And you and I both know Amy what has happened in the past when an author has gone to "paid" staus. It disrupted everything here for a while. You had authors right and left thinking they could code anything and sell it via the org (in sigs, etc.). And we spent more time dealing with "I have been screwed by so-and-so, he now has my money and is gone" type threads/posts than anything for a while here.

No matter how you work it, once Jelsoft sanctions commercial hacks here, then they (and staff here) will end up being the ones to answer for whatever pops up concerning those hacks. Sure, it looks good on paper, but to actually implement it and make it work will be about as possible as me ever becoming a coder as good as Andreas. Does that sum it all up? ;)

I am already working on that. Since my sites gonna offer full php and vbulletin training.

Like we have said restrict to thoose of use that are known as reputable.

Boofo - you're doom-saying again. Your vision of .org is of tranquility and peacefulness. Along comes an avenue to inform customers of paid additions and suddenly its all evil and seedy.

For all the fire and brimstone, the fact is that with NO outlet for customers to find reputable professionals for add ons, the quality and tone of participation has decreased dramatically here. How is the pessimistic approach going to 'heal the woe'?

Especially as all of the 'ive been screwed by so and so' happens because you basically created a black market for custom work. A directory for commercial scripts are far less likely to cause somebody to take the money and run. Why? Painfully obvious: The scripts already exist and any money being gnerated is from repeat sales. Custom work doesn't fall into this category.

Hopefully that may stop your sky from falling in ;)

Maybe the only solution now is to start vbprofessional, and provide a resource for customers of vb. People can release code FOC or charge for it. It can be a joint venture with the coders there. Then .org can change its slogan to A nice resource for those that like to fiddle with vB' ;)

Would be a shame for vB to have the weakest and angriest resource for its customers.

heh a quick one :p

Who deems them reputable? Surely that is the opinion of the person or persons who are reviewing them at the time...

For one, we can't expect the official Jelsoft team to spend their time figuring out which coders are and are not "reputable"...

That then leaves the reputation of a coder's status to fall on us; We can either elect to have the community to vote, and an unpopular person doesn't get "reputable" status because some have a vendetta, or we as the staff have to decide, at which point a user can turn round and demand to know why we haven't deemed them reputable, which can then bring personal issues with the staff here...

The best policy for now is just not to allow it - I imagine it will be revisited several times, but as everyone knows you can't make everyone happy - Some will be put out by either conforming or not conforming to what a certain few believe this site should be like, and at this present time, the hassle of implementing anything before we upgrade to 3.5 is not worth it...

Chris

My sky won't fall in no matter how it goes. I'm beyond that. ;)

From what I've seen in this thread so far, and the others before it, there are more against a move to commercialization than are for it. That ought to be some sort of sign, don't you think?

And if it goes that we choose not to allow commercial hacks here, that isn't going to make the org any less of a resource site. It's been doing fine without them so far. ;)

As far as users being able to find commercial addons, there doesn't seem to be any problem with them finding them if they want them. There are a few commercial add-ons that are doing very well, and they don't advertise here.

And like Chris mentioned, who decides who's reputable and who isn't? As far as vb.org being "the weakest and angriest resource for its customers" if we don't allow commercial stuff here, that is YOUR opinion, not the majority's.

I just think it would end up all being more of a headache trying to police it than anything else. And no matter what Jelsoft decides, not everyone is going to be happy or satisfied with the outcome. This debate will linger on forever, in one way or another, no matter how it goes.

I'm done now. This is my final post for this thread. It just isn't worth debating about anymore. ;)

There are probiably many reasons we havent seen more of the "new crowd" such as people like me..... some of us <me> dont chime in with thoughts or comments because well frankly we're new and dont want to piss off the people that we might need help from later on down the road... others might have bad flashbacks of asking for help or information from other places that are truely full of over inflated egomaniacs that assume we all should know what they know <thinks of what i was told about coppermine>... and then again they simply might not have a clue what to say or add at all and dont want to look the fool by asking/adding to what they dont <but want to> understand.

Whereas i agree with this about the ones that gripe complain and are just flat out rude there are some out there who wont ever know how to do that but try <in their minds> to help by asking for, about, or if its possible for something to be done.. or added to a hack that has caught their eye <i for one have im assuming truly annoyed someone who means alot to me that has experience with vB on wether something is possible.. how do you do this or that or just flat out noob type questions (waves at her lol) > anyways its the low post lack of techie skilled people that will in the end be the ones that pay for the commercial hacks for the most part

BTW... incase it might get misunderstood i do realise AN-net ment the ones that were rude and beligerent not just newbies in general so please dont take offence for me using what was said there

This is one of the reasons i was introduced to this site and the .com site because of how much can be learned through here... of which i truely hope to beable to learn how to do everything from Styles to complex hacks eventually! how to do so? all i can do is ask questions... <search myself silly first looking through the old threads to see if i can find the answer myself first so i dont become a forum mosquito and just pester and buzz anyone and everyone for simple stuff> so in regards to what Brad said.... i hope that "Teaching" support never dissapears... i'm definatly wanting it

Now the actual topic of this thread

where as im a noob when it comes to vB things i completely support the FOC hacks <duh! lol> but i also can understand it from the aspect that somethings no matter how much we'd wish otherwise cant be done as we'd like FOC ... does that mean i'm going to run out and buy every pay hack i come across? ofcourse not thats simple common sense if you want it and need ot, or can use it... buy it . if it exists FOC search for it and use that instead...im a cheapass and im the first to admit it..... but things like portals, styles, hacks, vB itself yes if ive got the money or want it bad enough i'll pay... i might grumble simply because i'll miss my money lol <precious sweet precious cash> but in the end i will bennifet from both paid and FOC items....keep it on your site...add it to this site... make another site.... pay for support and enforce that its given.....whatever actually happens in the end people will still use the site or sites and vB <i think anyways> will still be a great thing.

In Closing

Unfortunatly thats impossible......as its been said before you cant please everyone.... no matter what will be or wont be done someone will always be unhappy about it and sadly some will even gripe complain and flame. For those of you that are the end decision makers for stuff like this ya'll have my sympathys lol youve got a target on you so to speak regardless of which way you go

So...good luck and good discussions everyone... i'm looking forward to hopefully getitng to know and possibly learn from as many of you out there as possible.

<stumbles awkardly off the stage to let the discussions carry on>

@Boofo Fair enough, I agree that regardless of the outcome, there will be those that will be upset over the decision. The goal however should be on a solution that works for the majority while respecting the needs and requirements of the minority.

While you claim the majority don't want it here, I would disagree and say that my perception is that most are indifferent to it, many think it would be positive and some would hate it. Therefore .orgs process is catering to those few that dig their heels in about it. I do not see an overwhelming amount of people on either side of the fence coming into this thread voicing strong opinions either way. Regardless, I see more coders supporting a move than more coders against it (unless I am wrong you are the only one that has released modifications strongly opposed to it). Taking that into account I feel that its important to give a little more weight to those putting in the work creating, maintaining and supporting over those that just reap the benefits. I am not saying its because they are better people, just that without those doing the work, the others have little to gain.

Maybe put forward a poll?
1- Are you greatly opposed to .org providing information on commercial vb enhancements?
2- Do you think it would be a positive addition to .org to provide information on commercial vb enhancements?
3- I'm not bothered either way.

The only caution I would provide in regards to the above poll is the natural weight of the givers and receivers. Keep in mind that only a tiny % of those on this site actually contribute.

If I were to conduct a poll on my site about 'would you like to see content added to the site however you would have to pay to see those additions?' some would be realistic with 'Sure, if I want it, ill buy it' while many would simply say 'no, give it to us for free' (Especially if I had a vocal moderator who had already made his mind up about it before it had even been discussed ;))

On a side not: I don't think coders are special, I don't think users are bad. There are people in both camps that are bad - and both have needs but that isn't and shouldn't be the issue anymore. It should be focused on what will move .org forward to become a better resource for Jelsoft customers.

And I apologize for my off hand 'weakest and angriest' comment. It was OTT and irresponsible of me.

Let me take myself as an average example. i have around 60 cool plugins installed for my forums for FREE.

Now, imagine all of them are paid...

That would force me to shell out a whopping (60 plugin x $30 (at least)) ==> US$1800 per annum, which literally means that poor webmasters like myself, wont never be able to enjoy most of the coolest products anymore... :(

I think, i would ideally stick with vB.org's present policy of only encouraging FREE community of hackers. Coders with paid PRO versions can always advertise their products in their signatures as presently being done by many. I see no problem with that.

Basically in my mind.. "It'd be nice to know"

As a vBulletin coder and webmaster it'd be nice to know what commercial stuff there is out there, just because I'm informed of it doesn't mean I haveto buy it, and just because a paid version exists doesn't mean a free one won't eventually.. Infact I think being able to let people know about scripts here could lead to the production of "Lite" versions to aid the commercial venture..

Right now to find out what commercial add-on you can get your hands on it involves word-of-mouth, scrabbling around at hotscripts or on google or maybe if your lucky stumbling across a link in a sig.. It'd be much easier from a users point of view to have a list of whats available here with a few details, a link and then the all important user comments..

Often when your stumbling blind to a developers site you don't have any clue on just how good a script is, and you can't ask other vbulletin users here right now, so for me it'd be nicer to have the links and the feedback here..

Knowledge is Power, and I want the power to run the best vBulletin Powered Forum I can..

phpBB is free, why ain't ya using it?
ontop of that, its got thousands and thousands of mods and addons that are also free, why ain't ya using that them too?

Did magicly we relize somewhere along the way that sometimes paid is better, and comes with better things?

Free addons will never stop, but neither will paid ones, we (the staff of .org) might as well take advantage of the situtation by allowing coders who want to "advertise" their sites on .org. If its styles / hacks / etc, even if its just a site listing.

Isn't the title on this site "The Ultimate vB Resource"?

Shouldn't that maybe read "The Ultimate Free vB Resource"? I mean, since you explictly limit the types of resources that can be posted, can you really, truely claim "ultimate" status?

After all, "ultimate" means "incapable of further analysis, division, or separation". When you ignore/hide/prevent the growing community of professional add-ons, I think you can no longer claim "ultimate" status.

I disagree. Its very difficult finding commercial add-ons and then sorting through them to find out which ones are good quality and which ones aren't. You can't rely on a coder's own support site because he/she has total control of what is and isn't viewable by the public.

We do need a information clearinghouse for commerical add-ons. One where the people who haved used it can rate it and comment on it. Maybe VB.Org isn't the place for it. Fine, I can live with that. But the idea that "most people want free stuff so its a bad idea" is ludicrous.

Think back to when IPB was free and VB was commercial. Recall every argument in favor of VB over IPB. How do those arguments not justify commercial add-ons over FOC add-ons with dubious support on irregular release schedules?

Geek, I absolutely love the idea of vbprofessional.com, especially if it not only is an area that provides consolidated access to commcerial add-ons but also provides a method to bid out jobs similar to GetAFreelancer.Com.

maybe he saved up for vbulletin. And vbulletin has lots of mods and addons that are also free, he is using them (60 as he said).

I know you're just trying to make a point, but don't try to twist his post around to help you. He never said he only used free stuff, just simply that if everything cost money it'd be harder for him to add mods to his board.

@cinq:

Thank-you for the *** Removed, once a link in this thread is enough, more will be considered spamming ***:)

I'm using it as a comparsion tool, nothing else. I'm not trying to twist things. Which I could do, but I won't.

I'm trying to point out the fact that some products are not free, and generally this is acompanied by a more dedicated level of support and updates.

Yeah, actually, that was my idea. ;)

Much love to whoever came up with it and anyone who supports it.

Maybe the only way forward is a co-op venture of coders to create a community where coders can advertise their services, sell their products and post their free modifications (essentially what vb.org should do). My only concern is that if that community were to take off, it would render .org totally useless.

Maybe if we could get a clear consensus on the direction Jelsoft would like to go, we could axe the concept or at least see if other developers are in for a joint venture. It's not like this discussion has come up out of the blue - this has been going on for months now. If the issue doesn't get gently pushed to a decision I am afraid it may fall into the typical "the team is discussing this" vortex where no decision will ever come back out alive.

Thanks

hehe. wouldnt be the first time Ive knicked one of his ideas :devious:

That's funny, it wasn't there yesterday, seems someone took the idea and registered it.

I'll expect my royalities in the form of a cashiers check. :D

hey, wasnt me this time!

I tried searching the thread and couldni't find it, but someone posted a link to a site which they said had premium hacks for vBulletin or something. Can anyone repost it if they remember?

I don't think it would change much here seeing as how .org gets the direct links/advertising from .com

How ironic is that Easy! The problem there are many premium hack sites - depends on what you are after.What I was meaning about the .org statement was that IF the community were to start to grow it could affect .org as it could become impotent without the people that release code here. If a co-op site were set up with all the things we have all been suggesting and it works better for the coders, there is always a chance many may not be bothered to post around here as much. (Damn, now I'm being a doom-sayer!)

MP - looks like someone travelled back in time! vbprofessionals has been registered for 3 years! I just tried at least 10 other variants and could only come up with vbaddons which is pants ;)

I posted a link to a vB site that allows advertising of any software. It has not caught on for vB hacks, but anyone that has one should have it posted there with a link.

*** Once in a thread is enough ***

The owner is a nice guy and welcomes the posts. I have nothing to do with the place except that I use it.

oddly enough, I've seen this before. One day a group of us was looking at a name to register. We checked the status and it was fine. The next day we decided to register it and it was gone. We looked up the info shortly after and it had the correct day, then when we rechecked it said it had been registered for a couple years??

That's not a field that the domain owner can edit is it?

As far as the link, I wasn't looking for any link for premium hacks, but there is/was some post in this thread that I wanted to check out and I can't find it now.

*edit*
ok, thanks noppid I think that's it. I jumped to the conclusion that it had a lot of vb mods I guess. Thanks for the post.

I'd be willing to setup a board for Paid Modifications seperate from vB.org using what vB.org staff wish to volunteer for people to advertise their products on - If the idea works well then we as a team could present it to Jelsoft...

I don't want to take away from the Community here but I can't see that any solution will make everyone happy...

Chris

What many of the people here in this forum don't get through their thick skull is that not everybody likes free hacks. Most of vbulletin customers don't know a thing about a line of code (not my words but vbulletin's). This hack forum is only for geeks not for the majority of customers of vbulletin. We need paid hacks! Paid hacks should be a forum at the top of this forum not hidden where it is now.

Many people just hate these free hacks myself included. You have to chase the hack developers to do an update on the darn hacks and put up with their .... I'd like to see paid hacks around here but the mentality (of some of the geeks) in this forum is FREE FREE FREEE HACKS BUT IF THERE IS A BUG, YOU ARE SCREWED TILL THE NEXT UPDATE, IF EVER! Meantime, your forum paralized. Example: ucash, ushop and many others.

I guess you coders don't like money. There are hundred of thousand$ to be made by selling hacks for vbulletin. I have posted hack projects here before but nobody answers. It is just 'cause of the mentality of this forum FREE FREE FREE and unreliable!

Again, if you need another push I repeat, most customers of vbulletin don't know a line of code and we members need coders that develop hacks for it and keep them up-to-date. There is a lot of money to be made! Look at how much money Nash is making by creating hacks for phpprobid! http://www.nashbrooklyn.com/forums/forum-89.html I have bought every single mod he has released for phpprobid. He keeps them up-to-date too! You ask him for a mod, he and his team develop it and sell it to his customer base. Customers are happy, he is happy. No coder chasing or problems going on. End of story.

That would be great but who would pay the hosting & domain fees? :(

vbulletin-premium.org

:p so unoriginal, I know :ermm:

Starting to come together now ;)

I (like other coders I know) would be more than happy to work as a team to create a co-operative site for showcasing premium commercial add ons. After jmw's interesting post - its becoming more blatantly obvious that its needed (I think).

I only have to protest about him quoting my post and using geek in a derogatory manner. After all, I'm on his side!

Next step: Maybe get together via IRC and bang about ideas.

Yup..looking like it is coming together..when great minds think alike, the impossible becomes possible :)

I too wouldnt mind helping out as a team member for such site :)

- Tyler

An idea would be that Jelsoft endorsed the site and the coders would have to pay a LITTLE annual fee to have their product advertised there. I mean, like $20 or $30 a year wouldn't be much, would it? ;)

I dont think funding will be too much of an issue. With a group of professionals splitting the costs, it should be a smaller investment than if it were done here.

Jelsoft doesnt endorse anything, including anything posted here..so why would they suddenly change?

Ah, the mention of some green comes to mind eh :ninja:

Well I already own a couple of useful domains so I don't mind paying for the domain; Hosting costs as The Geek said could be spread accross from people to support the site, and I'm sure after a while with the possibility of ads etc we'd be self-sustaining :)

If anyone seriously wants to consider it, PM me with ideas - I'm happy to go ahead with it if nothing can be resolved :)

Chris

I'm all for it, Chris..im sure either a nice sized semi-dedicated server or a dedicated one might be whats needed down the road (meaning two weeks, lmao). I don't mind chipping in for whatever ya folks choose.

Well if you believe that it wont be much of a cost then that's really good!
You'll be doing the community a big favor!! :D
I wish I could help but I'm a university student (not sure how it's called with 1 word) so I don't have much money :(

I'm in as well...via either financial, time and/or advertising or all three :)

$$ doesn't make a hacker/hack better. If someone sucks at support they'll suck whether people pay them or not. There's plenty of companies out there right now to prove this. Just because someone gets paid doesn't mean they'll be good at customer service or supporting their product. The problems with trying to get owners to service their products will continue whether its free or not. Hopefully the good/reputable coders can get a site together and manage it well as to avoid these problems, but without moderation I just see most coders trying to put out as much as they can, as fast as they can. Its the whole idea of getting the most $$ while doing as little as you can (time investment with support/bug fixes).

Anyways, my suggestions for you coding gurus (if you do end up working together on a site) is to moderate heavily and set quality and support standards.

Easytarget, I have to disagree. Personally I have noticed a significant difference in the quality and the support of paid hacks.
There are hacks out there that are of very good quality and free but they are a minority. Most free hacks are significantly worse than paid ones, and that is quite logical. I don;t blame the coders about that! In fact I need to say thanks about releasing so useful hacks for free. Some features don't need to be paid cause they are too small. For a major addition however I would prefer a paid hack.
Btw does anyone know a good paid downloads manager? :nervous: :p