Angry .Orgers
 

Haven't been about as much lately since the whole "you are evil because you are going commercial" threads kicked off a few months ago.

I popped in today and was browsing about appalled to see the same mentality and anger toward people who decide that their time and investment should be met with something equal from the people who benefit from it.

In other words - a lot of angry .orgers with a mob mentality toward anything remotely commercial (although ironic that vB isn't lumped into this).

What is up? Sure, OK, .orgers rules: hear no commercial, see no commercial, speak no commercial - however I think its ridiculous to get all agro because someone who released something free then decides that its not worth his time continuing the process unless he gets something out of it. The funniest thing is that most agro/bullying in these situations come from people who do not contribute to .org, they are just users.

Please guys, not everyone can be devoted to code the hours of a part time job for you for free. Cut some people some slack otherwise you are going to have less and less talent here and more and more unfinished or half assed projects. It is true on many levels that you generally get what you pay for ;)

On a similar note, it was discussed at some length ways to provide avenues for commercial and free scripts here. I'm not wanting to stir that up again - however this was awhile ago. Any further progress? I guess your priority is to upgrade to 3.5X first.

Really odd to see the 'ultimate (but only if its free) resource for vB' be on an outdated version. Kind of like going to a MS convention watching them demo on Windows 98 boxes (what kind of message does that send customers!) ;)

Anyhooo - cant we all get along. There is a hell of a lot more in the world to get uptight about than 'hey, this guy was secretly planning on holding the world to ransom when his script came out of beta! He OWES US a final!' - many times people dont plan things that way - life somtimes just changes things. :)

(let the flames begin :tired: )

I don't agree, but to each his own. ;)

If we allow commercial hacks to take over, there won't be very many free ones anymore and the spirit that this site was founded on, will diminish. Once coders see others making a profit, they will decide they can too, then the free hack days will be over.

As far as time and invetsment goes, there have been a lot of great coders here that have mnade extensive hacks in the past that never gave a second thought about trying to making a buck out of it. They shared and learned here for free and felt like giving something back to the community. ;)

Just my 3 1/2 cents worth. ;)

Well, I dont want to get into the debate over org should allow paid scripts or not since thats about as volatile as Tastes Great vs. Less Filling (and about as easy to resolve). However I will say that I think giving commercial coders a voice will actually bring more quality products to vB. You can only take free ones so far. Just like you could only do something for charity for x hours per week (even if you loved it) you still need to eat!

I also have to say that while some people learn some of their skill coding here - most do not and regardless - they are the ones that learned it. The old 'you owe us because you learned it here' is a messed up :)

And yes, I was one of those that spent a year producing gargantuan macks FOC because I enjoyed it - however life moves on and I had to as well (either go commercial or dont produce anymore at all). It was a hard choice - however one I am glad I made now. No, I dont think ill be buying a new mousemat anytime soon however at least those that are my customers appreciate my time as I do theirs.

Thanks :)

True, but appreciation doesn't need to have dollar signs attached to it to mean something. ;)

You are right - then maybe vB should be released on .org for free ;)

Boofo - You do what you do here for FOC (I assume). That benefits the community. However clearly you can not do this full time as you have real life commitments. Moderating here full time at no charge would mean that you would live in a Sony 36" television box next to I-80. I do what I can do FOC for here and that benefits the community. However for me to be able to do MORE then what I do now (and what I have done in the past) means something else must give and that something else is users paying for work that I otherwise would not have been able to produce FOC.

Anyhooo. This is quickly dwindling down the abyss of 'Good guys = hobbyist while bad guys = professionals' which is what I wanted to avoid. The ironic and altruistic idealogy gives me tummy ache.

What I was trying to say is that some Angry .orgers should chill a bit because its hurting The Ultimate Resource for vB.

Thanks ;)

As a matter of fact, I do moderate here and code almost fill-time now as my real life committments are at a stand-still at present and I don't live in a Sony Box anymore as I have moved up to a Westinghouse Refrigerator box with a lot more room. :p

As far as any angry vb.orgers goes, that won't go away anytime soon, I'm afraid. The issue or making money on hacks on the org is a touchy and sore subject for a lot of people, as we have both seen. There are a lot of coders out there making money from paid hacks that don't use the org to advertise or peddle their wares. I think that is the real issue in all of this. Not so much the paid hacks as using the org to get buyers for them. There has been a few bait and hook schemes going on as of late and it seems to be winding down now, which is good. Maybe now we can get back to the way things used to be and start having fun and learning and sharing again. ;)

Yea, fair enough. It is a touchy subject on both sides and while I disagree with some of the rules regarding commercial scripts here, I understand and respect the decision. I guess I just feel the need to stand up for people who are suddenly deemed to be evil because they need to actually make something from the work they do. I hate mob mentalities and empathy loss no matter where I see it.

Congrats on the move. Ive been eyeing that model for some time now! :)

As long as debates are around, you'll always have some sort of mob mentality, it can't be avoided. That's what makes debating so interesting, I guess. ;)

And thanks on the congrats. My job here at the org has allowed me to move up in my living conditions. See? There are perks for being on the Staff here. ;)

I said this previously elsewhere - The code for vB has grown up, it would be nice if the community here did as well.

I think we are all taking this way to heavily. If a coder decides to offer hacks, wheather it's commercial or not, it is still benefiting vBulletin as a software. vB.org, however, is not the place to distribute commercial modifications; it's that simple. I don't know why this is causing so much debate. If you don't feel like a hack should cost money, then the only option is to code an equal or better modification for free.

The Geek, you are an excellant coder and I appreciate your work on vbulletin. I've used a couple of your paid modifications, and they are great tools.

The Geek should not be judged for making a decision on his code. If he feels like he should be earning money for his hard work, that's his choice.


That's just my personal opinion. :)

damn, vbulletin.biz is taken otherwise The Geek would hav a new venture... :)

Thanks Danny,

I didnt mean for this to be about me. I just got a little pissed off when I saw a bunch of users demanding that an author (cant even remember who it was) release his hack FOC. Apparently he decided to charge for it after a lot of development. Then I was catching up on the vbseo thread (say no more!). Then I read some other thread when I just thought 'geez, there are a lot of people around here that expect a lot of work from a lot of people without having to lift a finger.'.

Now, In all fairness, I did not read every post of the first 2 threads so maybe I got a little bothered over nothing... however in my experience around here I think I most likely got the right gist of it.

Though I dont agree that .org should have no mention of anything commercial, its not my site and I support the rules and guidelines. However you have to agree that its a bit of a stretch to call this the ultimate vb resource when it excludes everything except the hobbyist and casual coder. I think its more of a hinderence to Jelsoft to not be able to refer any professionals that buy their product to anywhere except for here. I dont mean any disrespect (ive got loads of stuff here) its just that it can be somewhat of a muddle for people to get exactly what their after and always trust what they are getting. But I degress! Those are just my personal thoughts and not really too relevant to my point.

I just wanted to say 'hey guys, be a little more respectful of those giving their time for nothing and support them in their decisions if they cant continue doing it for the smile it puts on your face'. I for one wish I could continue putting my stuff up for free as I miss the buzz. Heck, I had even asked Erwin at one stage if I could put GARS up here FOC with a preference that support requests were handled on my site because its a nightmare supporting large mods here. Because that goes against rules - I got a big ol No. However now Im actualy quite pleased that it wasnt Ok'ed. I think I would have given up on it with the current 'something for nothing and your chicks for free' mentality.

whew. Think Im over the babbling. I think my points been lost! Anyhooo - just respect the coders!

Thanks all!

The Geek has not been judged at all in this thread. In fact, he is the one that started it. ;)

I know, but some people had issues in other threads..

Which have nothing to do with this thread. ;)

The issues dealt with commercial hacks which ties in this thread. I don't want to start a silly argument with you Boofo. :D

But The Geek stated he didn't mean for this thread to be about him, so you win this time. ;)

I know this is a very touchy subject and quite a few people get riled up ... on both sides of the issue. I'd just like to say that most people I know who charge fees for premium styles or hacks *also* contribute or have contributed a very high volume of free advice and support assistance to others here and in other support forums. So they're not ALL evil... lol. And when they charge a small price for us to use an elaborate modification they developed, then I don't mind paying something for all that time and work. I just get real selective about what I'm willing to pay for. When you total up all the expenses it takes to create and sustain the sort of websites we like to have, it adds up to quite a whopping investment.

Even so, there is one thing that bothers me a great deal. And that's when new coders come along ... learn everything they can from very generous people who've shared their knowledge and expertise with others -- for free -- ... but then they won't give anything back to this community unless they can make money from it. That's just not right and that really hurts everyone. Whenever someone benefits directly from experienced volunteers, they really ought to repay that generousity, in kind. Not to the people they learned from, though... but by continuing the cycle and helping to train/develop a new "generation" of coders who are starting out the exact same way.

And those are the bad apples that have spoiled it for people like The Geek. ;)

I have a really simple idiology about programming.

If I need a program or piece of code for my site that is beyond my own skill level and someone can provide it, i'll use it. If it's good enough and suits my needs well enough, i'll pay for it.

When I have a bit of code that i've done, I throw it into the community in a hope that someone else can make use of it, my coding aint great but it gets me by and sometimes it's the basic stuff that catches other people out too, so giving my little snippets where I can is my way of returning the favour.

The problem I have, is that I find that when it comes to spending my valuble time helping others in any way I can for free, when it comes to me asking for a bit of help from anyone else for something i've got stuck with, most people simply ignore the request like it is some serious disease, or they damand cash.

Like you would have a chance of winning one. ;)

Naturally. That's the way it is supposed to be. ;)

boofo is so OLD and wise he is always right

And your check is in the mail, youngster. ;)

I can think of at least one woman Boofo was VERY wrong about. :satan:

Amy

Ouch!

And "woman" is a very loose term in this case. Mentality-wise, anyway.

I don't see the big deal.
If you want to charge for a product. There should be a % you give up to vb.org in advertisment and traffic they supply you.

Server space, bandwith, maintance all cost cash.

This place is for hacks made by vBulletin owners for free w/ donation link at most last I looked. If your in it for the cash, make your own site and do what you want. Don't cry and moan how someone runs their site, that your a guest of. To me that is moronic to say the least.

But then I see suff in black and white. There is no grey areas.

Sometimes black and white is a better picture than a messed up color one. ;)

I don't think many people have a problem with charging for hacks, if it is made clear from the start that something will cost money. What bugs people is when hacks are released for free, and then later, when lots of people are using them, charges start to appear for upgrades/updates.

There are some smaller hacks where I will never pay for.
On the other hand there are some aeeeeh lets say script that are so huge that this is more than a simple 3 liner hack.

If I want this functionality its up to me to decide if its worth the price or not but I will never blame an author to make a commercial hack out of a free one.
Its very time intensive to write a hack and its more time intensive to support it.

There is only one thing I really hate.

IF I buy a script and support and documentation are bad.
I really hate this. I understand that for free hacks the support can be limited but If I buy a hack I will be treated as customer and I want help if the stuff is not working :D

So everyone who is going to make a free hack a commercial one should do it if he/she can support it also...

We have discussed this in the past and never came to an agreement, at this time the upcoming 3.5 upgrade is taking up a lot of time so there has not been much discussion amoung the staff.

We are keep an eye on this thread so make sure to speak your mind if you feel inclined to do so. I've moved it to site feedback as it relates mainly to vB.org policy.

[edit] Please try to keep this one on topic.

What irks me, is not having to pay maybe $20 or $30 for a hack like GARS or GAL from The Geek - It's having to pay over $100 for something like vBSEO :ermm:

While I'm sure vBSEO is a very good modification I can't justify that much money for it...

Oh - Any someone else mentioned it - People releasing hacks here for free, and when they become ultra-popular releasing the upgrades as paid versions...

Chris

I have no problem with people changing their minds about hacks being paid after releasing them for free. The level of support required here can be overwhelming. I have tried checking the beta box, unchecking the supported box, putting things in my sig line and explaining about time limitations till I'm blue in the face. I'm still nagged daily on the board and via PM for added features and help when users foul things up. Heck, they even bug me to support hacks I didn't write and don't even use!

Amy

Spot on Amy.

I understand why it would be frustrating for some to install a hack that was put here FOC and then down the road the author decides that if you want further updates or releases - it will cost you.

However life has a funny way of doing things like this to you.

You can release something FOC and suddenly it takes over your freaking life. Sure, you want to continue work on it - but you get stuck as all your current time is spent slammed with support requests from people who couldn't be asked to follow the readme or who want help fixing someone else's work! If you have more than a couple popular hacks here on .org - you will find yourself in a free, part time support job. That means little to NO time to develop new, bigger, better additions which in turn equals serious burn out! Thats the key reason I went commercial. I had no time left to develop future additions AND support them for the masses of casual admins. Now I have less users in a more controlled environment that allows me to support and develop without getting an aneurysm doing it.

As for the price of stuff like vbSEO, I totally understand why some would object. However its all relative isn't it? If it really was too much then price would come down to where the market would support it. Or more inexpensive solutions would come onto the market. Me? I agree its expensive - however it is still an acceptable investment for what I get out of it so I bought it. I was the same with PhotoPost (which was around the same price). While PP is a great product, I eventually went to vBa as it suited my needs better and cost less. Its kind of ironic considering vB is the most expensive forum in its class.Llike going to a phpBB forum and seeing people flabbergasted about vb's price. Its all relative.

I love .org and miss the buzz of releasing work here. What I don't miss is the angry .orgers and the occasional user that treats you like he owns you because he installed your hack that you spent 3 months working on, released to the community FOC while he invested 2 seconds of his time (and would of halved that if he would have read the instructions ;) )

Here are some ideas...
Keep vborg free - :) - and their code as well and create a vbnet or something to the like with commercial products whom wish to profit from their coding. In this case, for those who wish for free hacks, go to one site, those who wish for "premium" hacks, go to another. That way, everyone is happy - heck, share the same database so that users from one can post and reply on the other and vice versa - no "new accounts." :P

And - give people the right to make their own versions (possibly released under the GNU/GPL?) of the premium hacks - then again, you get what you pay for - and if it's free - well. You also have the option for level of support - those who choose to pay get a better support than those who choose the free version.

I made very little as a coder for phpnuke but I enjoyed making things work - and others happy. It took me the better part of 6 months to figure out how the nuke code worked in order to start with my hacks. I'm on month two with vbulletin code and I'm not doing too bad :P - I'm just now starting to understand how plugins work. But one thing I have noticed is that in one instance where two similar hacks (using plugins were used) one prevented the other from working. That's an issue that could probably be addressed by creating more hooks. But who am I - just a newb LOL!

Edit: Of course, you may want to get permission from whomever if you want to create a knock-off free version :)

WHAT ?!

again, this useless debate? damn, i thought i've fixed this earlier this year.. looks like The Geek wants me to come back and slap his little pink butt... ;)

ok, i let the Boofo guy take over.. lol

Its only as useless as what you bring to it ;)

Probably the only time in history that I am actually rooting for da man in a thread.

vborg is a free site where peeps can come to make their site better. You come on here making the end users of hacks look like bad people, when in all actuality it is people that seek money over the internet for forum hacks that are really bad. Most board owners, the ones you dismiss as a mob, are good and decent people, trying to attract members to their forum. I have not seen one forum yet where you have to pay to be a member. In most cases, board owners are barely scraping by, such as the ones who do not use google ads and other such advertising and who rely on donations are in this "mob" you speak of.

vborg hosts some talent coders. They contribute a lot of their time and energy, to be sure. I as a board owner understand and respect these coders, even if I do not say it other than today. If you are a coder here, thank you thank you thank you. Some here donate money to these coders. That is the way that it has always been.

You have made many unsupported scenarios. Here's another. I am a board owner. If I have to pay for hack, I will do without the hack. I will open up my site to free coders and provide hacks to the people who want them. I will strongly support donations to these coders, but charge no one.

I am done being pissed off now now thanks to some lovely vodka. Goes back to the mob. "Ah brothers and sisters, I did but fight the good fight for us..."

Open your favorite text editor and add this:

Copy and paste PM response.

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As far as the original post, if anyone is attacked on this site because they offer commercial scripts in their signature or a previously free script is now commercial, the people doing the attacking should be banned per the forum rules. This would include through PMs and the forums Send Email functionality.

nexialys rawks. (the mobs speaks)

I don't believe we ever wanted "paid" hacks here, but a way for people to advertise their paid hacks, no one has to read the ads / posts / threads however we decided to impliment them here.

ok, I understand some of your points, but I do not understand the problem.

You have released some hacks. They are good hacks, I agree. However, if you are having all these problems, you can always igonore those that you did not create. Am I the only one that has "igonore user"?

I think you are wrong.