I'm referring to .com
yeah, and so could microsoft. but the chances that jelsoft would disappear vs a guy that releases a hack at .org is slim to none.

Great post Chris M.. i agree completely.

I have no problem paying for hacks. In fact, I have purchased them before.
However, what I dislike is seeing a link to a paid version suddenly appear at the top of an free (and generally unfinished) beta soon after people help iron out the bugs in the product.

The coders definitely have the right to sell anything they want for as much money as they want.. but its how some of them go about it that irks me


On the flip side, I can understand why many want to move onto paid hacks. I am constantly astonished at the audacity some people have on the forum in regards to the free hacks that are made available to them.

They +++++ when a hack isnt exactly like how they want it, demand and expect support for every hack, give your hack a low rating if they don't agree with something, etc.

MarcoH64's Private Message Workbench comes to mind... his hack has a warning built in that let forum users know that their PMs could be read when his hack was installed. There is nothing wrong with that.. and truthfully it should be disclosed if you are going to actively read your members PMs.

However, some members felt they had to go out of their way to complain and give his hack 2 stars or under because they disagreed with that policy.
SomethingAwful comes to mind :)

Well I'm new to the community here, but long time coder.
I won't post my corporation site do to the fact that I posted a commercial product earlier today and it was deleted. (no harm no foul)
I just wanted to say while that post was up i recieved over 70 hits from this site alone within the one hour that post was up.
Already I have many interested in the product.
Now i don't know if there is any affiliation between vbulletin .com and .org but if this is a place for add on's for vbulletin, it is by far the best place I have seen.
As a corporate owner and seeing how fast and how many hits I got from just an hour from one post show's me alot about this website.
Commercial or not, this site for addons, hacks etc.. would NATURALLY be the ultimate vb resource, I'm not saying it's not already because it obviously is since it's the first thing that would pop up on any search engine.
If you were to combine the awesome power of commercial and free, this site in general would be the hottest spot on the web for vb resources and it will remain that way now and forever.
These are just my opinions and not to be taken cold heartedly.
I enjoyed reading this thread and this thread could be the opening to a brighter future for vbulletin.org.

Thanks

The transition from "hobbyist" to "professional" is something vBulletin.Org has yet to embrace.

I suspect there is a good market for Professionals who can provide premium mods and services, maybe someone can build and promote a vbprofessionals.com website to facilitate the conversion.

Interestingly enough, a project like that would probably actually be a revenue producer since income means a willingness to pay for promotion.

I am going to have to state from personal experience that this is not the case. I made a thread about my client management system that im working on and said I will be releaing a lite version of it that will basicly function as an address book. Yet the thread got removed within an hour.

@ The Geek - Boofo might be old but he is wiley. ;)

There are currently no threads in the deleted items forum started by you.

I can confirm this :)

Chris

This would have been quite some time ago. When I was first getting the idea together and asking for feedback on the idea and for more ideas and stuff people would like to see in it.

I am already in the works of doing my own thing on my site which will be a general php training and reference site including detailed training for many scripts available and my products and so much more.

We have threads in there dating back to early 2001, so if something had been posted it would still be there. We keep records of everything we delete incase a situation like this comes up.

Perhaps you posted it on vBulletin.com?

Interesting. Oh well.

Im not really wanting to rehash this anyway. I was just saying I have seen it done to other hacks.


This convo is supposed to be about paid hacks.

You are the one that brought that particular element of the paid hack conversation up, if memory serves ;)

Chris

: popcorn :

I said we cant even talk about them somebody else mention a few hacks and I commented on a staff comment.

Hello everyone,

This has certainly become a very engaging discussion. With that said, the Crawlability team has been reviewing and discussing this thread, and I would like to offer some insights into our vision for a potential solution.

vBulletin.org - The Definitive Portal for Everything vB
We believe that there should definitely be a place for both FOC and commercial hacks here. Although some have suggested that a better approach would be to use an alternative forum, vbulletin.org really is the #1 resource for information on vBulletin, and we think it should remain a centralized portal for all development projects.

Resources, Support & Learning Environment
The goal for vb.org should be to make as many resources available to vB users as possible all in one centralized location (free or paid), to foster an environment of learning & mentor driven support, and to encourage developers of FOC and premium hacks to continue publishing and supporting their works here. It IS possible to achieve all of this, but it may well take a modification of the forum business model that is used here.

Having FOC and commercial hacks co-existing here does not mean that vb.org will no longer be an environment for learning. In fact, it will just further serve to solidify vbulletin.org's position as the leading resource for research, development, and discussion of vB.

Jelsoft Encourages 3rd Party Development
Premium styles and hacks are of great benefit to the vb.org community and to Jelsoft. The existence of such great products, in addition to the FOC alternatives, helps to re-inforce Jelsoft's leading forum position with vBulletin. The recently released developer API for 3.5.x shows that Jelsoft recognizes this value and is committed to supporting 3rd party development. This makes right now, the perfect time to revise vb.org's policies in order to create a home for the many great commercial styles and hacks that are available - for the benefit of all.

Commercial Necessity for Premium Hacks
Obviously the commercial aspect is a huge stumbling block with a wide divide in user opinion as expressed here and in previous threads on the topic. However, without a doubt, for top quality vB add ons to be developed, a commercial aspect is an absolute necessity.

The Need for Premium Hacks
If the statistic is accurate that 90-95% of all vBulletin users do not modify their installations, then one could argue that it shows an even greater need for premium hacks to be showcased here. These predominantly non-technical users will generally not be well suited to attempting to install FOC hacks with limited to no support (depending on the availability of the developer and others who help out in the release forum):

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....&postcount=120


Time is Scarce - Developer's are Limited to 168 Hours a Week
For starters, we commend the many developers who provide FOC hacks, support, and information sharing within the threads here. Their part-time commitment is extraordinary given that they (in most cases) also have to schedule time for their careers, families, & sleep within the 168 hours we all have available each week.

Alternative Compensation Models
Even without having a designated commercial forum or directory provided here, there are ways for commercial developers to be compensated for their work.

As Wayne Luke suggested, we also agree that a developer is and should be entitled to charge for support. Serious forum admins who see the benefit of installing a particular hack understand the value of the developer's time and will pay an appropriate fee for installation and/or support services, etc.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....2&postcount=37
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....2&postcount=43
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....&postcount=120


The Value of Development & Consulting
Those of you who are professional analysts, programmers, and consultants, etc. are aware of the high value of your services with systems integration and development firms typically billing out at an hourly rate of in excess of $100/hr. Hanif touches nicely on the subject in this thread.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....3&postcount=50


In fact, some consultants (part-time or otherwise) have successfully leveraged their expert knowledge of vB and hack installation to make their services available to other non-technical forum admins. So they can generate revenue even without developing their own hacks, provided that they are regarded as experienced developers within the vb.org community.

Software Projects - The Difficulty Involved
We believe that there is a critical mass for all large projects in which maintaining and supporting them becomes almost impossible without implementing a fee structure.

Various contributing developers here may choose to help with support of a particular FOC hack; however, those of you familiar with software development know that managing any software project is extremely difficult throughout the various stages of the dev cycle including inception, requirements management, design, development, testing, documentation, maintenance, & support, etc. This has to be accounted for, hence the necessity of charging for premium hacks.

Buy vs. Build Decisions
Detomah touches briefly on the issue of buy vs. build:
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....2&postcount=19

Ultimately regardless of whether going commercial is a popular choice among the community or not, everyone has 2 choices: (a) buy it, or (b) build it. In reality, there is a 3rd choice: (c) don't use it.

Evaluation Criteria
Whether you select option (a), (b), or (c) depends on a number of factors, not limited to:

• Are you aware of all solutions that can help you achieve your need or desire?
• Can you build it yourself? What is the cost/time/difficulty involved?
• Can you get someone to build it for free? Will they support it? What is the cost of support?
• Do you absolutely need it? Will it help to grow your forum, or increase your revenue? Will you see an ROI? Could you live without it?
• Are there any risks associated with proceeding? Do you have a mitigation strategy or contingency plan?
• Will it improve your forum significantly or are you purely motivated by desire or entertainment value? If so, (once again) can you live without it?
• Are you missing out on a great opportunity by not obtaining the solution for your forum?

Evaluate each offering with the above criteria along with your own and you should be able to make an informed decision about how to proceed. But, you need to be aware of all solutions available to you (including commercial) in order to make an informed evaluation and decision.

Our Experience
We do not take any of the criticism we have received personally. Within any community there is diversity of thought. We take the negative with a grain of salt, just as we do our positive feedback. Just as Erwin noted, we can at least try our best to keep the discussions civil. In our particular instance, we believe we were handled fairly:

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....9&postcount=83

Suggestion on Alternative Compensation Models
While vb.org will not likely provide free commercial listings, any commercial hack developer should expect and be willing to pay any advertising costs associated with promoting a product here at vb.org. Hopefully, the cost will be set at a level that does not prevent the developer from seeing an ROI.

Existing Business Models for Commercial Developers
There are various alternatives within the existing framework for commercial developers. The most obvious is leveraging exposure from FOC hacks they develop in order to get some exposure for their own fourms where they have a chance to generate revenue from donations, sales of their products/services, joint venture promotion or affiliate programs, and/or AdSense, etc. Most of the premium developers here are well aware of this and do so. It is well within the site rules and noone complains. So, we commercial developers are not completely without a presense here provided that we give something back to the community such as free hacks or posting support and/or other resources within the various threads.

What are some Potential Alternatives for Commercial Promotion at vb.org?

• Paid hack release threads
• Paid directory listings
• Google AdSense (allowing commercial developers to advertise here via a 3rd party - i.e. Google)
• Google AdSense (ad earning sharing)

Note: DigitalPoint has a very interesting method of compensating members who have AdSense accounts by providing them with a % of AdSense revenue for the threads in which they participate. This could be used as a good incentive for free hack developers to continue publishing and supporting their work here. But, obviously, it requires vb.org to start running AdSense, which may very well be a non-negotiable issue for the vb.org moderating team.

Encourage Free Hack Development with Monthly Cash Prizes for Top Hacks/Top Support
It is amazing what someone will do when they feel appreciated. If vB.org were to develop a small revenue channel from paid commercial listings, AdSense, donations, etc, such a contest could be facilitated.

It encourages better development and support as developers strive to achieve the recognition. It also compensates those (in a small way) who produce the best FOC hacks and/or support each month. The model already works exceptionally well in other mediums. Consider the following:

Google Code Jam 2005
http://www.topcoder.com/pl/?&module=...05&d2=overview

The X Prize
http://www.xprizefoundation.com/

Other Ideas?
Hopefully, if nothing else, we helped to get your creative juices running. If there is another alternative available, please post it to the discussion so that we can find a mutually satisfactory solution for everyone.

Your Feedback
Thank-you to everyone for providing feedback representative of both sides, including The Geek for starting a great discussion. And thank-you all for giving us a platform to share our insights into this issue. I hope that the vb.org moderators are able to use this feedback to find a mutually beneficial solution for everyone. :rolleyes:

I am desperately trying to figure this issue out. I will ignore the above hate filled post for a sec.

The coders here are few, so I would like to address them as a singular body for the purposes of what I have to say. Coder, do you remember when you released your first FOC hack? Why did you do it? For the overall good of fellow VBers, for recognition, for an avenue to a later commercial product? Well, other than the last did you realise your goal?

As Steve Machol said most of us non-coders rarely modify our boards. The board costs a lot of money and comes really nice out of the box. When we use a hack we want it to do exactly what it says. Again, we are not coders, kudos to those that are, even more kudos to those who provide easy to understand installation instructions. When I can afford it I sometimes give them donations. Some months with all of my bills I only eat ramen and drink cheap Walmart cola. That is why the above post reminds me of why I left phpBB: the arrogant, rude and self important snits. I rarely seek support for hacks, I do not badger the hackers. I do think that obsolete or abandoned hacks should be removed to keep some newbie board owner from making a mess of their board.

From what I have seen most of the coders here have no problem releasing and supporting hacks FOC, it is the loud assed minority here who are raising the stink. VB.org allows coders to provide board owners FOC and it should stay that way. Were it to ever change, I am one of the many orgers that will just go quietly away.

You know another down side to allowing people to profit off of this community is you are in a sense taking away from those who do offer FOC code.

As it stands this is a community based on sharing. Charging is not sharing it is to better ones pocket book.

Why would any FOC coder even bother to help a community where those who prosper are not the ones contributing free?

What makes .org so useful and so popular is the free work that is posted on it, so those who charge would be benefiting off those who share freely. I know myself if such an action comes to be I would not release anything.

Here's my two cents...

A developer releases a kill hack here. Many people install it and it becomes instrumental to their sites. They request feature after feature. It becomes a kill hack, but the guy who released it now spends 20 hours or more a week maintaining his releases.

There is NOTHING WRONG with him deciding that the amount of time his code now requires means it has to be pay-for-use. He's not a bad guy at all, nor is he any more greedy than the people who have been using his code for free but demaned long hours from him for no compensation. It is a natural evolution.

There is nothing wrong with someone who makes personal decision that his releases will all be free. When his killer app takes off, he makes the opposite decision. The code is "as is" and he can no longer support it. (See Inferno RSS Feed hack for an example).

For the end user, it can be a bust either way. We can becoem dependent on a hack that never matures because it becomes a support nightmare. Or we can pay for code that ends up being short lived. Its crap shoot. If you don't like either choice, buy a PHP book and roll your own.

In the specific case of TheGeek, his stuff is quality. I have no problem paying for it in the hopes it will continue to be.

As for VB.Org and commercial software, I really wish that either VB.Org or VB.Com would maintain a list of VB integrated software and add-ons. More than that, allow us to review them and rate them. I want to know what works with VB and what doesn't. I want to know which ones are good and which ones aren't.

I don't see an information source as advertising. I see it as yet another service this site could provide.

Commercial products == you get what you pay for.
Free products == you get what you download.

You have to pay microsoft when you buy windows os.
You have to pay software companies when you buy software.
It's a continous chain event.

Now I know that people crack software and release it for the public to download for free and that's the software vendor's fault. I remember one application which took over a year to crack but i can't remember what it was.

As for my product it is encoded with Ioncube with a backup license system.
IonCube has never and in my opinion won't be cracked for a long long time.
Heck, the white house uses it.

As far as I see things in difference between free and commercial, is support, updates, and size. Yes size is a huge difference, my addon filesize is larger than vbulletin and vbadvanced put togeather, it's huge.

This was to a post from page 9 or 10 can't remember but oh well.

Oh and vBSEO, very well put, my thoughts exactly.

FASherman also very well put.
I can see .org growing beyond what their eyes can see, and that's not an attack or anything personal, but can't you see the potential?

Okay its people like you that are pissing me off here. You call us the minority when we were the ones who helped form this site. We work hard on our work. We are stepping things up to another level. We are no longer just able to spent the time on the stuff as we used to. We are making professional grade things and making things that some proble never expected to see. In my case im bringing some very high end commercial products that will be bigger then vbulletin itself.

You think that just becuase you dont badger us that means everybody else doesnt. vb.org is growing the community is changing. It is getting harder then ever to support hacks becuase there is more of a demand. We have more people that dont know what there doing that can break even some of the most simple things at time and we work to help them yet it eats at more and more of our time. Without being able to released our paid mods here our foc ones may cease to exist as time goes on.

I have said this many times. By releasing my paid mods and selling them it helps to support my foc ones. Since im not stuck spending as much time doing custom project developement.

I agree with you somewhat. I dont feel that the full thing should be encoded. Doing that destroys the development community. Becuase huge addons always have alot of room to have their own addons.

I know my very huge commercial things will be most unencoded but will have some of the core stuff that will be needed for it to work that wont ever need to be changed by hackers encoded with liscense check systems and a few other things.

That way they cant simple just remove the encoded part becuase it will kill the system. Im planning a pretty high tech security system for my products.

Reason im investing all this time to have my stuff so that it can be modified is becuase of the fact that my modifications will be so big they will have addons and possible even addons for the addons.

Since, as I have understood the problem that the org staff is having with paid releases is that they don't want to give free advertising to the coders that have gone commercial because they are afraid that they wont give back to the community, then why don't you make a permission system, for example:
- allow only an advanced coder to post about commercial hacks. This way it will be certain that the guy has offered a lot to the community already, so this is a way of saying "thanks". :)
- restrict the number of commercial hacks an A.C. can post about to e.g. 1 commercial hack every 2 FOC hacks. The hacks that gave him the advanced coder title won't count. Fair enough, isn't it? ;)

I second the a, b, c ideology that Juan brought up.
(a) buy it
(b) build it
Or alternatively,
(c) don't use it.

i still think it would be best to form a completely different site from vbulletin.org, i do think commercial interaction could further corrupt/deterierate the community we have all strived so hard for.

This place will be fine and I'm sure the current rules can be used to anyone's advantage without corrupting the site. I think things work well right now and will continue to.

Damned if I didn't try otherwise! :o

Who is this? :p

eXtremeTim,

It's not all encoded, just the integration for the license. :)

good :)

Then I fully agree with you

And it is people like you that are pissing me off. You make generalities about the few and apply them to the whole.

I do not have a problem with allowing you to link to a site where you have some hack of mad skillz for sale, but you cannot garner any support from the people who would actually buy the stuff--non-coders--if you seek to debase them. VB.org is for FOC coders and board owners who do not have a big digit bank account.

Here's a solution:

1. Release your hack FOC. Make sure you signify that you will support as time is available.
2. Charge a fee for your hack on your own site, link to this site in your sig (pretty sure that is allowed here. If not we all are breaking the rules).

Ermm where exactly is that written cause I probably missed it. :rolleyes:

Then why would somebody buy the hack and not download it from here? :rolleyes:

@all, we really need to chill and discuss this in a civil and cool manner. ;)

Oh well, I'll just do up a sort of resource directory on my site now for free listings of all commercial vbulletin resources ( user submitted, pending approval ).
* whips out Crimson editor, gimme a day or 2

Mayhap, you are not looking hard enough.



It may help you to re-read what I have written.

Your words are kind of scorchy. They wouldn't be flame incognito, eh?

Hello, cinq. It is good to see you around, m8. Wondered where you had gotten off to.

Oh yes I am. I never found an instance of the rule that you claimed.

I did and it still looks stupid (no offense mate, but that's what I thought about it). In fact you are suggesting that he releases his hacks for free and only charge for support. Well, the guy OBVIOUSLY doesn't want to release his hacks for free, and personally I think he's right. Some hacks just don't deserve being released for free. You can't put days or even months of coding in a hack to make it perfect and full of features and release it for free. I've seen a significant difference in paid hacks in terms of quality, support, bugs.

Why would somebody flame you? :rolleyes::laugh:

Please everyone refrain from making this thread turn violent. I'm sure we can all have a mature debate without any arguements breaking out...:)

In fact, your very reply above shows your very own stupidity. I have always heard it is unwise to argue with a fool, so ignore is the place for your type.

I am trying, m8, but some people just don't know how to debate without arguing. It is easy if you cannot defeat someone's argument to just twist it around. In any regard I have her on ignore.

This has been said to many times already. We will not let the few spoil it for the rest of the guys that are conducting themselves properly in this thread.

Please think before you post, or you may find that your posting rights have been removed for a peroid of time decided by the staff.

Please don't make us have to go down that road.

I just bought a brand free version of your cart Geek...woohoo ;) :banana:

Why is it the only ones who can see any benefit for allowing paid hacks here are those wishing to make a quick buck? If you really "care" about the users here as most of you claim, why is making the almighty dollar such a big issue? You seem to be doing all right selling your stuff on other sites, why do you need to use the org to beneift yourselves even more?

You all claim that you need to be compensated for all of your "hard work". There are others here that have done some very good hacks that have never asked for anything monitary in return. Do you really believe they have less hours in the day than all of you do? They have families/jobs, etc., too.

One major hack that comes to mind is Lesane's Store Hack. That was quite a big project for a long time and I don't rememeber once him even thinking about going commercial with it. And I know he spent as much time, if not more, supporting and updating that hack than any of you do, no matter how wonderful you think your commercial addons are.

This place has really changed from the old days. Most of you think it has gotten better, but in reality, it has gone the other way. There is more fighting and complete disrespect for one another now as individuals here than there ever was before. We didn't have the problems of users demanding like they do now. We all worked together for a common goal, and that goal was never about money.

Just because a user "pays" for a hack, doesn't mean the support will be there any more than it is for the free ones. As a matter of fact, chances are it will be the "get the money and run" sort of thing. Why should you care about supporting anything when you altready have the money in hand? And without naming names or hacks, it has happened many times in the past here. all commercial hacks here are gonna do, besides making the author more money, is make it even more of a headache for everyone here with threads full of the "I bought a hack and now they have disappeared" type posts that we have all seen too many of in the past.

I, myself, will never be a part of anything that makes the org "commercialized", unless it is strictly impoosed (as Wayne has said in the past) and adhered to with an iron fist. If you commercial authors want to make money off the org, then expect the be doing something in return. If you are going to bring this place down, it should cost you.

Sorry, guys/gals, but I needed to get that off my chest. And 2 quarts really does help make that happen. ;)

Sorry if I offended anyone, but it is getting almost rediculous now.

Well said, Boofo.

I agree with it getting ridiculous, so I will not add anything more.

Bob, I have never released a paid hack and don't intend to do so. I have done custom work, but have no desire to write something and sell it to the masses.

But, I think that this site could benefit by selling banner space to people who write paid modifications. But, as I said before, that's Jelsoft's decision to make.

Amy

Yes, it could definately benefit someone, but not so much Jelsoft (whom would have to put up with the headaches from the ones that DO skip out with the money and run) as much as the commercial authors that would be preying on unsuspecting users. I agree, there probably wouldn't be many of them that do that, but all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch, right? Have we not learned anything in the past from all of this?

And, Amy, I didn't say you ever did release any code to be paid for. I was very careful not to mention any names or hacks in my post. I've learned that much in my 150 years on earth. ;)

I was responding to this quote:

I do see the benefit for the community. TAZ has banners similar to what I am suggesting. They also have non-biased discussions in the forums about products that are advertised. I have not seen problems there.

I just think that information for board owners is important. There are some damn good paid mods out there, and I think allowing them to be advertised here would be a benefit to the professional board owners who aren't looking to spend hours tweaking their sites.