To quote you "Oh Wait" last term lol :p

repression != dynamic :)

Based on the poll, it would seem that a majority of people would like the resource. So, at least we can dispense with the arguement that the majority do not want it.

As I said in the other thread, 2 days is not a conclusive amount of time - I am sure there are people for and against it that have not been online in the last two days that would wish to cast their vote...

As I suggested, leave it for a week before you start boogying down over a 4 vote count lead ;)

Chris

I think its worth at least a week too however I think its still worth noting that regardless of the outcome from poll, it does obvious that a large % of people (right now, the majority) do want the discussion to change from 'do we' to 'how should we'.

After all, is it supposed to be a '50% or more have to request it in order for it to be taken into consideration' or is it a matter of 'A large portion want something, lets do it'?

Anyhooo - lets see how it pans out however its looking pretty relevant regardless (the lead has been proportionately maintained since it opened). Lets get on with the 'How is the best way to implement it' discussion!

I am wondering about a question for the paid modifications. Is there a way for them to check if the person has a license or not ?

Yes and no. Jelsoft doesn't give anyone access to check a persons licensed status outside of the offical websites. Some of them use a code inserted into a post in code boxes here, but that doesn't stop anyone from leaking it, and you can only change that code so often.

Then how can vbadvanced check if you have a license? (I think it does but I'm not sure)

They don't...

Chris

IIRC they use a code (perhaps password would be a better word to use...) within a code box here.

I'm a newbie to vBulletin and to this forum, so I hope this post isn't speaking out of turn. I've read it from the beginning and apart from the odd bit of posturing, it has been very interesting to see how people view this site, from both the user ,the coders and the moderators point of view.

Humble opinion, but it does seem to be a strange arguement to be having. One side to the arguement is that vBulletin.org has and should remain free, excluding commercial interests from the site in favour of free help being offered to new and existing members. The other side, the freedom to code, or recieve code for either free or with payment if the code warrants it for the amount of time and effort in its development. The arguement seems valid enough to everyone, so much so that it is worth trading insults over, yet it seems very unlikely it will ever be resolved, as its seems to me it is more an issue of trust than anything else.

If you allow someone to charge for their services, the consensus is that everyone will start charging and this will no longer be a .org, more of a .com and the community that exists here would struggle in some way. This seems a little bizarre as you already have a Service Request area, and unless I'm missing something, there are people there offering money for modifications to their vBulletins, yet no-one seems to respond to these requests. In other areas, where people are asking for help and advice for free, there are responses.

I'm trying to learn how to work vBulletin, but at the same time would gladly pay people to help me, I don't see that it conflicts with the nature of this site, more that it enhances its usefulness to the community. If you have the time and inclination to learn, there are more than a few who will encourage and help, if you don't have the time, but have the money, equally someone would be able to help. The majority in this community seem to be fair and reasonable people who will help whether payment is involved or not, and the introduction of any services that are based on pounds and pence rather than out of the goodness of someones heart would not be abused by the majority by no longer supporting the free elements of the community.

As I say, I don't mean to speak out of turn and as a new member here I maybe don't understand the arguement or the history of vBulletin.org, but if I'm reading into this correctly it would seem to me that anything that benefits the majority is at least worth thinking about and for the people who want to be paid for their efforts could show how useful the paid elements of the site could be by using the facilities that already exist until it is decided one way or the other.

Hossack

People don't respond to paid requests cause they don't have permission to do so.
They have to respond via pm. ;)

That would explain it :surprised: Had I read the sticky thread there, that would have answered me straight away :ermm:

Hossack

Thank you for your post Hossack, don't worry about speaking out of turn just because you're new to the community.

Michelle is right, we do not allow people to post replies in the service requests forum (save the author of the thread).

Oh please... you need to go back and read the points raised if you think such a slight lead justifies a change like this. This is exactly what I said on the first page about overlooking the concern members have about this and reading too much into straight-number polling. Our commercial hackers are this quick to declare victory? Give me a break.

Regardless of how an apparent "majority" might vote, it's plain to see this is an extremely contentious issue... with very strong feelings on both sides and significant opposition to this suggestion that shouldn't be drowned out. There's no overwhelming majority that we mostly agree to allow commercial advertising at the vb.org site. If you listen to what members have been saying, you find the opposite is true. There's alot at risk here and alot of concern.

Most people do support commercial hacks and most of us are going to pay for them. But if .org starts letting everyone start advertising and promoting their own self-interests here -- and I do mean EVERYONE (not only reputable and competent hackers) -- then that will interfere with the open exchange of free support among ourselves that the rest of us want to have.

Why can't people who want to turn this into a business on the side for themselves do that on their own.. or go in together and attract their own customers without inserting that commercial element here? In addition to all those commercial hacks we might wish to purchase, we also need and we *should have* one single centralized community as a free resource, too, that doesn't get caught up in all the hype, all the personal agendas, all the problems resulting from shoddy work/disreputable people, and the conflict of interest this raises for THIS community.

And, apparently, those who oppose the inclusive display of paid mods are equally quick to disregard the poll entirely.

I think the general feeling here is setting up their own site for this is still not going to solve the issue of having their products in a place most of the vBulletin users will see. They gear their products toward vBulletin users so it's only natural that they would want to be able to run ads for them here.

I do agree that the poll is not a good way to look at how the overall community feels about this, although it's showing a mainly 50/50 split at this time only a handful of the users have even voted in the thread.

Personally I don't think free support would dry up here if we went ahead and supported commercial hacks in some form. It takes a lot more then coding a few php scripts to sell your work.

You have to set-up your own website (hosting, vBulletin, domain name, the works), you have to provide your clients with support, you have to fix bugs within your scripts, you have to get the word out about your 'business'. All of this costs money and time, and if you happen to take off soon you'll be paying people to help with support/code.

Now out of the people posting hacks and giving support here, I'd be willing to bet less then 10% of them would have the time or desire to do all of this. Most of these guys and girls work a regular job, or go to school (or both) and do this has a hobby in their free time.

If any of you have been around for sometime at sitepoint you'll know their history with this very same issue. At one point the site was basically 'ad-free' but now it is not. Has the free support there dried up yet? No, in fact it has grown and is still doing so.

First off Hossak, great post and I yes - everyone here has a voice.

Talisman, don't get so angry. .Org isn't just for you and your beliefs toward scripts, its about everyones beliefs here. We have been told only a minority want information on commercial scripts in this thread by staff. The poll (so far anyway!) has proven that is not the case.

In no way does that warrant a change on its own, however it does suggest that many users would feel they would benefit from it. At that stage, it only seems logical to start discussion on the best way to do this while still maintaining the 'harmony' of .org.

The poll is still new, its not a specific poll, its an informal poll, sure there are a lot of things not perfect about the poll - however at least it does put an end to the 'only commercial script authors want .org to have them here' play.

Any user that has money right now can buy a paid script right now. So license is not needed for paid vBulletin modifications. Thats another reason why Jellsoft must find a solution for paid modifications. I dont want to see a paid modification in a unlicensed site and please dont come to me an arguement with why someone will pay for a modification if they dont pay for vb. One is 160$ not everyone can support and the other one is 20-30 $ .

Lets lay off the personal insults please. I'm not naming any names here but they are starting to become all to common in this thread.

Since when did Jelsoft turn it's business into a political democracy where the customers run it?

I see people citing this poll as if it's actually scientific or endorsed.

I've been good about this, but trust me, I have volumes to say.

If this new forum that is up was started by me or the geek, this thread would be dead.

I submit, and I don't care how unpopular this sounds, that this thread lives because two people that work here can profit from it.

Us "customers" would never be allowed 50 pages of setup advertising.

That's how .org is run and it is not going to change.

I'm going back to work. Cheers.

Change takes time, this is not something that will happen over night. For example we have been discussing this amoung the staff (that includes vBulletin.com staff) going back to at least July, if not longer. Why havn't you seen any action? Because it's still an on-going discussion.

There is nothing stoping you or anyone else from setting up your own forum for this purpose.

True if we were to charge commercial authors a fee to run ads here the staff members could profit from it. But I'd rather see such money used to buy things we would give away to the membership here (coding books, software, stuff like that). Honestly if I was looking to make money from Jelsoft I'd be spending more of my time answering support questions at vBulletin.com and less of it doing the day to day work needed to run this website.

Bingo.

10-foot pole and track-record are 2 terms that come to mind :D

Just for the record, my post has no negetive or positive conotation. It's just a statement of fact.

I think I'm on record as saying the setting works fine for me.

This is not the problem.

I don't need one, nor did I ask for one. Oh wait, I made one 4 years ago!

You dodged the point in your reply turing it back on me. The point was, you and the staff can promote an upcoming commercial venture, but we can't. I am certian if "I" opened that new forum, this thread would be closed and my links removed. Oh wait again, that already happened.

If I came off negitive towards you I apologize, I did not mean it in that way.

No problem. I'm not for this change. I know personally what kind of politics this will bring to the forum. It's not a good atmosphere IMO.

Alot of motives can be concieved from those that support this and alot of interesting facts have gotten away from being facts the more this thread goes on.

I have dodged nothing, it was simply a statement of fact. I'm am trying to be as open about this as possible and keep this discussion on track.

Why would we simply close the thread if you created a forum for this purpose? We didn't do so with the other one floating around (which has nothing to do with the fact the users that created it are staff members here). These people put up the vB license, domain, and hosted it for you guys out of the goodness of their hearts. It was not a break away, it wasn't something I agreed with but there is little I can do about it nor do I wish to do anything about it.

No one is forcing you to go there, you can create your own, link it here as long as it doesn't break any of the rules. You said you've already done so and we removed it? Care to link me to that post? I will look into it and if I feel you were wronged I will correct it, this is why I am here.

My PM box is always opened if you don't agree with an action of a moderator, I can't read minds nor can I read every single post within the forums. I depend on you guys to bring things to my attention.

We cross posted, but these are the kinda facts that are getting distorted. I'll address my inuendo first.

I posted a link in this thread twice. No big deal if ya ask me, but one was enough apparently.

I submit that if the forum I posted had no competition, no one would have been counting links in a 50 page thread. Not unless they had something to gain. I find that real interesting.

I'm not mad about the link nor do I care to protest it. I'm meerly pointing out how it looked to me now that the conversation has gone further and a forum for the purpose being discussed was started by staff members.

I truely could care less what happens. I'm just reading and observing.

I found the post in question, the link was removed because it was posted once before. It was not done by a staff member involded with the site in question.

Would I have removed it? No, but I don't think the fact that it was removed caused much harm (aside from your feelings on the issue which I can understand).

I think you've gotton over it, if it even bothered you that much at all. I just wanted to have a look and I though it best to explain. :)

Thanks. It's no bother. It's the perception of it. Appreciate the explaination.

I really have to do some work now.

Regards.

A few days ago, "The Geek" posted a message here that was directed at me, specifically by name. I've been away from the site since I read his post that morning, but I can reply to this now ... so I will.

To The Geek:

>> 1. Talisman, don't get so angry. .Org isn't just for you and your beliefs toward scripts, its about everyones beliefs here.

That's a very strange thing for you to say, The Geek. As an active participant at this forum, I have the exact same perogative as you do to express my opinion on the subject... which I have done in this thread and in the related poll question that was posted. You may not agree with me and you may not like what I say, but that's your problem; not mine. I suggest you find a way to accept that.

Have I ever made any statement -- anywhere -- that I'm the only person who should speak up about this or that I'm the only person who should be heard? No, not at all. The claim you make here that I would or that I ever have is just ridiculous. I have something to say on this subject, so I say it ... the same as you do. It's as simple as that.

>> 2. We have been told only a minority want information on commercial scripts in this thread by staff. The poll (so far anyway!) has proven that is not the case.

I don't believe that's true, The Geek. And I don't recall seeing a message from ANY staff person where they've said this and I've looked for the reference. If I've missed something, would you or someone else point me (us) to the staff member's post? (Thank you.)

Has anyone else said that we or they don't want any information at all on commercial hacks? Of course not. I'm quite sure we all want this information available -- just maybe handled differently than you wish, is all. I believe most of us also want the option to pay someone for a premium hack... if it's something we really want and we can afford the purchase price. At the same time though, it is a valid argument to make that adding commercial advertisement to a not-for-profit .org site will drastically change the purpose and function of this site.

Many people here oppose that change because it's really hard, already, for us to find many people who are willing to help beginners learn and to help us develop our sites without charging a price up-front for doing this. This isn't just my view... many of us who lack great expertise and who've been coming here for a long time have seen a big difference. It wasn't as bad as it is now just a few years ago. More people were willing to help us without stopping first to quote their fee schedule and discuss acceptable payment methods.

Now, I acknowledge that you don't agree with all the opposing views in this discussion and there's nothing wrong with that... but please don't characterize differing positions inaccurately. That only serves to cloud this issue and that's not fair to any of us.

>> 3. In no way does that warrant a change on its own, however it does suggest that many users would feel they would benefit from it. At that stage, it only seems logical to start discussion on the best way to do this while still maintaining the 'harmony' of .org.

I don't see a problem with this. The suggestion has been brought up for open discussion and many people feel very strongly about it on both sides of the argument. It seems clear to me that going forward with this change of purpose/direction at this .org site would NOT maintain harmony within our membership at all. For that matter, this is the most contentious debate I've ever seen at this site.

There are several other alternatives available to advertise commerical hacks, so I believe those options should be further explored and developed instead. I honestly don't see that the same option exists, however, for vB owners who want to share knowledge -- as we do here -- without the added influences we get from commercial soliciting.

A "not-for-profit" .org site does NOT benefit the extended vB community it serves by allowing its members to advertise openly and to solicit their fellow members at this site.

>> 4. The poll is still new, its not a specific poll, its an informal poll, sure there are a lot of things not perfect about the poll - however at least it does put an end to the 'only commercial script authors want .org to have them here' play.

It seems to me that you deliberately try to confuse this issue.. and that's not cool. If you're trying to quote me here, then you've definitely made a mistake because that's not what I said. I would think you should know better.

>> 5. Ill skip addressing the rest of your pointed points as they are of the usual tone. Maybe if you had produced any work and supported it for others to use here over the past 3 years, you wouldn't be so quick to pass judgment.

I hope everyone here will take a very close look at this. Because this attitude is EXACTLY the problem I have been talking about. Experienced coders at this .org site should be willing to encourage/support other members here who have less experience than they do.. even when there's some disagreement. Certainly, not try to slap them down like this one just did with me. I don't know this "The Geek" person at all, other than as a username I've seen here for someone who's developed commercial/non-commercial hacks for vB. But I know, for damn sure, that he doesn't know me or my personal circumstances, either.

The Geek.... that was a nasty thing for you to say. Where do you come off talking to me (or anyone else here) like that? You think it's okay to put me down .... just because I disagree with you... or because I voice my opinion... or because I don't have the same level of technical expertise that you have? Shame on you for this. Your attitude in that post is really pathetic. :ermm:

All of the above was well written. I have seen some of these so called expertise and he wants money for a hack that is not even finished.

Part of what you are saying ties in to why some oppose allowing a paid section here at org in that it will create a split class. On the one side we will have coders who will get paid and on the other we will have the FOC coders. How long will it be before the former looks down the nose at the latter? How long will it be before pressure is applied to convert the FOC coder to a paid one? Another reason for opposition is the question of the free scripts starting to suffer from lack of substance and functioncality and the only real ones will cost you a mint?

Here at the org we are all a community of board owners for the most part. We also have a special faction of coders that have for the most part over the years provided the rest of the community with free hacks and all has been content. It has been said that money ruins everything and I think we have no clearer proof of this than with this debate.

Here's is some math for the elitist coders out there who would talk down to us board owners. First we out number you. You treat one of us with disrespect, we remove your hack and pretend it never existed. We tell all of our friends that have boards about how bad you suck and maybe they will do the same. If you keep offending other board owners then eventually your hack will be only a bunch of codes that no one wants.

Coders are like creative artists, of which one must accept that some eccentricity is not abnormal ... there fore if a coder produces A1 work, I wouldn't give a rats arse about personality idiosyncrasies.

I would think that coders would continue to provide FOC's if ...
- more who have installed the mod would chip in and answer support questions to those less technically endowed.
- if more beneficiaries of the free mod would voluntarily donate a few bucks to their cause.
This would show that we're not just a bunch of free loaders.

~ Mark
I will never code, but as an artist in other mediums, I greatly appreciate the combined creativeness and spirit of good will that coders have given to vB.
Offering some form of recompense for services rendered is certainly not out of order.

meh i think paid hacks should be allowed on vb.org. people say that gratitude isn't down to £££ and to a certain extent you're right, however £££ goes a long way in providing this. people say that the coding is the easy part and to a certain extent they're right, i must say that i have atleast one hack where i'd be willing to release it for free but the support would take too much outta me, not to mention that for all the support i've given privately with the hack i don't recall anyone asking for my paypal details. coding and support is time consuming and while it's great to have it for free more gratitude should be shown, i.e. if it has an efficacious effect on your site you should take the inititive to contact the author asking for their paypal address and show them a little gratitude like that. i remember not long ago their was a coder here that was releasing mods regularly, his license ran out and that was the end to him, when he got back he released some more work and people installed it but weren't quite willing to think how he managed to get back. people need to realise that for the coders especially it costs to be here, theirs alot more giving than taking and absolutely no reason why people show their gratitude with £££.

but alas paid mods are not about to be allowed here. so my next suggest would be a directory, in which you're allowed to put 5 mods in a box via the cp that are for sale and if a user should want them they can contact the authors, it's alot like a signature directory. even as an end user i must say that knowing what's out there and available to enhance my community would really assist me, i'm trying to take over the world, a few mods along the way really wouldn't hinder me, even if they cost me.

PS. at this moment i think only extensions should cost, maybe, not quite sure yet, but i'm leaning over to that a way.

sabret00the also has a strong point. Gratitude should be shown. Those with a few extra bucks to spare should help out those coders.

Sheesh. All right, ill bite!

I would suggest you go back to the post you dissected and re-read it without anger. I honestly can not see anything there that can be construed as angry. If anything, I thought (and still do after re-reading it a few times) that I was being diplomatic.

For most here, commercial information is a contentious issue at .org. What I have a difficult time accepting is the Black and White mentality when given out by people who do not code and contribute to the site. Not because coders are better and therefore have more valid input, but rather because they are the ones putting in the time to write and support code FOC for others to use. Yes, in retrospect I can see how that may seem elitist, however that isn't the intention. The intention is to say that:

There is a huge base of Jelsoft customers (coders and non coders) that feel it would be a benefit to have a repository (directory, threads, whatever) of information on how to gain access to scripts that are not only FOC contributions. Likewise, there seems to be a base that want to keep it off of .org at all costs. Why? Why does it even affect you if you don't even write the code in the first place!?!? What seems to come from that attitude is that giving a voice for commercial scripts would take away the well of free work that others benefit from around here.

I can fully respect that many do not know how to code (or even want to). However I find it ironically hypocritical that those that do not give their time producing free work and supporting it should be so negative about discussing the creation of an information centre for those that want to make more informed decisions about what they get (Free or Paid) to enhance their site.

As for the comment about me selling code that isn't even finished I think its fair to point out that I actually don't 'want' money for stuff I haven't completed. What I have done is say 'this isn't finished, buy with caution if your desperate ;) '. Whats great about that is that people can make an informed choice. Personally, I would prefer that people don't buy something I make until its done however this way they have a choice in the matter. I like to think that it is a reflection of the quality of my work, support and trust that people have in my ability to provide them with quality enhancements (even if they aren't even done!).

I charge for some of my work and I give much of it away here FOC. If its something I put a shed load of time into and don't want to give it away for free, then who cares? No one is worse off for it. After all, I wouldn't of released it free anyway and those wanting it free don't have to buy it!

I am really shocked over this statement. In fact, this type of attitude is one of the reasons I started this thread.

Look, I apologize if I came off hard against you Talisman - hand on heart I didn't mean to. In fact, I had actually made a comment about me being pissed off about non contributors attitudes on this subject. I edited the post and removed that comment within minutes of posting it because it was wrong of me. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion on the subject regardless of how much they contribute.

To be honest, I'm pretty spent on the whole issue. I have only seemed to turn into the poster child for commercial add ons because I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut when I find an issue that I feel is unfair. The issue is whether .org should provide a resource for customers to become informed about commercial add ons. To me, I find it unfair when those that do not give their free time creating and supporting work FOC want to suppress information about those that do. Please don't take it as I am pointing fingers at anyone in particular - I'm generalizing.

Once again, apologies if you were offended.

As people said, the "freeloaders" should donate some back. As a coder with a fairly large mod released (for free), I can say that having a few dollorz land in my paypal every now and then would really help me make a better desicion in the times where I go "Work on the ever-lasting RPG or play some Lineage II...?".

The thing most people here seem to be missing is this:
THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DIRECTORY OF OFF-SITES WITH PAID MODS, AND to HAVE VBULLETIN.ORG HOST THESE MODS.
I do apologise for the enormous font, but having someone draft up a HUGE post complaining about how the average coder will see this addition as a way to get $5 a piece for his hack, which IS NOT TRUE, annoys me more than reading that font.
The user must HOST and SUPPORT his hack HIMSELF (or herself <3).

Ok to use myself as an example (yet again, I do love the sound of my own ...typing..?):
I don't know what different "Links and Directories" hacks exist out there. There may be paid ones, there may be free ones. I can search the org and maybe find one (I think I saw one here the other month), but it might be lacking some of the advanced functions I am looking for.
"Google Is Your Friend", sure, but thing is, I suck balls at google searching. It's true. I probably wouldn't be able to find my own penis if it required google searching.
I don't want vB,org to be a feedback system
I don't want vB,org to show users rating of the paid hack
I want a simple, searchable database of sites and what paid hacks they offer

Do you honestly think that Joe/Jane Coder will hassle with paying for hosting, making a nice design on the site, secure a members area, setup a support board and market the hack if he couldn't get more than $5 for it? Please. That, quite simply, is retarded.
However, if Joe Coder has made a hack that by all professional standards is worth $20 or more, can afford to invest in hosting/board licence and thinks he can handle the pressure of support for his hack, then I beg of you, give me 1, just ONE good reason why he should go through the same pressure of support (or in most cases, a bigger pressure) just so people can demand professional-level support and an excellent hack for free.
What in most cases will happen is that Joe Coder will say "sod this" because he either has to release it for free with limited support (which is bad for the users), or hassle with marketing his hack himself. He can't advertise it HERE, so he has to try to get word of mouth going. Both of which may be too big of a hassle for Joe Coder, and he will just not bother with it.
But if he could list his site in a directory at the Ultimate vBulletin Resource, then the word of mouth would spread with little effort on his end, and the community would be able to benefit from his mod.

Yeah, thats right. Instead of thinking "ohs teh noes, we have to pay $20 for a quality hack! /cryface", think that without those $20 you probably wouldn't have that particular hack at all. Sure, someone else might have had the same idea and made some half-assed free mod with support that died within the month, but Joe Coder will take his excellent hack to his grave.
Is the greater evil really the $20?

decent post but the huge font sucks.

I read the big font in the same time as rest of the post :rolleyes:

Not all free coders code "half-assed" mods...

That attitude in itself is a good reason that this shouldn't happen...

Chris