This seems to be a discussion amongst coders for the benefit of coders so I am going to stay out of it but I did want to post something to the coders from a consumer standpoint.
I don't expect anything for free. I can only imagine the time some of you take to create your hacks and additions, plus reading some of the responses you get in your support threads leaves me shaking my head in disbelief sometimes.

I love it when you guys that offer paid hacks release nice little hacks and even major additions for free here at vb.org. It gives me chance to see and evaluate your product. Some examples of this are:

I installed vBadvanced CMS, when it came time for me to purchase a Gallery, the first place I went was of course vBadvanced. Price had nothing to do with it.
I recently installed Geek Gallery Popup 4.0 and it works flawless. Now that I will be needing a new article system for 3.5.1 I am fairly certain I will be purchasing GARS from The Geek once it is out of beta.

If cinq, another coder who I hold in high regard, was to offer his glossary for free, I would visit his site. If I found that he had an article system for sale as well, it might make my choice even harder to make as for which one to buy.

These free add-ons can bring people to your sites for additional purchases. All the great vb coders that I know about I have heard about them here at vb.org. Either by using one of their releases or just hearing about them around this site.
I have no use for any kind of directory for paid add-ons.
I am sure there are plenty of people that would have an interest in this but I am a firm believer in word of mouth advertising. Everything I need to know I can learn here at vb.org

Thanks again.

If nothing else, I think this threads proves that if it were an option there are people who would find it useful.

That's actually my whole purpose of doing up a Resource Directory on my site (rating and comments coming soon), because frankly, judging from the way this thread is, I seriously doubt there will be an outcome here on .org that would satisfy both sides.

On another note, whatever modifications I release will NOT be paid ones.

Yes but when you get right down to it that sort of thinking works for those of us that would rather keep this site what ive read it was started for...a Free resource for vB'ers in that it also proves that there are people who would find it problematic to put it nicely

MPDEV; You point out that there are plenty of free forums with add ons.
The reason i picked vBullitin is because this is fore me the moste secure product.
And with all the good hacks and addons here, this is what i wanted.

I run a non commersial site, with a small group of ladies.
Witch i know there is a lot of in my country. This is a group with not the most money on the side.
We do this fore fun and to satisfie our members, not to put a lot of money in it.
If i cant use vBullitin, i will not keep this forum.
If i want to bye a hack, there is money i have to save fore sometime.

I hope you make a poll on this, because i dont think the majoritet here has a LOT of money to spend on this.

Thanks Boofo - I come across as kind and caring because I am while I feel you come across as a grumpy cynical curmudgeon which you are. Now enough of the name calling lets get some facts straight.

I gave (and continue give) to .org because I love to code and even more love to know I have helped someone get a bit more from their site. If you count up my time I have given here in FOC work and time spent supporting that code, it could rival the time that some of the Mods around here spend on the site. That isn't a nod at mods, thats to try and say that I have (and continue to do so) given a lot of time around than a lot of other contributors in the past year (which you seem to forget).

Furthermore, your accusation that all I am trying to do is make money off .org is about as off mark as you can get. I make very good money in my full time job which has always allowed me to give away my free time for free. Now however all I ask is that if you chose to take advantage of that time - you pitch a bit in. I charge piss all for my work and therefore I make next to nothing for it and I plan to keep it that way. In fact, I have given over 50% of what I have grossed so far into sponsoring OTHER vb resource sites because I felt it was giving back to the community. If the .10p an hour is me being greedy then call me Uncle Scrooge.

I have never belittled anyone that has given time to the community - in fact I started this thread because your 'loving, caring, supportive community' was belittling each other without so much of a word from you. What I have tried to do in the continuing discussion is to put things in perspective which you continuously distort. Since your mission seems only to paint me as some mean, greedy leech it suits your purpose quite well however it really makes me question the meaning of the word 'moderator'.

Regardless I am well past caring how you try to muddy the discussion (and facts), from what I have witnessed here, there is a actually a very loud voice for those that would find benefit for a way to become more informed about commercial systems.

I suggested a poll awhile back - why not run it? Lets see how many of those that do give to the community actually vote that they are totally against being informed of commercial solutions (unlikely). Rather lets see how many non givers are totally against the imaginary threat of losing their 'endless well of free work' (which is as paranoid as it is implausible). The reality is that most are at worse apathetic to it, but in all reality they feel it may be of some benefit. Only those with over active imaginations think that everyone will stop making FOC work.

See, there seems to be this fear that if there is an avenue for commercial information that suddenly everyone is going to charge for their work. The theme seems to be 'ignorance will keep them working for nothing'. That isn't very community spirit. I would think we would encourage those that have put in the effort to grow to a point where they can be commercially rewarded for all their hard work - not kept in the dark so you can continue to get free stuff off of them.

People also seem to forget 1 key aspect of providing commercial information here: You don't have to view it. You don't have to buy it. You can pretend its not even there. Therefore it doesn't even affect you so why be so hell bent for leather in order to take the option from those that want it?

Lets face it, this thread was started in response to how .orgs community spirit is (and there is no commercial info section here now!). Maybe with the introduction of a commercial information section of the site - those that download free work will be that much more appreciative to those that give their time for free.

Regardless, its time we all move forward - we all keep bantering back and forth and now its turned into a discussion with mostly the same people arguing their viewpoints and the only constructive proposals seem to be those who are interested in exploring additional avenues.

Just do the poll, lets see the results and lets then put the results in perspective. Then you can stick it to me and say I told you so (which I am sure you will do in a number of ways). Would be interesting if you made it so the participants were those that has released at least 1 modification here - but then I'm sure that wouldn't work would it?

You're right. I retract everything and apologize.

I think an informal poll is a good idea - for no other reason than it would stop this petty debate over weather anyone would actually use it.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=100721

My personal opinion is that if I pay, I am pretty sure I get to complain if it doesnt work and I paid for it. If I use a free hack and I still end up donating in most cases to support the causes. I appreciate all the work here on the site, without it I would have just another purple forum with really neat smilies :) :)

There's a difference between a loud voice and a majority voice. Usually the majority feels safe and thus they are quiet because they always expect someone else will participate for them, so their voice is represented by a small fraction of the actual group. But just like everything else in life the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

And unless the poll becomes something that every member has to vote on before they can continue at the site then I don't see it ever providing a good estimation of what all members of the community really feel.

I also think if you want to get more support you're going to have to spell things out a little more specifically so its not just this vague concept of commercial hacks.

What do you want .org to do? How should they moderate commercial hacks? should any hack be allowed to be released commercially here? Is there some way to set pricing standards? Should the sales be done here on this site? Should .org get a piece of the pie? Should coders be allowed to charge for sale of the code and support? What do you do if a hack has vulnerabilities and bugs? What do you do if the coder won't address the vulnerabilities/bugs? If .org handles the money, should they keep it for a specified amount of time to ensure support/fixes? How do you handle unsatisfied customers, customers that didn't get from the hack what they expected? are there refunds? What if one hack is incompatible with another hack? People paying for hacks are going to expect more in return, both in support and in performance/quality, which will increase the amount of time coders must put into the hack, will this be reflected in the pricing? Are coders ready to put that much more time into it (especially when they already have other 'well-paying' jobs)? How will allowing commercial hacks here affect the sales/image of vbulletin overall? Would code which is based on/uses licensed vbulletin code be allowed to be sold? Should there be a separate part of the site for the paid hacks or should they be integrated with the free ones? Should members that want premium hacks pay a monthly or yearly fee and the coders get some of that money based on the installs of their hacks (so long as usage is limited to those paying members)? Should there be a quota to the number of free hacks which a member can download/install before being required to donate something to the 'coders' pot'?

I'm sure there's many other issues to consider, but its really not as simple as should they allow commercial hacks or not. I think the best way to handle this would be to rally the coders together and make your own site. If it seems to be handled well then maybe .org can consider integrating some of the ideas.

Why? We elect Presidents with only half the eligible voters actually casting a vote.

Nothing wrong with getting a sample, for no other reason than to provide some kind of indication to both sides of the debate.

Hahaha... yeah, and look how well THAT has turned out for us. :p

And? Do we really want to pattern it after something that gets that kind of turnout/results?

and there is 'Nothing wrong with getting a sample' so long as everyone is aware who is in the sample and what it means. for example putting a poll in this part of the site limits who will see it and the type of users that will vote on it.

They are all great questions Easy - however I think the first step is to try and determine if a valid proportion of Jelsoft customers would like to have a solution for accessing commercial add ons for vBulletin.

Me? I dont think too much of the poll even though its looking pretty good now. I personally think its too B&W and draws people into 1 camp or the other when my personal perception is that the majority arent overly bothered either way. Its not like they are forced into viewing anything eh?

At least discussion is going forward but Jelsoft still needs to make up their mind regardless of the outcome of the poll.

Pretty well actually, no more planes running into very large New York buildings, gas is cheaper now than a year ago ($1.86 here) and Saddam is going on trial soon for killing 50X more people than have died from Al Queda attacks in the current war, got to say those are plusses......

Now aside from the left coast chatter, I digress...

I think Geek et al has a great idea. Why is it that Jelsoft should be the only people allowed to make money on this? Jelsoft even realizes this, hasnt anyone noticed the changes in 3.5 to be, dare I say.., hack friendly? What other paid BB is this hack friendly?? IPB, nope..

They (Jelsoft) understand what hacks do for them and this community. I doubt they would mind at all. The US and UK economies are based on free markets and why not exercise it here.

The hacks dont need to be actually hosted here, just a simple thread with a paypal link and discussions. Professional admins do not mind paying a few $$ for things and code that will make us 10X that on our sites.

-Jason

So prior to 9/11 the United States was more vulnerable to airplane hijacks/attacks because of the way votes were conducted/percentges voting? And since then there's been a change in the election system which has caused all that you attributed to it?
Well this is their site, why should anyone but them be allowed to make money here? (yes I agree that the coders here help vb.com earn more money so you could say that the coders are entitled to a piece, and that by allowing paid hacks you could actually increase the amount of sales at vb.com) But can you go to the microsoft website and post modifications you want to sell? Can you make vb.com see that by charging for some hacks here that it wouldn't take $$/customers away from them?Actually the few times I've brought up the power of the coding community and the influence it has on vbulletin sales they try to throw the 90/95% don't use hacks crap at me. I think that a large portion of that 90/95% however has purchased the software because of a site that has modifications.I for one hate sites that are just click throughs to other sites. I already hate registering for more sites than I have to and this would just increase that. Plus I think linking to other sites would make it easy for coders to take someone elses hack and release it on their own site, whereas if they were hosted here you could avoid that.
And they don't mind paying nothing for it either. But yes, they should be more likely and more willing to pay money since they'd be getting money back and are in the position to pay in the first place.

I think I just said this on the poll page but it may be worth mentioning here:

I dont think anyone should get hung up on the particulars of HOW information is offered to customers. Thats another debate entirely!

But in response to the MS point - they dont sell 3rd party vendors work - however they do have resources for you to find 3rd party vendors unlike here.

No big deal really.

I think it is time that a 3.6 Beta was released, and all could spend time on analysing the new code and redisigning more great hacks. :D

Geek,

If you go to the community sites right there on Microsoft.com they offer commercial 3rd party addons that anyone can submit. I deal with a alot of Frontpage webadmins and MS.com has a ton of 3rd party commercial addons right there on the site. It expands the community.

Easy Target,

Re-read my post as a reply to the insult to our president above, nothing more nothing less. As a veteran of this (and other) wars it is offensive to me when people throw those types of insults out off handedly or otherwise.

Also, when did our voting system change? :)

-Jason

That would throw everyone askew :)

Um, I'll take a stab at this one, because this is a "resource" site, not a marketing site for JelSoft?

ok, I didn't inteprate his post that way so I thought you were attributing those events to the U.S. election system which as far as I know hasn't had any major change directly prior to or after the events occurred.Can't thank you enough.


a ton of commercial addons? link? and if they do, are you sure its because they want to offer them and not because of some lawsuit that has forced them to or in some response because of lawsuits to help with public opinion?

so being labeled as a resource site makes this not a marketing site?

Ok, there might have been a lawsuit, Ms has as many lawyers I think now as they do coders :) Here is the link:

Ms Frontpage site:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX010858021033.aspx

The Frontpage Marketplace:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/re...HH100678531033

Some items there are free and some arent. But they are pretty intermingled.

-Jason

haha what ms really needs are lawyers that can code.

You might have something on that, but you would have to find 'smart' lawyers :) :)

ahah yeah, imagine the potential of lawyer/coder jokes.

Forget the jokes, we could have some TV potential! Watch out LA Law here comes "Columbus Coding" at at 11pm, right after ER comes "Baltimore vBasic" :) :)

It turned out great.

Now leave politics out of this thread mmkay?

<cough35%aprovalratingcough> so no it didnt turn out all that great ... further more.. someone else brought the politics up first she only made a joke. Relax people

Back to the topic at hand......[I]


Earlier in the thread another site was being talked about and even in the works if i remember correctly ..... my question is this since most of the coders ive read responding in this thread if this site started allowing even just "link throughs" this site to other sites how can they garentee that this site wouldnt get targeted with all the "the only reason i paid <insert random name>hacker to install an arcade was because i found him here" type posts. and i dont mean just this coder site that was linked earlier if they allow a few to do it then wouldnt eventually there be alot of other "less credible" sites popping up wanting to do the same thing, thus in the long run just causing even more confusion and drama?

Oh, okay. I just saw a link to the site, looked at showgroups and it seems to be the same 'staff' as here (minus a few). I guess I'll work out what it's all for when I have time to read some more posts.

owenweb,

You are currently showing up as unlicensed. To be able to download hacks and/or receive support here at vBulletin.org, we ask you to please click here (vB-germany users click here) and enter your email address, to show us that you are licensed.

You will need to use your customer number and password (which will be in the email you got when you paid for your license) to access that page. Please note that your email is case sensitive. The update of your account may take up to one hour.

Thank you.

Maybe he wont get re-elected... oh wait.. What did polls last year say?... Kerry who?

:) :)

Maybe yahoo mail and hotmail, etc. should be sued for having .com domains when that's where the 'free' webmail is at, false advertising eh? hehe :rolleyes:

I wonder if the guy at Hotmail was laughing when gmail first came out. Now wonder what he is saying? :) :)

i would wonder more about that gMail guy actually, because that was not funny to trash the work of the Hotmail guy.. lol

TAP TAP TAP... IS THIS THING ON?

I've been around the block here, on the soap box here and under the bus here. This place has and serves a great purpose. Despite how this change could work to my advantage, I'm too well aware of how such a change would upset the dynamic of the site. I'm not even getting into the biz end of things regarding Jelsoft.

This is a great stage. This is a great tool. This is a great place for free exchange.

Don't try to change vb.org. Change how you do business.

Fade to black.

I disagree, change is what makes Vb dynamic and interesting. Vb will and should change. Opening a marketplace is for everyones benefit.

Is this thing on? Hello? Would the owner of the green Kia please come to the service counter??

That's not how I was using the word dynamic. I was stating about the way the site works.

You are talking about the flexibility, flux, of the product. I agree that it exists. It's the basis of this thread.

But this is a .org and run in the spirt of free. There are plenty of advertising avenues available already.

No way jose, vb.org is only for people who have purchased the vb product, that in no way imparts free. phpbb.com that is free. This is more of a premium service for people who choose the best forum software and are willing to pay for it.

Was the Kia yours?

My car has alot more letters in the name then that.

As I told someone previously in this thread, I'm not looking for a pissing match.

You are splitting hairs when you cite free as not free cause you have to be a vB owner to utilize this site to it's full extent. I thought you had a debate to mount.

Oh well.