Don't read everything it's too much, but my opinion if the price is in a right proportion to the hack it is ok for me. It makes me only angry if the price is more than vb itself.
On the other side, if everything needed to be for free, products as the vbadvanced gallery or links directory would be not existing.
And it's right, if they use this forum to promote the products, they should spend some bucks for it.

Looks to me that many of the commercially-minded coders have solved their own issues by setting up another website where they can go into full-on promotion mode together. That's a nice solution -- let the lucrative market for paid hacks/etc. sustain itself. There's plenty of "business" as a vB-spinoff to be shared and plenty of truly talented hackers to produce vB-related products and services for those who are willing to pay $$$.

Now, this frees up the vb.org site from having to keep trying to resolve these little squabbles. Maybe we can do away with the friction that results from different subgroups pulling us off in different directions.

Those who wish volunteer their time and share their expertise with less experienced vB board owners can focus better on doing just that.... as it should be.

Thats not the problem we're trying to address. The issue is how to get the information to the VB user base. I don't want to have to search the internet to find a shopping cart add-on for VB, or a download manager or whatever I'm looking for.

If I stumble onto the site, I still have no idea how reputable the coder is and how good the support is. If it sucks, do you really think he/she is going to let that information remain public?

We're talking about a directory of VB add-ons with some type of feedback/rating system independent of the coders.

That's a problem that ALSO solves itself. If you guys set up a centralized website for promoting commercial hacks or shared links to other vB-related commercial sites that's reasonably well managed ... then it's good reputation and satified customer base will make it a successful venture. All you have to do is produce the same high quality hacks you've been doing all along and give your customers the support they need.

It's not that hard to promote it yourself... a good percentage of your fellow commercial coders will also be some of your best customers.

vB itself is sold thousands of times, so costs are spread among many customers. Custom scripts are only sold once or a few times. The costs of developing (some hacks might take weeks/months to develop) can only be spread over a few sales. So it is not surprise that they can cost more then vB itself.

MarcoH64 wrote ... (some hacks might take weeks/months to develop)

How typical is this for hacks provided here? ... taking out of the equation, coders who take their time, (because that's the deal with freebies), and those who just don't have time to tackle it?

Most mods I'm interested in are essentially to improve specific functionalities of vB.
I am using or looking at other more extensive software which integrates or functions alongside vb in specific ways, but I would consider these somewhat different to applications that are only modeled to work with vB.

~ Mark

You would be surprised how much time has been spend on some hacks. And i am not only talking about the obvious ones like the big portals.

If someone has a specific wish for a hack or can make money out of this hack, i think it is more then reasonable that some money is asked. If it is somehting that is widely asked by the whole community and can not be used to make money, i often just create it for free, otherwise they will have to pay (sometimes just a symbolic amount).

Even with hacks that are sold for higher prices (let's say more then the costs of vB), if you would calculate the hourly income from it (counting coding, giving support, etc..) it would be a price that most people would not accept for a normal job.

Thanks for the insight! I can see that a lot of time and effort goes into testing and support.
I'll do my bit and offer a donation for each working free mod I install.

Maybe if more people would donate, there wouldn't be as much payed hacks as there are now. 1 single payed (small, cheap) hack will give me more income then 10 free (donation ware) hacks that have been released more then a year. As a coder you can be happy if you get a single ($5-20) donation on a hack. Not something to complain about, as a coder you have choosen to release it for free, but just to give an indication.

In vb2 there was a very good gallery free, there was stores, arcades, top lists and on and on and on.... All big huge hacks free with in the community.

But I believe if this goes thru and they can promote their business on org I will personally seek another place. .org was based on sharing, helping, community a place to share hacks (not sell them). Putting this in place (at least in my view) will destroy everything .org is meant to be.

Those who make the hacks that are pay did those for the money, if they was for the interest in the community or anything then it would be free and something they made regardless for their own site.

That is how it used to be, people made something for their site and where nice enough to share the code they had altered, but as everything in life greed and money rule.

Insane - im sorry you feel that way however its coming from someone who has given 1 small modification to the communinty. A good one, however it pales in comparison to some hacks that pro coders do. Hell, GARS is thousands and thousands of lines and I have worked on it now for 5 months (and its still not done!).
Even the stuff I have released here FOC is upwards of thousands of lines. If you want to take your bat and ball home because you only want this to be a place where people share projects that are 10-100 lines long and take an hour to a week to write then surly you must realise you have capped the potential of what can be offered here? And as such capped the potential of what customers can get from .org.

Thanks

His hack is just as important here as anyone else's. Were your first few hacks even near what your potential is now? I don't think so. That is very arrogant of you to even try and compare your code or anyone else's and his. That is why I am so dead against this. Too many egos and not rembereing how things were when you first started out here.

I would not have much objections against a coder who releases most of his work for free, and have 1 special project that he is selling. The 'problem' starts when people start using vb.org only to sell their payed projects. But it would be almost impossable to catch this in rules.

I think you need to chill Boofo - I said i thought his hack was quite good. What I expressed frustration over is the serious lack of empathy and understanding from people who:

1- Don't already give to the community
2- Offer a couple of small modifications

To many people that fall into the above points - they just expect you to produce projects that take months to do and thousands of lines of code and then to support it - for free or else they are going home... thats not arrogant?

Boofo - you are always going to be right. If Jelsoft doesn't grow .org then it you will be justified for your fire and brimstone. If they do it and it fails - its because of your fire and brimstone, if they do it and succeed its because of all the warnings about your fire and brimstone. Thats the great benefit of being a doomsayer - you've covered your butt from all angles :)

Actually a lot of my hack was help from Kirby (what can I say I must be honest) in implementing a few things that rid of file edits. And Boofo at pushing it to be no file edits. And others for providing alternative templates.

And your right I have yet to have time to contribute a lot to the community, although 89 or so have enjoyed my release. And the ‘thank you’ I get from the first person made the time worth wild.

But you missed the entire point of it, which is ok but I shall repeat it. My release was something I needed for my community (article system was to pricy for the little it offered that I ‘needed’) and my solution was what I needed. So I did in the vb.org spirit (or what I thought it was perhaps I am wrong) and shared my work.

I have a few things planned for my community in time to come and as I do I will both share it on vb org and learn how to improve it. That is if vb org does not go commercial.

Believe it or not all these paid add ons could be easily done if someone wished to put forth the time seeing as they run off vbulletins heart, and as for support if you look at my thread even Kirby who not only helped but provided support on a hack not even in his name.

I don't need to chill, you do. You try to come across as this kind, caring individual that wants to give so much to the org when in reality, you are looking to make money off of it. No matter how you color it, you belittle those that don't write major hacks, either because they don't have the knowledge and skill yet, or because they are new and haven't had enough time to do something of that caliber. There are those hear that DO some major hacks and they are still releasing them for free. Andreas and the Journal Hack comes to mind.

And it seems that there are more against the idea of this thread than are for it. That should tell you something. ;)

Not everyone feels the need to write 'large hacks'.

In fact I don't write anything specifically for .org - I do stuff for the forum I am an administrator on, and then release it here (FOC) for anyone else to make use of if they want (and looking at my stats, it seems plenty do).

I don't think anyone is advocating leaving this site; there simply appears to be a demand for commercial addons for vBulletin and as such it doesn't seem unreasonable to try and put together the "ultimate resource" for them.

Yes, a demand from a small groups of members. Adding commercial hacks and the headaches that go with policing them isn't going to make this site any more ultimate than it is now. It will cause more problems that it will fix.

And I don't believe it is right to take advantage of new members or the org by trying to make a quick buck off of them.

You can be pretty abrasive, so if you are surprised when someone suggests you might need to "chill", you might want to reconsider your wording a little more carefully. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make your heavy handed remarks appropriate.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to make a buck from your efforts. Like I said the marketplace will determine the value of your efforts, if nobody likes what you've done and won't pay for it, then you fail.

This site isn't going to suffer from the addition of commercial add-ons to its pages, nor will it suffer from another site being developed to promote what isn't allowed here. Either way this isn't about this site, it's about fulfilling customers wants - if .org doesn't want to offering something that has obvious value, then what do you expect?

And adding styles to this site wasn't a headache?

Either way, this site won't suffer. It's simply a question of what resources you want to privde to your members.

Apparently you haven't read the whole thread. There are more people NOT wanting this than do. That should speak for itself.

As far as my so called "abrasiveness" goes, I was, and am, no more abrasive than the post I was quoting.

Actually, I have read the whole thread and I wasn't aware that there was a poll in place. Does it require a majority to make it useful? If even a minority find it benefitial, is it still considered a benefit?

I didn't start this thread and my only point is that being the "ultimate" resources for vBulletin shouldn't necessarily stop at something being "free". I release free products as well as develop paid-addons, are either development efforts less worthy than the other?

I very much agree with the above .... .org should be as I always has been, a place for people to share there work not to sell there work. I`m not saying people shouldn`t be able to charge for there work, in fact I agree that they should be able to. I just don`t think that .org is the place to do this.

I use this site to download the hacks I need for my site, and to learn from then in the hope that one day I will be able to put back into the vbulletin community that in which I have learnt. Personally I have pretty much the same opinion as above, I would go elsewhere as advertised/paid hacks are not what I came here for.

IMHO, Jelsoft may need to step in and perhaps install some new staff members that are more open to progressive ideas.

Some members of the current crew are getting a little stale in their thought processes.

There is a market for professional addons, full-stop. Nurture it and the quality of offerings will improve. That's not to say the FOC isn't quality but I and others would like more choice. Under the current system, this just isn't possible.

(1) nobody owes anyone anything here. To imply that coders learn everything there is to know about coding here is far-fetched, especially with the recently released API docs from Jelsoft.

(2) there are over 100,000 members here and Boofo wants to imply that the majority are fully against allowing commercial interests. Umm, OK.

(3) I am agreeing with MPDev here so you must know how wrong your position must be! :D (Hi MP, good luck with the new kid - we had a boy on the 1st :D )

Cheers,

~Regs.

If a product sucks, this forum will be overwhelmed with BS complaints.

If a coder sucks, this forum will be overwhelmed with BS complaints.

If a coder discontinues or disappears, this forum will be overwhelmed with BS complaints.

If money is ripped, this forum will be overwhelmed with BS complaints.

There are alot of avenues to get your work advertised. This place has enough politics. With free, you get what you paid for and know the rules.

I'd love free advertising for my work and there are plenty of ways to get it. My success does not hinge on forcing a rule change here which will cause more work for volunteers. That's not how buisness works. If your's does, you're already failing.

I think I speak for a majority of members when I say that if we were made of money, we might think differently.
Let me clarify - If we had the money, we would be more inclined to want to purchase commercial hacks.

Given that the "majority" of people here (read 100%) purchased vBulletin, I sincerely doubt you can make the case that nobody has any money to buy anything else. I suspect if that were true, they would have elected to use a "free" forum to begin with. So let's not play the "can't afford it, so it doesn't belong" card again, it doesn't hold any water here.

So far the "majority" hasn't spoken (since there is no poll) and nobody has been elected to speak for them.

Actually not all 100% of users here are licenced ;)

Chris

Excuse me for being offended that I for one can't afford your $$ hacks. It took 12 months for me to afford vBulletin... so what makes you "coders for dollars" think that people like me are made of money? Just because you can afford it doesn"t mean you should have a holier-than-thou attitude towards those who cannot. You have no right to judge me and for the sake of arguement I used a free forum to begin with - that is until I could afford to purchase vbulletin.

I will agree to that.

And one last thing...

Last year, I made $2,800 before taxes (yes - less than $3k) for the entire year.
This year, I'm lucky to have made (before taxes) $8,300 with one month left. I live on food stamps and work my butt off at $7.50/hour to put food and clothing on my family of 4. My two children (one just born less than 2 months ago) are on WIC. I am not rich, nor am I well off, as some people might assume.

I saved up for what I have now. With the help of some friends, I'd say we're doing pretty good.

That's all I have to say. Just think about that the next time you assume that because we paid for vbulletin, we can afford to pay for hacks as well.

'nuff said

* christianb unsubscribes from this thread.

Wrong for the second time. You have no idea what it is like for the person on the other end.

Then how can I be wrong? And, technically, I only said I didn't think he could make the case and made no judgement about the "person on the other end".

This site was created as a place where licensed vB owners could share modifications - for free - to support each other. And that's how vb.org needs to stay. Just because elaborate hacks and add-ons can be sold and some so-called "professional" coders resent the NO SOLICITING sign over the door is no reason to change the core purpose of this site.

Look at all the commercial sites out there now that function for the sole purpose of selling vB hacks, styles, and add-ons. If we let those folks turn this .org site into some Jelsoft-supported clearing house for all of those other, competing commercial efforts ... then where else are vB license owners supposed to go to share FREE hacks and customizations?

This is the only place possible that can allow board owners to give support to each other. Don't mess this up.

I certainly don't resent that paid add-ons are not embraced on this site, I fully recognize that the owners are free to set their own agenda and follow it. I participate in the spirit in which the forum operates and I offer modifications I've made to others at no cost. I've never complained or suggested that I wouldn't participate otherwise.

But knowing that every site evolves over time to accommodate its members, I think there is room for promoting paid add-ons. That doesn't change my opinion about the value offered by this site, I just happen to think that the market has matured enough that it should be a consideration. I'm more than willing to discuss the pros/cons in a reasonable manner - if someone says they don't belong because nobody can afford them, I would suggest otherwise based on my 5 years of selling add-ons for vBulletin. If someone says they don't belong because it's too much work, then I would compare it to adding styles and ask is it really that much more effort? If you don't want to have the discussion, then don't try to use excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny - just say you won't allow them because you don't want them here. There is no argument to counter that.

Nobody HAS to start with vB. There's many free alternatives, and the only person that can justifiably complain about the cost of vB is someone living in a 3rd world country earning $1 a day.
The fact is, when it comes to investing $$$ for interactive internet software, the cost of vB is a pittance compared to all the other expenses involved, especially if one takes into account the time and effort needed to develop a site.

Pre 2000, I never wrote period, never touched a keyboard/computer or used the net.
My interest was never about the computer internet, rather, how to use this medium to share specific interests, ideas and experiences with others around the world.
I had wrongly presumed in 2000 that internet technology was more advanced more user-friendly ... To the contrary, it has been a wild ride along the razors edge of technological innovation, and after 5 years I'm somewhat battered but 90+ % satisfied with the results.
It's the 10% that I may need mods/plugins.

If I end up having to pay for some, so be it, I'll start saving up.

But the fact that many have offered their mods for free should never be underestimated (in this dog eat dog world we live in)

It's unfortunate that to hear that few bother to contribute with a donation.

A suggestion ... auto include a succinct line encouraging installers to donate.

Think of how other NP org's phrase things in their fund drives.

There are many benefits to supporting/contributing to free services.
The community spirit is one.

I'm very glad that the vB.org community exists, as this is where I can learn all about the cutting edge, far out stuff that can be done with vB.

For a starter, I would like to see an easy method/ directory/list of coders and the free hacks they have produced.
If each coder had a link to their site, with paid versions, so much the better!

I personally will base my mod choices on the track record of what a coder has contributed to vB.org AND of other vB/non vb related products that they may provide.

Let's face it, when you use a software app of any kind it's like entering a marriage of which divorce could be brutal.
We using vB are fortunate, with I hope, few divorces.
And though we might gripe about some things not panning out as anticipated, we can always come to vB.org for therapy ;)

~ Mark

You know what... speaking for me, personally, that is exactly what I'm saying. I don't want commercial projects advertised here ... period. And I know I'm not the only member who feels this way.

This doesn't mean that I don't ALSO support commercial hacks that are sold someplace else. I've also purchased several premium add-ons and premium styles because I decided they were worth the added expense ... for my site. We all make that decision for ourselves.

That being said, just what are those "... excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny" you're referring to? I've seen plenty of those posted on both sides of the question.. but mostly from angry people who're doing little more than throwing rocks at each other.

Let's look at some points made throughout this thread... Many of the advanced coders here have given away an enormous amount of free hacks. And no matter how diligent they were and how helpful and generous they've been, they still got badgered by thoughtless idiots who whined over every imaginable bug and truly expected to come here and get personal services for nothing. So many of these coders got fed up/burned out and they packed up their cookies and went home. Or, they set up a commercial site somewhere else so they could at least get some money back for the hard work they put into this (which is fine).

Will allowing commercial hackers to advertise here change or improve any of this? No. Not a chance. It just means those self-absorbed jerks will have paid hard-earned money for what they got, and that gives them a legitimate reason to complain when something isn't well coded and demand the higher level of support services they bought. Those hassles simply don't belong here. It interferes with the real purpose why this extended community is here.

Look what has happened to this site over the last few years just from what little advertsing and self-promotion that has been allowed in this far. I've read those well-intended threads where some guy got ripped off (or merely think he got ripped off) by another member who agreed to install a hack for $$$. Those almost always degrade into an endless pissing contest between people who also got taken vs. loyal customers and faithful friends who jump in to defend the poor sot who just got blasted in public. In the end, it's always the same thing. It's all one person's word against another in a situation where we'll never know who's right and who's wrong. And the same old advice the purchaser didn't heed in the first place... to not pay for services upfront when dealing with someone you don't know.

Is this the natural evolution everyone wants more of here? Not me... not at all. And why should the vb.org staff, or Jelsoft representatives for that matter, be bothered with crap like this ... here at vb.org? That's not their mess to clean up.

They allowed in a small section where buyers and sellers could get connected.. people can offer to pay someone to do work for them and commercial coders can contact members directly to quote their fees. A lot of good may or may not have come from that... personally, I haven't participated there so I can't speak for either side in those transactions. But there's a spillover effect that's easy to see all over the other sections of this site. And it's a horrible change that has affected how people relate to each other in this community.

As an example -- A new licensed member gets in way over his head, technically, and something he thought was easy to do blows up his site. He comes here asking ... sometimes begging ... for someone to PLEASE help him fix his board. Or asks for advice on how to fix it himself. Not everyone in a situation like that gets very good assistance. And it really saddens me to see replies to that person where another member says, oh I can fix it for you if you're willing to pay what I charge for my time. It wasn't all that long ago when someone else would have answered that thread with basic helpful advice for FREE, telling him to use the search feature or pointing him to a well-known thread that will help him solve his own problem and learn how to manage his own changes. But those people don't post those replies anymore. Someone else already did in a different way, so they let it go.

A while later the same person posts another plea for help that goes unanswered ... then the thread drops away and I don't know if that person ever even comes back here anymore.

Look at how many times new people post the first time saying they're willing to pay $20 to anyone who will help them. Or asking how much would it cost to hire someone to... etc.... etc....

We weren't getting all that nonsense here two years ago.

Well, it's just a thought. The idea is to help keep the free hacks from dying out as coders start becoming more interested in being paid. I think vB.org should allow commercial hacks to be posted here on the site, as it would be useful for all of us. And certainly some hacks should be payed for with the amount of development time involved. However, there needs to be some type of requirement in place that forces the commercial coders to keep creating free hacks if they want to be able to post their commercial hacks. Maybe making a LITE version of the payed hack isn't the answer, but the requirement could be something like - for every new commecial hack you post, you must also post one new free hack. You get the idea. There IS a way to make it work.

This site was built on free hacks. Ever since the payed request area opened, far fewer coders tend to give advice. It seems like they're all hanging out in the paid section now. Just look at how many hacks there were for vB2 compared to vB3. Hell, I'd venture to guess that half the 3.0 hacks will never be ported over to 3.5 because most people don't feel like volunteering while watching others get payed. If vb.org allowed commercial hacks without a way to keep the free hacks from dying, this site would lose its spirit completely. Why create a free hack when you can get payed? There needs to be a balance if commercial hacks are allowed here.

I'm all for supporting both the commercial and free hacks - but when money starts getting thrown around, greed takes over and the sharing/helping spirit fades - capitalism at its finest I suppose. Anyway, I hope there can be a compromise and a solution that will make us all happy AND keep the spirit of this site alive.

Hey Mark, some of us built and launched our sites for less than half the cost of vBulletin (not considering my time - which didn't cost me a penny). This forum script was by far my largest expense when creating my first community site from scratch. Anyone can justifiably complain about the cost of vB and commercial hacks - it's not cheap, but it's the best out there. Not everyone can afford it or justify paying for it. Not everyone has been able to set their site up in a way to recoup the costs. And it's difficult to sit here and read posts by people making light of others' financial situations. To assume that an owned license ($160 or $80 per year) is a drop in the bucket for everyone here is a bit unfair. Just because they paid for a license doesn't mean they have money to burn. But this isn't the point that should be debated anyway.

It's not about whether or not people are able to pay for a hack - some can, some can't. It's not about a coder's choice to charge for a hack - that's their perogative. It's about whether or not paid hacks should be allowed to be promoted on a site that was originally launched to allow vB license owners to share hacks amongst eachother - for free. Let's debate the correct topic and stop making assumptions/judgements about one another.

I still think we could have a section where commercial hacks are posted (maybe not supported here, but linked to), as long as the coders agree to continue to make new free hacks available as well. If you're going to promote your commercial services here, you should continue to contribute in a way that fits in with the spirit of the site.

Talisman wrote ... "We weren't getting all that nonsense here two years ago."

Well there's gonna be more nonsense now as non-tech vB'ers like me discover the ease of installing plugins, which doesn't = bug-free/trouble-free plugins, which = more support requests from newcomer bonefide newbies.

This shouldn't be a problem if others using the free plugins who have some knowledge chip in with newbie support issues ...

Overall it's vb who should also be benefiting from contributions to vB.org, and if this is reflected in their sales, perhaps they could donate extra funds towards staff support etc.

It is in vB.coms best interest to make vB.org the best it can be ...

I personally think vB has been slow to introduce new user noticeable features in the 4 years I've had their software though will accept this for other efforts to build a rock solid platform.
But if the vB.org had not been here, I most certainly would have been looking for greener pastures.

~ Mark

You know, instead of another forum a simple hotscripts.com for vB add-ons (free or not) would be benefitial. With a rating/comment system in place you can forgo the whole vB.org duplication and just provide a nice resource index to add-ons for vBulletin.

I recently saw a product (not a forum software) that had included 30 + plugins with it's product ... basically it gives the consumer much better control from the start, of what they want as part of their product.

I am guessing that plugins are an overdue concept and if implemented earlier in vB development vB might be different.

I personally feel that if vb didn't have to spend the time and energy to work on the guts of this app, that numerous mods at vb.org would now be part of vb3.
I am only bringing this up because of my experience with other software providers who didn't have as active mod community instead went ahead and came up with many features that members requested, including support. This is what makes them great products.

What surprises me is that there appears to be very few mods at vB.org that are now a part of vB3+ (Am I wrong? )

Not knowing much about techno business issues I would have thought there would be more financial incentive and a workable relationship between coders, mods and the vB product.

Essentially vB must ensure that new features be continually added to this product at no increase to the price of the product, though it might charge extra for advanced plugins.

I would think it'd be a difficult decision as an independent coder to expend a great deal of time on a complex mod if vb also had one up it's sleeve.

Well, all I can say is the times are a changing.

~ Mark