Nothing wrong with telling people that if they really want help there is a surchage esp when you are a busy person.

It was not eactly that i was addressing, Zachery. i think it is odd that we have vbulletin people here. Lord knows it cost us out the wazoo to buy a vbulletin, and now we have them here helping others to charge us more.

Each hour that the add-on developers spend on this forum costs them money. Their bills are not free. Maybe you live in an utopian society where you do not need to pay for clothing, housing, food, water, medical, school and other basic needs. However, most of us do not. We have to balance philantrophic issues such as supporting this site and making it available at no cost with other real world issues such as those listed above.

This is not about being greedy. It is how the real world works and not everything in life is free. I am sorry that some people continue to refuse to see this but that is the way it is. Either use the channels provided here for free and respect the add-on authors wishes or expect to pay money for what you want. This is the same economy that has been in effect on this planet for the last 10,000 years and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

I see expecting everything on the Internet to be free and for others to slave to your satisfaction as the ultimate expression of greed.

By the way, anyone who approaches me outside of normal vBulletin support channels (support system, vBulletin.com forums, and telephone support) usually gets the same PM from me. I don't need work to intrude on my other interests in life and my family 24 hours a day. As far as having vBulletin staff here, this site is owned and operated by Jelsoft as a community venture. It is maintained by volunteers but all the bills are paid by your license fees.

Plubis, sorry if you feel I was saying all orgers are ogres. That wasn't my intention and I apologize if anyone got that impression.

I can relate to your position (someone who relies on .org for free board modification) and one day you may be able to relate to some others that can become frustrated at times when you release a lot of work and support it here. Its not so simple to 'turn your back' on a hack and to not support it anymore.

Regardless - it wasn't even the intention of this thread. The intention was to try to get you guys to love the guys that CAN donate their time here FOC and not trash the ones that cant anymore.

Love thy coders. :)

I am going to have to fully agree. I will always have some free hacks but my time is very valuable now. I cant go around releasing everything im working on for free. I am working on some comercial grade products now plus my last product is one that will save people in certain situations money and was never even intended to release.

I come up with certain works for my site that I never intend to release and then will sell becuase the demand is there for them. I mean if I were to release all my stuff that we never ment to be released for free then everybodies site would look like mine.

I work hard and am working on a wave of new high quality products some that I havent even released any details on anywhere yet. Is it so wrong that I spend hundreds of hours coding to make sites profitable for people and to be expected to release a script that will give you the power of ebay for free. I think not.

<my 2 cents>Both sides have valid points. As a VB user though I'd prefer to have a good reference for non and commercial hacks. So why not at least have a forum of links to commercial products. I have bought a hack from the Geek and I'm really happy with it. I can't say the same for some of the free hacks but hey you get what you pay for. </my 2 cents>

I got thro that to amy. I have people that come to my site and see changes I have made to a hack and start driving me nuts for it. Like even your hack is brought up lol. They ask me how the hell did I make my spiders show up on my portal lol.

I mean they even come and bug me at my not scripting related site. :(

vBorg is awesome, unfortunately I fall into the category of an untalented user (can't code worth a d*mn) but respect those that can and don't mind compensating someone else to do what I cannot. That said I think that vBorg should maintain true to it's orginal purpose...free mods/hacks. However, a resource listing all paid hacks/paid coders would be an asset as well.

Now where did the guy with the Vodka go...I brought my shot glass along!

I love it how these peeps try to lecture to you about "real life woes and problems."

You know nothing about me, mate, and I do not need your descriptions.

Save your lectures for the annointed. Oh and to be sure that I would never approach you outside normal vbulletin support channels. Maybe my lawyer if he is available, but not me.

Right here, mate. Bottoms up.

Simple economics, a penny for my thoughts

Every developer has some costs that are incurred, for many of us we pay bills, licences and broadband space. Many of us who are board administrators throw in a unreasonable number of hours in maintaining our site. For some the reward is simply the interaction and the pride and joy that comes from maintaining and running a site for free. For others they make a modest income from their site.

Yet lets be honest if your site was really popular and brought in people from far and wide, then how can you balance your life, your family and your job. It really is difficult, from my brief time on the board, I see that no one over here has retired, we are all either working and supporting ourselves and our families.

Even large sites like Yahoo, MSN, MySpace and others have a team of paid staff running their sites. By making money from advertising and other sponsorships they can afford to pay developers to enhance their site in order to draw in more traffic.

And same goes over here, if you want people to come to your site, aside from content alone, there must be ways of bringing in further customers. Maybe some customers simply want a banner on your forum, advertising others of their organisation, how are you going to cater for this?

Now you can craft a hack yourself, or, if like me save time and buy a script. It's as simple as that. For example, in your professional capacity in terms of employment what would you see as your charge out rate??? Maybe for some the hourly rate for their knowledge and experience to others is $50 an hour. Yet if you had to code a script like Geeks how long would it take you?? 10 hours? 15 hours??? Thus basic maths would turn out to be 10(hours) * $50(ones charge out rate) = $500(cost to code script). Thats if you know how to code!!!

Now, can that time be better spent by saving yourself the coding time and buying a script for less than $20? That way I know I am using the time more effectively and can use it elsewhere, above all, I know that by paying the developer s/he too can provide some justification that ok that the hours I spent coding this script I can support my family, pay the bills and so forth.

I am in no way saying I am not appreciative of the quality of free scripts offered here. I am eternally grateful for that. Yet you have to have a balance in life and I think for vb.org to grow we need to understand and appreciate that not everyone can throw in free scripts. Every coder has different demands placed on him/her in terms of life and the economic circumstances they are in.

vBulletin to me is without a shadow of doubt the best forum software out there, and to provide a quality product/service one can only carry this out for so long.

Until someone changes the law of economics or say, we introduce the barter system of trading I can't see why we should not allow commercial developers to advertise their products.

Kindest regards,

Hanif

Guys lets not turn this into a flamewar, you are free to speak your mind but you will not be allowed to insult other members in the process.

Lets get back on topic: Allowing commercial modifications at this site.

I like this guy. I couldnt have said it any better myself.

Man...there are a few "angry .orgers" here :p The bottom line is if someone wants to give you something for free, be greatful and happy and go on. If that same someone decides to stop doing that and charge for their time and work, there's nothing wrong with that and you should say "hey, I got some great stuff from them for free, I sure appreciate that" and leave it at that. As to whether vb.org should provide a conduit for paid scripts/hacks or anything else...they already do...it's called a sig! :banana:

I personally have no issue with any charging for their work, although sadly it is more common then ever in vb, look at it from a stand point of other forum software such as phpbb, vbulletin has the most ?paid? add on resources. But this is due to vb is a paid script so others believe they should profit from it as well, which is fine time is money.

As for them having links on here I think if they want ?promotion? on such a highly traffic community that reaches their base of clients there should be a price, such as must have a free light version (not junk actually useful) posted for free to pay for their adverts :) Because after all you do get what you pay for.

We can? :D

Sorry :nervous:

The sig doesnt really do much. We are limited on sig size so that makes it hard to grab people's attention for your products.

It hasn't been my week. :(

It's better than nothing and I gets lots of traffic from people who have found me through my sig on various sites I belong to.

Its not that we feel we should profit being the reason. Its more like vbulletin is a much more solid script to build things off of and gives us alot more flexibility and control. So we can do more stuff for it. Plus there is more of a drive to make good quality products for it becuase its not a crappy script like phpbb.

I will agree but I feel that we should have a forum where we can link people to them and maybe give a short description even if people cant reply to the threads or anything.

Then why not (if so many who make paid add ons want the section) make the section 'lite' products, this way those who go to them know before hand they are not the full script , you have people seeing your product. And at the same time helping the community with the lite product.

It is a win/win, everyone gets what they want. If someone wants the full product your promotion is right there, your getting customers and paid from the support you give for your lite product, vb.org is getting resources (payment) for the promoting of your script you wish to sell.

First some things you cant make a lite version of. I have a few hacks already that I have looked for a way to make a lite verion of but I just cant becuase to make a like version I still have to give away the heart of it. Which is the valuable part.

Ahem-I was thinking along those lines... lol

And I would agree...but not here at vBorg. I'd be appreciative of a centralized resource with ready access to paid mods and paid coders but think it should be a seperate entity. I'd even be willing to help support such an endeavor but when approaching such a concept of supporting a seperate site you actually vindicate The Geek's position as the supporters of such a project would have to worry about a vB license, domain name, server space, bandwidth, associated expenses not to mention the most basic of questions...would anyone use the site? (I wonder what the odds are of getting a discount on a vB license for such a project).

insane - its becoming more common to find paid vb add ons not because anyone sees dollar signs in their eyes, but because its impossible for many to continue to provide high quality work and support for free. In some cases it actually stifles further development and cause excellent coders to simply say 'cant be asked'.

What gets my goat is the cynical attitude that some users have here when 'commercial' is mentioned (almost always seems to be from those that have 0 to maybe 2 tiny releases here). These guys seem to think there is a bunch of greedy business men salivating for the chance to advertise on .org so they can go buy a new yacht. I can tell you now: There is not a lot of money in selling commercial scripts for vBulletin (maybe unless you are charging over $100 for them and selling them out the wazoo).

As far as the 'to post a commercial hack, you must do a LITE one'. Thats going to be impossible to fulfill. Its not win/win for everyone. Its win/win for those that don't have to write 2 versions of a script for those that will pay and then those that wont. Supporting 2 versions of the same script is even MORE of a nightmare (as I am quickly finding out) and as was previously mentioned - some stuff just doesn't scale to a LITE version.

In my opinion it doesn't make much sense to have 1 site for commercial addons and one for the hobbyists. This is supposed to be the ultimate vb resource, setting up a separate sight for fear that no one will make free add ons anymore is paranoid and defeats the purpose of having a resource center for owners of vBulletin. Heck, there will always be free options. In fact I just stumbled across a couple sites giving away my stuff for free (woot! I'm in the big time now! I'm being pirated!).

Join the club. I have been being pirated since my 3.0.x days. :)

with the few hacks that I released commercially on it.

Its kinda makes you know your makings somethign worth having but is also disheartning to see what your losing from it.

Same as when I put a copyright tag and a link in my hacks and come across sites using my free stuff and have remove the copyright tags.

That really gets me ticked. They cant even leave a simple credit line for a free modification.

True it will be a headache but why give ‘free’ promotion for a ‘paid’ script, yes your making money off of your hard work (as you have the right too never would I say you don’t). But the same product you believe needs pay, it becomes a business / customer based.

This is going to bring many who wish to promote their scripts and bring nothing to the table in return, why should .org do something to help the few and not the community? Remember this is about the community, not the handful who wish to sell a product.

So there should be something in it for the community if people so wish to promote on these forums, it is compromise.

First off the products help the community becuase it gives them even more features to offer. Second off selling my pay addons helps support my free addons.

Also - this is only part of a community because people who require a charge for their time do not have much of a voice here. This is a resource site for vb customers. Im a vb customer and my customers are all vb customers. Instead of gripping on to the past with white knuckles for fear of change, maybe it would be worth a go? It could be just what .org needs. I know as a user for Free and paid add ons (as well as an author for both) it would be refreshing to have a site to find what you are looking for which is often simply not done when its a commercial free zone :)

I think that free is good... but I am always willing to donate.

At the same time Ive downloaded hacks and used them for a week, then got rid of them. Now it may become more of a money pit.

Personally I would really like to see a concentrated resource of paid mods, even if it's in a separate site or not. I know that most times when I pay for a hack it's a quality one and has good support. I have paid for vbadvanced gallery, vbadvanced links and vbadvanced CMPS branding free and haven't regretted for one minute.
I, however get really angry when I see a supposedly free hack that is at paid beta for ages and the free release date is constantly postponed for months and months... If the coder can't release it for free then make it paid and stop the fault promises! It would be more honest!

Your right you are, then perhaps they should allow it with out anything offered to the community free. But if they do choose ?your? route then we need to be fair, let hosting companies promote to if they have a valid vb license (fair is fair and it is a resource of vbulletin users) and lets not forget about web design companies. And while we are at it freelance coders, o0 yes and SEO companies, as long as they have a license they have as much right to promote as you would.

When i first saw the development of so many payed hacks with 3.5 i like many others felt a tiny bit let down(maybe not right word). Part of my choice to go with vbulletin was its vast community whom offered great support and additions to the software. An arcade system, a article system, a RPG/Pet system the list goes on. However now as time has gone on and ive purchased the RPG, Arcade, 3 geek products and countless more items i have changed my outlook on the situation. Im no scripter, me and PHP (bar basic copying) just dont go and therefore i need additional support. With payed subscriptions i get that, i get quality addons at a reasonable price and at the end of the day if im paying for vbulletin why shouldnt i expect to pay for a huge addon to my forum? Thereofre my view is also simillar for what vbulletin.org should now offer. To me its always been the ideal resource zone, the place to enchance my forum and like it or not the age of big addons for free appears to have mainly gone. Its time to adapt and in my view its the sites responsibility as the major resource area to offer its users the infromation on what hacks are out there - Free or for a fee. I dont see the issue of these authors advertising and giving the needed information here, if you dont want to pay dont look at that section of the forum, if you think its too much like i felt for VBSeo dont buy it.. but at least offer the service for those who do.

Thats just my view

I guess no use bumping this thread - I get a new email once a minute lol

The problem with donating is that hardly anybody ever does. They take or work give nothing back. As alot of time consuming questions expect paid quality support, and half the time remove our copyright notices.

Forgetting the paid/free thing for a second, I have to say that Geek hit on something that has bugged me for a while. Reading an author's hack -- and rather than "thank you" you see a whole lot of "this sucks because it doesn't do bla bla bla". Bugs the daylights out of me, and I have installed hacks I don't need/care about where I have seen that just to be a voice of thanks.

On the paid/free thing -- is/was this an issue with skins? I don't recall anyone being upset about commercial skins when there are free skin sites (like Floris') as well as skins released both here and .com yet (correct me if I am wrong) people with commercial skin sites/custom development of skins are allowed to plug them, no?

I wouldn't mind seeing a forum for paid hacks with a description and link. While I haven't any projects large enough to warrant that, others do. A small fee for the thread (like on WHT) and there ya go. I would go as far as to model it like WHT: No discussion outside of that thread about the hack -- only questions like pre-sale and feedback from those who use it.

Only thing is -- would there be a problem if someone released something similar (but different -- not a rip) for free? That could be a real headache for the staff...

The similiar thing doesnt really bother me. I mean if its similiar to one of my hacks and I look the code over and I dont see it being or consisting of chunks of my code I wouldnt have a problem.

Also with paid hacks you also get better support at least from me you get priority support on my site.

I don't have anything against paid hacks, although I will never pay for one. I just don't think they ought to use the org to advertise their paid hacks and use the site to get customers. It will become an epidemic overnight.

The only way I could see it ever even half-way working is to do what Wayne suggested doing a while back. To charge a percentage or fee to advertise paid hacks here. You have to spoend money to make money so there shouldn't be any problem with doing it that way. As much as I hate commercial hacks for vb (hacks, NOT coders), I could live with something like Wayne's proposal. The org is a gold-mine for anyone selling commercial hacks and we all know it. That's why this debate has been carrying on as long as it has. ;)

Im going to have to argue this whole thing. This is supposed to be the ultimate vbulletin resource site. Not allowing paid mods is restricting the resource availability.

I mean im not in this game to rip people off. I am in this to pay for my time I spend on my stuff and to cover all the time I spend providing support.

I mean I am targeting comercial grade programs right now. Such as a full feature client management system, a fully featured auction system, and a fully featured shopping cart / store system.

Why should I not be able to tell the people here about these nice tools. I mean some people are always looking for these things. But may never find them. Which hurts them. I know I will be selling them either way and covering my time for them and support and other expenses related to the script. If I had to pay a price to vb.org I would proble not offer them here or else I would more then likely have charge more. Which isnt fair to them.

So instead of paying a small price to advertise and bring in customers, you should get it for free, and still make money? What doesn't sound right about that?

Go to your local newspaper and tell them they should let you advertise for free and let me know what they tell you. ;)

lol

No what im saying is this is supposed to be the ultimate vbulletin resource. If I were to advertise here I would have to raise the price to offset the fee I have to pay. Which isnt fair to the user I said.

I mean most of my pay stuff is fairly cheap. Now the big commercial grade things usualy cost quite a bit more. But the smaller hacks and shit that I would be selling would be fairly cheap. Meaning im already hardly making anything on them just enough to hopefully cover my time and expense for the hack.

I have bills is all im saying and for me to spend as much time making free hacks as I used to it takes money and thats where my pay hacks help out. They help me to be able to keep making free products.