I've never been into religion, and don't believe in it, but I understand the basis and principles of where it comes from. Here is my 2 cents: (this is my opinion, and although I might sound like I’m confident of the following theory (because I am), you are of course entitled to believe and express a difference in opinion, and I will respect it).

In the ancient times mankind was notoriously brutal, greedy and sinful (we know this by looking into Medieval times, Roman era, Egyptian, etc.). The good people who existed sought peace, and hope to live through life without such violence and crimes. So, religion was created, as a way to "moderate" society and give hope to the people.

In most religions two forms of an afterlife generally exist, from that most of us know as heaven and hell. The depiction of hell was so engraved in teachings and church as the worst place anyone could ever imagine, for example the book Dante's Inferno, that it set concrete morals in the mind of people to rid themselves of committing sins and to behave in society. Heaven was described as purely paradise, but could only be accessed after death if one was pure and ridden of evil sins, so this controlled society to be less criminal as well.

That's my perception on religion, mainly just a way to control society from immoral criminal actions, and give people faith and hope of a successful life if they do no sins and acknowledge god.

Of course today we don't have a perfect world ridden from immoralities, but as religion progressed and spread throughout the course of history, society has become much more civilized.

So those of us who don't believe in religion, we do have reason to be thankful for its existence, and not living in a corrupted world like the Dark Ages.

Now, though, I believe society is to an extent where we can back off from religious affiliations due to our well adaptation of principles and good morals brought by religion, but this wont take into effect for who knows how long, if ever.

Sorry if this seems lengthy, I get into debates all too well, being we have very mature debates (on politics, etc.) held at my forum all the time, just filled with lengthy opinions.

that arguement doesn't quite hold water for me. despite this "invention" of christianity that you talk about - thousands of christians were persecuted and killed in roman times, for following God. How is this an example of an invention of peace.

how do you invent religion over a course of 1600 years. you may invent a way to present the material, but 40 authors from different times in ancient days is quite a "hoax/invention" to coordinate. i think it's scary for a lot of people to look at how much historical documentation and truth there is in the bible. hundreds of biblical events coordinate historically. Hundreds of biblical people are found in historical and geneologies. It's just scary for some of you so you simply use today's logic or your own scared minds to create an answer.

How can you say "if you want to say something isn't reliable, try your history books...which vary edition to edition....country to country" and in the same breath say "no document has been translated more closely than the bible"? The bible is like a history book. What makes you think it is any more reliable than any other history book?

Interesting bumpage of thread :)

*watches*

- miSt

Here's a juicy conundrum: there are many religions in the world, and each one has their own deity/deities. Therefore, they can't all be right. Which ones are wrong?

The one they don't support ;) ^^

...well first of all, as I did mention before it was translated and passed down in much different manor than history books. Translators who mistook even 1 word would begin again.

...second, the bible itself speaks for not only its accuracy but it's divine nature. Long before "science" could prove these things, the bible said:

- The shape of the earth
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers.

- The earth is suspended in nothing
"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job. 26:7, NIV).

- The Stars are Innumerable
"He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be" (Gen. 15:5, NIV).

The Existence of Valleys in the Seas
"The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils" (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV).

The Existence of Springs and Fountains in the Seas
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened" (Genesis 7:11, NIV). See also Gen. 8:2; Prov. 8:28.

The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas
"O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas" (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV).

The Hydrologic Cycle
"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job. 26:8, NIV).
"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job. 36:27-28, NIV)
"The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7, NIV).

The Concept of Entropy
"In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded" (Psalm 102:22-26, NIV).

The Nature of Health, Sanitation, and Sickness
The listing for this section is too large for this page. But the scriptural references are Leviticus 12-14.

How would this knowledge be even remotly possible??!!

next...

there are thousands more New Testament Greek manuscripts than any other ancient writing. The internal consistency of the New Testament documents is about 99.5% textually pure. That is an amazing accuracy. In addition there are over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic languages. The total supporting New Testament manuscript base is over 24,000.

The fact is that the Bible has not been rewritten. Take the New Testament, for example. The disciples of Jesus wrote the New Testament in Greek and though we do not have the original documents, we do have around 6,000 copies of the Greek manuscripts that were made very close to the time of the originals. These various manuscripts, or copies, agree with each other to almost 100 percent accuracy. Statistically, the New Testament is 99.5% textually pure. That means that there is only 1/2 of 1% of of all the copies that do not agree with each other 100%. But, if you take that 1/2 of 1% and examine it, you find that the majority of the "problems" are nothing more than spelling errors and very minor word alterations. For example, instead of saying Jesus, a variation might be "Jesus Christ." So the actually amount of textual variation of any concern at all is extremely low. Therefore, we can say that we have an extremely accurate compilation of the original documents.

filburt - that's an often asked question.

There are such things as absolute truths

If truth is relative, then the statement that truth is relative is an absolute truth and would be self defeating statement by proving that truth is not relative. But, if truth is absolute, then the statement "truth is absolute" is true and not self defeating. It is true that truth exists. It is true that truth will not contradict itself as we have just seen. In fact, it is absolutely true that you are reading this post
If we can see that there is such a thing as truth in the world, then we could also see that there can be spiritual truth as well. It is not absurd to believe in spiritual absolutes anymore than physical or logical absolutes. Even the statement that all religions lead to God is a statement held to be a spiritual absolute by many people. This simply demonstrates that people do believe in spiritual truth. Why? Because truth exists. However, not all that is believed to be true actually is true. Therefore, all belief systems cannot be true since they often contradict each other in profound ways.

Religions contradict each other; therefore, they cannot all be true.

Mormonism teaches that there are many gods in existence and that you can become a god. Christianity teaches that there is only one God and you cannot become a god. Islam teaches that Jesus is not God in flesh where Christianity does. Jesus cannot be both God and not God at the same time. Some religions teach that we reincarnate while others do not. Some teach there is a hell and others do not. They cannot all be true. If they cannot all be true, it cannot be true that all religions lead to God. Furthermore, it means that some religions are, at the very least, false in their claims to reveal the true God (or gods). Remember, truth does not contradict itself. If God exists, He will not institute mutually exclusive and contradictory belief systems in an attempt to get people to believe in Him. God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that there can be an absolute spiritual truth and that not all systems can be true regardless of whether or not they claim to be true. There must be more than a mere claim.

When one tries to stress the "truth" of christianity, the best observations can be made through the prophetic events in the bible. Events foretold int he bible long before they took place.

my next post will contain all prophecy fullfilled

There are over 700 biblical prophecies that were predicted in previous scripture and fullfilled later in scripture. I have them all, for anyone interested, but i'd rather not type 700.

For those in need of recent prophetic proof - JUST LOOK AT ISRAEL! It had been said they would never be a nation again, and yet they became one in 1948 - just as the bible said.

What should be known is there are more than twice the amount of passages prophetically speaking of the Lord's second return than there were of his first return. If God/The bible has held true for every prophetic word it utters - that should be a riveting realization that the second return of christ is the most prophecised event in the entire bible.

I wasn't being specific on any religion, but if you want to use Christianity as an example, that's fine. Though, my post was only about the principles of a religion for existing, but not of multiple religions in one world. Initial starters of a religion, such as Christianity, probably never foresaw that other people would make variations of their religion or create their own. Because more than one religion exists, clashes between what is right or wrong arise. When Europeans settlers and missionaries went to Africa to control the land and spread their faith of religion, it brought thousands of angry Africans tempered at the whites for trying to dislodge their beliefs and faiths that have lasted for many generations.

It's this war of religion that, as you put to example, made Romans persecute thousands of Christians, or Hitler exterminate thousands of Jews, or this everlasting war between Palestine and Israel.

Anyway, that last post of mine didn't contain the factor of more than one religion, but just one existent and the principles it applies to create a goodwill society. When more than one is involved, then trouble exists, and we know this by wars throughout history.

yes. i thougt i covered the concept of truth though. and the word "Religion" should probably be better defined. christianity is a belief in jesus christ and the bible - not a belief in a series of rules or regulations.

Interesting thread...

Basicly from what I've been reading so far I agree with what sunzfan has posted. Just like the war example earlier, how do you know George Washington really existed? You don't. The same applies with ANY religion - you can't be 100 percent sure any God exists under any religion... just as Erwin pointed out earlier.

As for Boofo's comment pointing out that the Bible was written by 12 drunk men, I agree with sunzfan classifying it has the most retarded statement he's ever read.... (and FWIW, he wasn't insulting anybody, Filburt. Boofo was the one with the insulting statement. All sunzfan said was that statement was retarded)

This is all I'm going to post for now... I've got to run, but you can count that I'll keep be keeping up with this thread now...

lol, thank god for vbulletin.org :P *cough* its a godsend no pun :P

as for religion, each to their own,

if god is there, and your a good person, ITS ALL GOOD, if he isn't you die, poof your gone, no more playing with vbulletin.org ...

nuff said :P

haha. if it were only that simple. don't matter if you're a good person or not. nothing we've done on this earth can ever be good enough - which is why we needed the personal attonment of Jesus Christ. So to re-word,

if God through grace, sent a perfect person, then IT'S ALL GOOD

Cary, what I said was that the Bible was supposedly written by the 12 apostles (or disciples as the wife just pointed out and she also pointed out that they only wrote part of the bible, so I stand corrected on that part. My articulation is a little off at times). But in those days they drank a lot of wine and that is what I was referring to. I did not insult anyone in this thread. I just stated my beliefs. So retarded is still a wrong word to use just because I don't adhere to your beliefs.

As far as George Washinton goes, I tend to believe that a little more than translating a language that has been obsolete for so many years and has been translated in too many different ways already. Plus the bible is full of contradictions, (i.e. "Thou shall not kill" and "an eye for an eye"). And how many of you have posted on a Sunday. The 10 Commandments?

Okay.

Think again!

Just making sure you understand... he didn't call you retarded - he called the statement retarded... which is only an opinion.

Usually people who say 'The Bible is full of contradictions' don't even make an effort to read the Bible at all. Do a little reading and you'll see in the Old Testament times Moses instructed the people with "An Eye for an Eye" to prevent retribution and revenge. During those times people were killing other people in revenge for other acts (of lesser value) to them.

Moses then said, ?If you must have revenge, let it be no more than what was done to you.? "Eye for an Eye" wasn't for personal revenge, but through the courts in those days.

What has this got to do with anything?

Stating an opinion is different than insulting. Calling someone's opinions or beliefs retarded because they differ from your own, that's insulting. You need to think again.

Read the above statement.

Okay, since my wife's father is an ordained Minister in the Methodist church, I'll give you some examples I got from her, that she learned from him and from reading the Bible while growing up. If you take the King James version of the Bible and compare it to the Living Bible, there are instances over and over again where words are changed and the meaning is completely different, depending on the version. There is evidence that entire chapters and even books have been omitted from the original because they were not found until after the first publication of the Bible was printed. Another example of contradictions is slavery. In biblical times people were encourage to keep slaves, but in today's society you would be arrested for doing so.

If this was through the courts in those days, then why is anyone against the death penalty as a punishment for murder? Isn't that an eye for an eye? You took someones life so the court will take yours?

One of the commandments is "You shall honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy." Working, cooking, cleaning etc. are forbidden on the Sabbath because it is a day of rest. In modern times orthodox christians do not even answer their phones or let their children watch television or play computer games on Sunday and I fail to see that posting messages on the internet is any different from that.

One final note, prove to me, if you can, that the Bible wasn't written by 12 drunks sitting around the table. You cannot prove that anymore than you can that it was written by more than forty people over many years time. People write novels in todays times that are longer than the Bible was, some in as few as 6 months, all by themselves. So it's not impossible for even one person to have written the Bible if you really want to get down to being able to prove anything. The Bible is basically a belief, if you choose to believe, then the Bible is for you, but as you get older, and you've been around a bit and you've seen people die in war, and you've caused some of those deaths yourself, you start to question God in all his infinite wisdom. If he's all so powerful, why does he allow it to happen to some people and not to others? Why, when we came back from Vietnam, was it so easy for people of the church to forgive us for what we had to do over there? If I had done the same thing here, I doubt very seriously I would have been forgiven by anybody. You explain that one. :)

umm... it was an opinion. (both yours and sunzfan's) - but if you find sunzfan's post offensive, keep in mind, whether you realize it or not, I find your post offensive.

Could you send me some examples, please?

Please reread what I posted two posts above this one.

The Bible emphasizes that the requirement to keep the Sabbath is no longer nessecary. When Jesus died on the Cross he saved us from our sins.

Ephesions 2:13-15Colossians 2:14-16
Once again, here you go offending people again...

Once again, it all comes down to faith. You cannot prove that George Washington existed.

As for your last comments:

God doesn't make us have problems just for the heck of it. Most "bad" things which happen do so because God gives a underlying freedom to His people - we are free people, not puppets on a string. He doesn't cause bad things to happen. He loves us and grieves with us.

I've got to run at the moment, however, if you would like for me to elaborate a bit more on this later, let me know.

No, I'm done. This is why I don't like to debate religion or politics. I won't in the future. Too many people think they know more than they really do about both subjects. It's all yours now.

Tell me about it... ;)