletin itself.

You think that just becuase you dont badger us that means everybody else doesnt. vb.org is growing the community is changing. It is getting harder then ever to support hacks becuase there is more of a demand. We have more people that dont know what there doing that can break even some of the most simple things at time and we work to help them yet it eats at more and more of our time. Without being able to released our paid mods here our foc ones may cease to exist as time goes on.

I have said this many times. By releasing my paid mods and selling them it helps to support my foc ones. Since im not stuck spending as much time doing custom project developement.

Originally Posted by immortal21

Commercial products == you get what you pay for.
Free products == you get what you download.

You have to pay microsoft when you buy windows os.
You have to pay software companies when you buy software.
It's a continous chain event.

Now I know that people crack software and release it for the public to download for free and that's the software vendor's fault. I remember one application which took over a year to crack but i can't remember what it was.

As for my product it is encoded with Ioncube with a backup license system.
IonCube has never and in my opinion won't be cracked for a long long time.
Heck, the white house uses it.

As far as I see things in difference between free and commercial, is support, updates, and size. Yes size is a huge difference, my addon filesize is larger than vbulletin and vbadvanced put togeather, it's huge.

This was to a post from page 9 or 10 can't remember but oh well.

Oh and vBSEO, very well put, my thoughts exactly.

FASherman also very well put.
I can see .org growing beyond what their eyes can see, and that's not an attack or anything personal, but can't you see the potential?

I agree with you somewhat. I dont feel that the full thing should be encoded. Doing that destroys the development community. Becuase huge addons always have alot of room to have their own addons.

I know my very huge commercial things will be most unencoded but will have some of the core stuff that will be needed for it to work that wont ever need to be changed by hackers encoded with liscense check systems and a few other things.

That way they cant simple just remove the encoded part becuase it will kill the system. Im planning a pretty high tech security system for my products.

Reason im investing all this time to have my stuff so that it can be modified is becuase of the fact that my modifications will be so big they will have addons and possible even addons for the addons.