Time To Speak Up?

[Gio~Logist]

Never have i tried to cause commotion or unwanted problems. However, the second a couple of people (i included) voice our opinions regarding certain situations, we get a statement that translates to "Follow the first amendment and get banned".

Ask yourself this now, do you honestly think that the staff has more support than the coders and designers who make this forum? The people who come here come here for what we do, and yet when we ask for answers, we get put down? A staff title here means nothing more than a simple "I can delete and edit posts", and yes... you've made it very clear that you can. However, no coders and designers = no need for this site = no need for a staff. So why doesn't everyone try and remember exactly what this site is for and tuck your tail in between your legs.

I once said Anticipation = The hope for fascination, which in this case may seem like it = procrastination?

But let me change it and add that this procrastination is leading to aggravation and possibly the site lacking elevation, and possibly soon will be needing termination if the determination and anticipation isn't put into consideration. Did i make that clear?

Some coders and i were talking over on AIM about actually leaving vb.org along with the many who have. I actually am quite active here as you know and still have some love for it and the users here, so i'm trying to hold on to what's left. However, how about some inspiration?

Wayne, i'm sorry if i offended you in my post in the other thread. However, i just think that that pm to Corrie was a bit uncalled for.

Hopefully this thread doesn't get closed and deleted. Before jumping to conclusions and saying "This thread won't cause any good", why not try and give some good input?

[The Chief]

Inspiration, encouragement and motivation are essentiel in keeping a community active.

[Gio~Logist]

Inspiration, encouragement and motivation are essentiel in keeping a community active.

Thank you for agreeing.

[TruthElixirX]

Though I'm friends with Corrie, I'm not going to be a fanboy for either group.

The last thread was somewha tense, and obviously people still have frustrations over the pace of things. Instead of closing the thread, sending threatening PMs, deleting posts, and talking of banning, I think it would have been much better to tell everyone, on both sides, to cool down and talk it over rationally.

Were there blatant personal attacks in the last thread? I don't think so; though plenty were hinted at. Lets have a nice civlized discussion without pulling out the ban hammer and without yelling insults at staff.

[Corriewf]

Yes, Wayne, no one wants to attack the staff here. We are simply looking for updates on progress. I am unsure why we are being alienated, but I can tell you that I have not broken any rules here what so ever. I can tell you wayne, that your language isn't appreciated in your private message to me. If I am banned, I will make sure that, the pm (which has been forwarded to many on this site by now) will get to the right people at Jelsoft. Now, can the hard working people here please be met with civil respect?

[Gio~Logist]

Lets have a nice civlized discussion without pulling out the ban hammer and without yelling insults at staff.

Yes, please.

[hambil]

These changes will take time. For one thing this is a high volume site, and creating complex hacks for it is more of a challenge than you might think. For another, adding more coders and staff will help, but as any project manager can tell you there is always a ramp up time after adding new staff to a project.

Give them a break, give them some time.

And to the staff: Closing and deleting threads can sometimes just fan the flames.

[DementedMindz]

wow i guess it starts from the top down with respect and not giving it... i was reading the last thread and was getting ready to reply and poof closed... i guess thats the easiest way to shut people up and keep the higher ups thinking things are going well... seems like that has been going on alot lately... i dont cause no trouble here and aint trying too either but to threating peope with a ban when there stating there own opion i dont thing is a good thing.. i mean come on there were no attacks i seen at all... just questions being asked but im sure this thread will get closed and i think that gio~logist and Corriewf are both bring up valid points..

[Adrian Schneider]

Agreed, hambil.

[Wayne Luke]

They haven't even finished setting up permissions yet or finished filling the teams. There has been nothing to really report. Why announce things before they are ready? A million posts requesting more information won't get it. Not even two weeks have gone by since the announcement of the new staff structure. Certainly that is not an unreasonable amount of time to start building teams. It requires reviewing potential members, talking with them and setting things up.

--------------------------------------------------------
The next part is GENERAL. It isn't directed to one person in particular, just to make that clear. Those causing the problems know who they are and they will know when they read it.

The ongoing behavior on this site suggest otherwise. It seems that all some people want to do is destroy this site and vBulletin and will do everything in your power to do so. You log into chatrooms and attack Jelsoft employees for fun. You do the same to the staff here for your own whims. From now on, it will result in bans. It is stated in the rules, whether you read them or not. The staff have been very lenient but now they are backed into a corner. All this does is contribute to a negative situation which people say they want to resolve. It isn't helping. All it does it make people defensive and quite literally develop a great dislike if not hatred for the people causing the problems. No one here wants to ban people. We truly don't. However if that is what it comes to then it must. People simply can't expect their hundredth warning and a slap on the wrist.

Quite frankly, everytime people cause this crap I have to think hard on whether it would be simply easier to delete the whole site and start from scratch or simply allow commercial addons without the need for this site. However people do rely on the site for their own forums and it is a great resource. People need to stop causing problems simply to do so. It doesn't help anyone in the long run.

Really, you want the staff to be more forthcoming instead of armed to the teeth and sitting in their foxhole, then you need to extend a branch and drop the stupid schoolyard antics and petty fights. It is as simple as that. Sarcastic quips hurt and they are attacks and they should not be tolerated. Don't you remember what your parents taught you? It is probably the most important thing they taught you in your life...

TREAT OTHERS HOW YOU WISH TO BE TREATED.

Want to be treated badly then treat others badly. That is how it works. Want people to accept you and treat you with respect, then do so as well. The last few weeks on this site many have not had any respect but think they deserve it in return. It isn't going to happen. You will be treated like what you are, a spoiled customer who is more trouble than worth.

This isn't the way it has to be and you know it. You want change on the forums, the start it. Want to be treated differently, then start treating others differently. Bring what you want to the table and it will spread.

[Corriewf]

These changes will take time. For one thing this is a high volume site, and creating complex hacks for it is more of a challenge than you might think. For another, adding more coders and staff will help, but as any project manager can tell you there is always a ramp up time after adding new staff to a project.

Give them a break, give them some time.

And to the staff: Closing and deleting threads can sometimes just fan the flames.


As said in the other thread, no one expects Rome to be built in a day, but im sure even Rome was more outspoken about updates then this.

They haven't even finished setting up permissions yet or finished filling the teams. There has been nothing to really report. Why announce things before they are ready? A million posts requesting more information won't get it. Not even two weeks have gone by since the announcement of the new staff structure. Certainly that is not an unreasonable amount of time to start building teams. It requires reviewing potential members, talking with them and setting things up.

--------------------------------------------------------
The next part is GENERAL. It isn't directed to one person in particular, just to make that clear. Those causing the problems know who they are and they will know when they read it.

The ongoing behavior on this site suggest otherwise. It seems that all some people want to do is destroy this site and vBulletin and will do everything in your power to do so. You log into chatrooms and attack Jelsoft employees for fun. You do the same to the staff here for your own whims. All it does is contribute to a negative situation which people say they want to resolve. It isn't helping. All it does it make people defensive and quite literally develop a great dislike if not hatred for the people causing the problems.

Quite frankly, everytime people cause this crap I have to think hard on whether it would be simply easier to delete the whole site and start from scratch or simply allow commercial addons without the need for this site. However people do rely on the site for their own forums and it is a great resource. People need to stop causing problems simply to do so. It doesn't help anyone in the long run.

Really, you want the staff to be more forthcoming instead of armed to the teeth and sitting in their foxhole, then you need to extend a branch and drop the stupid schoolyard antics and petty fights. It is as simple as that. Sarcastic quips hurt and they are attacks and they should not be tolerated. Don't you remember what your parents taught you? It is probably the most important thing they taught you in your life...

TREAT OTHERS HOW YOU WISH TO BE TREATED.

Want to be treated badly then treat others badly. That is how it works. Want people to accept you and treat you with respect, then do so as well. The last few weeks on this site many have not had any respect but think they deserve it in return. It isn't going to happen. You will be treated like what you are, a spoiled customer who is more trouble than worth.

This isn't the way it has to be and you know it. You want change on the forums, the start it. Want to be treated differently, then start treating others differently. Bring what you want to the table and it will spread.

Wayne your a hypocrite.

Why would you treat anyone with such disregard as in your pm to me? I am sure I will be banned for posting this, but it has been forwarded to sooo many people by now that it doesn't matter....Everyone who is important will know the truth.

I know that all you like to do is cause problems and stir the shit so that you are in the middle of things. You already skate close to being banned everytime you post on this forum. You need to take that into consideration that they even let you stay a member here. Just because you own a vBulletin license, it doesn't give you a right to be a member of this community. It is a priviledge, one you haven't really earned.

So what happened to the so called changes around here? I havn't seen any.... Sure you guys filled in your ranks to make your staff power stronger, but what about the end user? Where's the paid hack directory at? Where is the updates on progress we were promised? It is pretty funny that you guys gathered some of the most vocal people about the problems around here to become staff.... Was this some attempt at hushing them? Wheres Wayne Luke at? Whatever happened in that so called meeting that Jelsoft had in regards to this site? We havn't received any updates and im seeing more and more attitude return by the day from the staff around here. We have threads closing like crazy and disappearing....... What's going on guys? Sure Rome wasn't built in a day but I am sure they were more outspoken about their progress.....

[Wayne Luke]

Why would you treat anyone with such disregard as in your pm to me? I am sure I will be banned for posting this, but it has been forwarded to sooo many people by now that it doesn't matter....Everyone who is important will know the truth.

I am treating you with the same respect that you give me and all the staff here. Sorry but if the shoe fits. That is all I really have to say about the matter. At this point, I honestly don't care whether you like me or not or want to associate with me. Want to bring things out in the open, then so be it.

If you were truly indignant about my private message, then you would have kept it private instead of showing it proudly just to prove how persecuted you are. And the only reason your post was quoted is because the link added it for some reason and I forgot to delete it. The Private Message is about more than that one post, but your general attitude in general.

And yes, the cursing was out of line. I apologize for that. It is just very frustrating that whenever I get a little time to be with my wife, something is happening on this site that pulls me away. Now I have a pissed wife and am awaiting a very unpleasant evening.

[hambil]

As said in the other thread, no one expects Rome to be built in a day, but im sure even Rome was more outspoken about updates then this.
It's difficult to know how much to share. You run the danger of 'design by committee', and I can promise you most of the people making suggestions will not be good enough to be doing so, and will only confuse the process. Then they will be angry they aren't being listened to.

The best thing the staff can probably do on a site like this is get together a timeline for major addition, and leave out the details. We'll see the details when the design is done, or the hack/change is implemented.

That's the way it has to be. As a professional coder I've been here many times. You cannot let everyone be invovled in the design, despite the fact that everyone thinks they should be and everyone thinks *their* ideas are great regardless of how much experience they actually have at site design or coding or business.

[smacklan]

While I haven't always agreed with you Wayne (I keep it to myself), I agree with you this time. I don't expect major changes or announcements until they are ready. I also think the people who are in control should have the latitude to operate the site in their timeframe and as they see fit. Good luck to everyone...hope we all get what we are looking for ;)

[Corriewf]

I am treating you with the same respect that you give me and all the staff here. Sorry but if the shoe fits. That is all I really have to say about the matter. At this point, I honestly don't care whether you like me or not or want to associate with me. Want to bring things out in the open, then so be it.

If you were truly indignant about my private message, then you would have kept it private instead of showing it proudly just to prove how persecuted you are.

I have never used profanity in any message directed at any staff here Wayne. Matter of fact I have never messaged you at all. I speak with just about every staff member here on a personal basis so im unsure what you are referring to, but I know it isn't correct.

I didn't chose to make my TRUE feelings private, you did. I chose to make them unprivate. This is the internet and as any 12 year old has been warned by momma and daddy, whatever you put out there will be spread around with, or without your knowing.

It's difficult to know how much to share. You run the danger of 'design by committee', and I can promise you most of the people making suggestions will not be good enough to be doing so, and will only confuse the process. Then they will be angry they aren't being listened to.

The best thing the staff can probably do on a site like this is get together a timeline for major addition, and leave out the details. We'll see the details when the design is done, or the hack/change is implemented.

That's the way it has to be. As a professional coder I've been here many times. You cannot let everyone be invovled in the design, despite the fact that everyone thinks they should be and everyone thinks *their* ideas are great regardless of how much experience they actually have at site design or coding or business.


Yes, but this website's success is based off it's userbase. It was the userbase's crys that prompted changes. So after 2 or 3 weeks it has been, an update would be expected. Last we heard was that they may or may not go with a paid script and may or may not utilize people here for coding projects revolving around the site.... After a while it is hard to tell rumor from fact.


Btw, all the staff jobs have been given out for now im sure.... It's ok to speak your mind.

[Kihon Kata]

I love: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/customavatars/avatar57845_0.gif just like I love the org. I would die if you closed it.

[Gio~Logist]

Btw, all the staff jobs have been given out for now im sure.... It's ok to speak your mind.

I kind of felt the same. However, i'm sure he's just looking out for both sides, hopefully.

As far as the staff is concerned, how many positions are left? All cockiness surprised, i've had several people IM me and such asking me why i'm not on the staff or saying that they're surprised i'm not. Honestly, it's not a major deal, and probably won't benefit me much. However, i have pmed the admins letting them know that i am available if they need me.

What does it take to get approved by the way? To be honest, i think that the abilities of other members surpass the ones of some of those on the staff (no offense). I personally also think that Psionic should be in the coding team as well.

Either way doesn't bother me, but i'm just curious as to what made these people get chosen that didn't make others such as Psionic?

[Tim Skellett]

What I see here, as a totally non-involved member, is two posters going in for repetitive baiting.

What I want to know from you two is just how do you think your personal baiting is supposed to hurry things along or help in any way, as you obviously think so.

[Gio~Logist]

What I see here, as a totally non-involved member, is two posters going in for repetitive baiting.

What I want to know from you two is just how do you think your personal baiting is supposed to hurry things along or help in any way, as you obviously think so.

Are you referring to me? Because i personally have no problem with anyone here.

[Logikos]

Round N round we go. Give them some time, 2 weeks isn't gonna change awhole lot. If you havn't noticed, every other day they are getting new members on staff, which means more features will come faster then before.

[Gio~Logist]

Round N round we go. Give them some time, 2 weeks isn't gonna change awhole lot. If you havn't noticed, every other day they are getting new members on staff, which means more features will come faster then before.

I was waiting for you. Send me a pm, i have a bone to pick with you young man!

[Logikos]

I'm in trouble. :(

[Boofo]

Btw, all the staff jobs have been given out for now im sure.... It's ok to speak your mind.

No they have not. Teams are still being put together. You're information is wrong. And speaking one's mind is totally acceptable if it is done is a calm and productive, and not destructive, way. ;)

[Gio~Logist]

No they have not. Teams are still being put together. You're information is wrong. And speaking one's mind is totally acceptable if it is done is a calm and productive, and not destructive, way. ;)

I've been waiting for you too, as you're always in these discussions hehe. The elder has arrived!

The teams still being put together is interesting, any way to nominate someone even if you're only a member?

[Tim Skellett]

First off, there is the time factor, as mentioned by Wayne. Barely 2 weeks and already not only clamouring for the changes but insinuating for no apparent good reason that there won't be any at all?

Statements like these (not mentioning who made them), and my own very personal, uninvolved perceptions of them (right or wrong):
the second a couple of people (i included) voice our opinions regarding certain situations, we get ...
That's not quite true. I've followed as an onlooker, and I've voiced some opinions myself. Maybe as said it's the unhelpful way some things are being said, not the fact that they're being said at all.

and tuck your tail in between your legs.
Not terribly helpful at all in this situation.

Wayne your a hypocrite.
Given the last threads I have seen, this statement does not seem true, nor does it seem warranted in any way

This is the internet and as any 12 year old has been warned by momma and daddy
I heavily suggest some ... reflection before posting this kind of thing.

Btw, all the staff jobs have been given out for now im sure.... It's ok to speak your mind.
Baiting, unnecessary insinuation

[Corriewf]

First off, there is the time factor, as mentioned by Wayne. Barely 2 weeks and already not only clamouring for the changes but insinuating for no apparent good reason that there won't be any at all?

Statements like these (not mentioning who made them), and my own very personal, uninvolved perceptions of them (right or wrong):

That's not quite true. I've followed as an onlooker, and I've voiced some opinions myself. Maybe as said it's the unhelpful way some things are being said, not the fact that they're being said at all.


Not terribly helpful at all in this situation.


Given the last threads I have seen, this statement does not seem true, nor does it seem warranted in any way


I heavily suggest some ... reflection before posting this kind of thing.


Baiting, unnecessary insinuation

I will agree with you in one aspect, that the original post was blown way out of proportion. I have never been one to spoof up my words to make them nice and pretty, I just ask directly. I know as many for a fact that there was a meeting a week ago. I have been paying attention to the main page, nothing in a while. While many may perceive my words as negative, they actually are not. I could not be anymore direct with my intentions.

[CSS59]

sounds like i'm missing on all the fun since I've been gone :)

[Wayne Luke]

The teams still being put together is interesting, any way to nominate someone even if you're only a member?

There are teams leaders. You can contact them privately. However like I said previously a lot goes into the consideration of the staff chosen. Just because someone is a good coder doesn't mean they are good fit for the current team. Their public posts will be a good indication and current team mates will be allowed to express their opinion. However, not getting a team position isn't a reflection of the person either.

There are ways to contribute and get noticed so when a position opens up, your name could be in the #1 slot. Post your addons, help people, contribute tutorials are some. Being a positive force in the community overall will help you become staff as people leave or the site and teams grow.

[Boofo]

I've been waiting for you too, as you're always in these discussions hehe. The elder has arrived!

Elder? Apparently that doesn't have a whole lot of meaning these days. In my day we listened to and learned from our elders. ;)

[Gio~Logist]

There are teams leaders. You can contact them privately. However like I said previously a lot goes into the consideration of the staff chosen. Just because someone is a good coder doesn't mean they are good fit for the current team. Their public posts will be a good indication and current team mates will be allowed to express their opinion. However, not getting a team position isn't a reflection of the person either.

There are ways to contribute and get noticed so when a position opens up, your name could be in the #1 slot. Post your addons, help people, contribute tutorials are some. Being a positive force in the community overall will help you become staff as people leave or the site and teams grow.


Yes, the contributions is a given :p I was just interested in perhaps promoting someone.

[Corriewf]

Elder? Apparently that doesn't have a whole lot of meaning these days. In my day we listened to and learned from our elders. ;)

If you wouldn't forget in mid sentence what you were saying, we might learn something.

[Gio~Logist]

Elder? Apparently that doesn't have a whole lot of meaning these days. In my day we listened to and learned from our elders. ;)

I try listening to you, but you always seem to teach me the wrong things! Oh and since you're the coding team leader, i publically nominate psionic vision for coding staff :p

If you wouldn't forget in mid sentence what you were saying, we might learn something.

I was going to go with the "Haha's", but i made to many when laughing to actually type them. That was indeed priceless.

[Boofo]

If you wouldn't forget in mid sentence what you were saying, we might learn something.

LOL I remember when I had my first beer, too. You'll be ok in the morning. ;)

[Corriewf]

I try listening to you, but you always seem to teach me the wrong things! Oh and since you're the coding team leader, i publically nominate psionic vision for coding staff :p


Was you telling the kid about your old biker days again? Whatever he says gio... DO NOT RIDE A MOTORCYCLE WHILE DRINING VODKA!

[Gio~Logist]

Was you telling the kid about your old biker days again? Whatever he says gio... DO NOT RIDE A MOTORCYCLE WHILE DRINING VODKA!

I'll try, but i'm kid of gullible and vulnerable due to the age different :confused:

As far as the changes being made here, i've heard some talk about the staff. However, what about the other changes?

This link directory, will it be a classifieds section?

The hack database being one of the projects for the coders team, does this mean no progress was made previously?

[MJM]

Whew! gotta stick my head in a bucket of cold water!
Ahhh that's better.

Energizing!

Now for anyone all fired up and ready to go to work here's a real duzy for you:

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=117272

Sort this one out and not only will you make me eternally grateful ...

I believe it will take vB to a whole level of communications and new markets of opportunity.

Cheers,
Mark

[hambil]

Btw, all the staff jobs have been given out for now im sure.... It's ok to speak your mind.
Trust me, that's the last thing you want right now :)

[jilly]

This isn't the way it has to be and you know it. You want change on the forums, then start it. Want to be treated differently, then start treating others differently. Bring what you want to the table and it will spread.

Good Post Wayne, Good Reminder as always!.. Start with the man/woman/coder/install button clicker in the mirror, eh?

Hostility, Fear, Agression and Intolerance build walls of Suspicion that further separates 'them' from 'us', blocking any useful interaction and leaves us fuming on either side of our wall. With no progress, no resolution, just a bunch of angry geeks leaping up the wall towards each other to hurl a few more nasties over the wall at the other side.. Then a quick stop for Doritos and Mountain Dew..{leaping and yelling uses a lot of energy, dude!}

Respect, Open Active Listening, Patience, Compassion and Tolerance build bridges of Understanding that bring us all together, and we're able to work around our questions and find a central point of understanding that can make everyone work together, solve the issues, and have a kickin' bridge party afterwards..

So, what's your gut feeling? - are you a wall builder or a bridge builder?

Are you really interested in building those bridges, by waiting, asking questions politely, and using positive methods ? Or are you so hot you cant not argue, pick apart statements, fight fight fight ?

EVERYONE has good points in the discussion - i dont dispute that. It's HOW the discussion is handled that is more important. It's how people choose to present themselves and their points.. What you write here speaks volumes of who you really are. Just give it some gentle thought, and decide what do you REALLY want to spend your energy on?

And as a final note, as a site owner myself (as we all are), it is interesting to me to see a 'disagreement' develop here, and watch how it's handled, and what the outcome is. Also a good learning tool for the future.. This happens at least once at everyone's site if you wait long enough :):cool:

[Corriewf]

Trust me, that's the last thing you want right now :)

Why? We are all adults here, you won't hurt my feelings..... Speak your mind.

[Freesteyelz]

Why not speak your mind without being confrontational? For starters, you'll get farther ahead if you'd use a bit of diplomacy. Know when to use an open hand as opposed to the closed fist.

[MJM]

Oh my lordy, a freekin INFRACTION (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1137312#post1137312) system is on it's way.
The downside of fussin cussin and hollerin is that coders have to direct more precious time developing user control mechanisms :(

[EasyTarget]

wayne as an admin or spokesperson and the very person that asked people to treat others as they want to be treated/bring what they want to the table, wouldn't it be better to lead by your example rather than asking others to be the example for you?

your asking people to treat you how you want to be treated before you treat them how they want to be treated, and they're telling themselves the same thing. But since you're the one in authority and are preaching that it is a good practice to follow the golden rule, then practice what you preach :p

There seems to be too many egos around.. what's the big deal with a "I'm sorry" or an "opps, my bad". People keep defending their decisions as if being wrong will have some detrimental effect. If anything I'm guessing a mod being wrong (rather admitting they're wrong) will actually have a positive impact. I've read one thread where a coder's hack thread was pulled, he came back to fix the problem but the thread was gone and then the mod wouldn't put it back unless he was specifically asked to do so by the coder.. even though the coder never asked for it to be pulled.

another where a rule was implemented 'after the fact' and the coders, whos' hacks were now in violation of the rule which didn't exist when they created their hacks, were treated as if they were intentionally trying to bring down vb, misuse trust, or even cause potential security problems.

and several where mods just won't be the bigger person and feel they always have to have the last word before the other person stops posting or just close the thread when its apparent they won't have the last word unless they do so.

As has been mentioned before.. the coders are the lifeblood of this site, Listen to them, cater to them, praise them. If you want change then change yourself, don't expect that adding more people to the staff will change anything. If the problem lies at the top then changing the middle will have little effect.

[peterska2]

the coders are an important part of the site but there are still rules that need.....

... to be followed by every member of the community. policies are adhered to by ...

... staff to ensure that the rules are enforced and are updated on a regular basis.

[Shelley_c]

wayne as an admin or spokesperson and the very person that asked people to treat others as they want to be treated/bring what they want to the table, wouldn't it be better to lead by your example rather than asking others to be the example for you?

your asking people to treat you how you want to be treated before you treat them how they want to be treated, and they're telling themselves the same thing. But since you're the one in authority and are preaching that it is a good practice to follow the golden rule, then practice what you preach :p

There seems to be too many egos around.. what's the big deal with a "I'm sorry" or an "opps, my bad". People keep defending their decisions as if being wrong will have some detrimental effect. If anything I'm guessing a mod being wrong (rather admitting they're wrong) will actually have a positive impact. I've read one thread where a coder's hack thread was pulled, he came back to fix the problem but the thread was gone and then the mod wouldn't put it back unless he was specifically asked to do so by the coder.. even though the coder never asked for it to be pulled.

another where a rule was implemented 'after the fact' and the coders, whos' hacks were now in violation of the rule which didn't exist when they created their hacks, were treated as if they were intentionally trying to bring down vb, misuse trust, or even cause potential security problems.

and several where mods just won't be the bigger person and feel they always have to have the last word before the other person stops posting or just close the thread when its apparent they won't have the last word unless they do so.

As has been mentioned before.. the coders are the lifeblood of this site, Listen to them, cater to them, praise them. If you want change then change yourself, don't expect that adding more people to the staff will change anything. If the problem lies at the top then changing the middle will have little effect.

I'm just quoting this because you seemed to have posted 3 replies (3 minutes apart on each reply ) to bury the last reply kerry. Although I only partially agree with some of the people involved here (and I can certainly understand their fustration) they do have the right to voice their opinion and concerns.

[Freesteyelz]

Here's a curious thought...

To use vB.org is a privilege. Where does the right come in? :D

[peterska2]

shelley_c, the replys are not to bury anything. i'm using wap so cant do long posts.

[Shelley_c]

shelley_c, the replys are not to bury anything. i'm using wap so cant do long posts.

In that case. I apoligise kerry.

[EasyTarget]

useless info photocopied from other threadsmaybe you should leave responses to the admins or customer service staff members.

and shelly, you have cool emoticons... was looking through them the other day.. nice job. they should add install buttons to those as well.

[peterska2]

easytarget, i am still a member of staff and so can reply like any other staff member

[EasyTarget]

I'm just hoping that the separation of the staff into distinct groups was for a reason, but yes, you've shown that you no doubt can reply.

[Shelley_c]

maybe you should leave responses to the admins or customer service staff members.

and shelly, you have cool emoticons... was looking through them the other day.. nice job. they should add install buttons to those as well.

I'll disagree with you EasyTarget for the simple fact that there's simply not enough graphics in the graphics area that warrants an install button. Being the dense person that I am, Am I mistaken that the install button functionality is to allow you to see how many people are using that graphic or hack? In anycase, If that's the case, the attachment count does this already. Again, I'm a little dementiarized so I'm probably very much wrong.

[Corriewf]

They haven't even finished setting up permissions yet or finished filling the teams. There has been nothing to really report. Why announce things before they are ready? A million posts requesting more information won't get it. Not even two weeks have gone by since the announcement of the new staff structure. Certainly that is not an unreasonable amount of time to start building teams. It requires reviewing potential members, talking with them and setting things up.

--------------------------------------------------------
The next part is GENERAL. It isn't directed to one person in particular, just to make that clear. Those causing the problems know who they are and they will know when they read it.

The ongoing behavior on this site suggest otherwise. It seems that all some people want to do is destroy this site and vBulletin and will do everything in your power to do so. You log into chatrooms and attack Jelsoft employees for fun. You do the same to the staff here for your own whims. From now on, it will result in bans. It is stated in the rules, whether you read them or not. The staff have been very lenient but now they are backed into a corner. All this does is contribute to a negative situation which people say they want to resolve. It isn't helping. All it does it make people defensive and quite literally develop a great dislike if not hatred for the people causing the problems. No one here wants to ban people. We truly don't. However if that is what it comes to then it must. People simply can't expect their hundredth warning and a slap on the wrist.

Quite frankly, everytime people cause this crap I have to think hard on whether it would be simply easier to delete the whole site and start from scratch or simply allow commercial addons without the need for this site. However people do rely on the site for their own forums and it is a great resource. People need to stop causing problems simply to do so. It doesn't help anyone in the long run.

Really, you want the staff to be more forthcoming instead of armed to the teeth and sitting in their foxhole, then you need to extend a branch and drop the stupid schoolyard antics and petty fights. It is as simple as that. Sarcastic quips hurt and they are attacks and they should not be tolerated. Don't you remember what your parents taught you? It is probably the most important thing they taught you in your life...

TREAT OTHERS HOW YOU WISH TO BE TREATED.

Want to be treated badly then treat others badly. That is how it works. Want people to accept you and treat you with respect, then do so as well. The last few weeks on this site many have not had any respect but think they deserve it in return. It isn't going to happen. You will be treated like what you are, a spoiled customer who is more trouble than worth.

This isn't the way it has to be and you know it. You want change on the forums, the start it. Want to be treated differently, then start treating others differently. Bring what you want to the table and it will spread.


Ok, now that I have had a good nights sleep and some more introspective thoughts. I have had some time to further analyze the thought process of those whom hold the seats of power in regards of changes here.

There are several aspects of mentality displayed here that make obvious how vital a change really is. I feel like there has been this ever growing "us vs them" mentallity through the years that grows larger and larger as the member base grows larger and larger. I am not pointing fingers, I am making an observation. Maybe when dealing with large masses of people that seem to be asking something from you day in and day out after a while you feel exhausted or burned out, I dunno, that is a theory. But alas there is no one trying to bring down vbulletin.org. If we were, there are way more productive means to do, like starting our own site or utilizing an existing site instead of this one.

Something that has frustrated me is that the only change thus far ( or at least largest change made obvious to members ) is new staff. Now I agree that the site needed it, however I don't think it was a top priority. At the end of the day, there really are not that many members breaking rules around here. The worst offenses are normally something small like posting in the wrong forums, but nothing to warrant making it first on the agenda. I do however agree with whom has been chosen thus far. They are good people. I can't say anything bad about any of them.

Another complex here that seems to trouble me is the " ok kids be a good boy/girl and you will get dessert " response we get. Now I can understand the emphasis in regard to people respecting each other, but do we really have that many people here attacking each other? Or staff for that matter? Maybe my standards of respect is lower then those in power here, but other then the minor bickering here and there, in my eyes we seem to get along well, besides the frustration of lack of communication at times.

My thoughts still have not changed since I posted my first thread. I feel that this site has been thrusted into a business like environment and now the shareholders (contributors) are asking for an update from the executives, ceo,cfo,etc. No one is demanding change right now. We just want to be kept in the loop, to be communicated with, and really, is it that much to ask for. Why, I know that at this hour right now there are probably coders in mutiple countries working hard for hours on coding something just to release it here, maybe today, maybe tomorrow. I think that alone warrants a little time set aside to post a thread *progress update* followed *Ok, heres whats going on thus far.*Even if there is no progress to update us on, just letting us know that it's still on everyone's mind and people are working on it, is sufficient for most of us here.

[Tim Skellett]

... If the problem lies at the top then changing the middle will have little effect.
Does the actual "problem" under discussion lie at the top? I happen to doubt it.

[Gio~Logist]

Does the actual "problem" under discussion lie at the top? I happen to doubt it.

It is good that you are stating your opinion. However, why not mention the problem that you think does lie on the top?

I'll disagree with you EasyTarget for the simple fact that there's simply not enough graphics in the graphics area that warrants an install button. Being the dense person that I am, Am I mistaken that the install button functionality is to allow you to see how many people are using that graphic or hack? In anycase, If that's the case, the attachment count does this already. Again, I'm a little dementiarized so I'm probably very much wrong.

For a graphic, people may just look at it because it's to small in the thumbnail, adding to the attachment count. The install button is if people actually use the work you created.

I'm just hoping that the separation of the staff into distinct groups was for a reason, but yes, you've shown that you no doubt can reply.

Yes, that's what we are all hoping at the moment.

easytarget, i am still a member of staff and so can reply like any other staff member

Peter - I agree that you are part of the staff and therefore should be able to post just like any other staff member, but your views on the subject aren't to promising - at least not for me. Don't get me wrong, you are a great person and i have no problem with you (you are one of the only women here, and the testosterone level can be to overwhelming.). But i've found that your views are more or less along the lines of "Coders come and go, if you leave then more will come. Bye Bye". I can't say i agree with that to much.

[bairy]

But i've found that your views are more or less along the lines of "Coders come and go, if you leave then more will come. Bye Bye". I can't say i agree with that to much.
In raw terms that's true isn't it? Coders, like members, do come and go, and all you can really say is "thanks for all your contributions, bye". It's the same across all community based websites.
Saying something like that isn't necessarily saying "and I don't care about them cos there will always be someone to keep this site going", or dismissing them as being instantly replacable robots, it's merely stating what I would as being a valid point.

[Gio~Logist]

In raw terms that's true isn't it? Coders, like members, do come and go, and all you can really say is "thanks for all your contributions, bye". It's the same across all community based websites.
Saying something like that isn't necessarily saying "and I don't care about them cos there will always be someone to keep this site going", or dismissing them as being instantly replacable robots, it's merely stating what I see as a valid point.

Actually, it's not the same at all. Even in a community website, i do not have the same views. If a member is leaving one of my websites, i'd like to know why. Once i find the problem, i would try and solve it in order to prevent the re-occurrence of this event due to that problem.

Members on sites do come and go. If it's a problem that makes them come and go, most will go and then those who come will also soon go. The ratio will soon decrease.

If a coder or designer on this site goes, more than just him goes. His support for hacks, his contribution to the site, etc. all goes. Every time one leaves, the community "economy (if you will)" drops just a bit as well, even if it's less than a %. So far there have been more leaving than coming. Those that would come see things like this and decide not to come. Even people who have thought about buying another vb license have not because of events like this.

You do the math, is it really a cycle.. or is it becoming an epidemic?

[MJM]

Plugins was one of the best things Jelsoft did for this site because it made it so much easier for incompetents like me to utlilze the mods that coders have provided, of which I am very grateful. Without them, I would not have the same admiration of this product.

I don't think (?) Jelsoft has used the plugin system (yet) to provide accessory mods/functions/features so I'm curious to see where this will go.

I have very few mods installed but have read comments in the 3.6 beta discussion forum ... such as ... "great! one more hack I won't need to use"

So in this respect I'm hopeful to see a strong forging of relationships between the coders who incept the idea and demonstrate popularity of the mod from # of installs. This is a valuable tool for Jelsoft in determining what it's customers want.

Mark

[soniceffect]

Sorry but ..... hehe .. this post is hilarious LOL

One day people will realise just how much you are repeating yourselfs continuously and quit doing so. Personally I would like to post my opinions as a 'non staff' member, a 'non coding' member, just a general member reading these posts.

In my opinion there is nothing more happening here than impatience.... When there is going to be a change, people can, and will get impatient. When we were awaiting 3.5 there was the same thing, all be it in a contructive manner, but there was still a post every 20 seconds with someone saying when is the next beta, when is gold etc etc etc.

One of these days people will realise that in the end, the only people who can change a bulletin board of any kind, regardless of who are staff and who are not, are the members. The people who are on here day in a day out. If ya got members +++++in permanantly, you`ll have a +++++ of a board. If ya got members havin a laugh, you`ll have a laugh of a board, if ya got people being serious all the time, you`ll have a serious board. In aint a hard conclusion really is it????

Given that I'm actually supprised that these kind of discussions can come from forum where there are more people that know how bulletin boards work, than know how to cook there own lunch. Before you post, why not think to yourself ...'Is this really helping, or am I making it worse?' ...

[Gio~Logist]

Sorry but ..... hehe .. this post is hilarious LOL

One day people will realise just how much you are repeating yourselfs continuously and quit doing so. Personally I would like to post my opinions as a 'non staff' member, a 'non coding' member, just a general member reading these posts.

In my opinion there is nothing more happening here than impatience.... When there is going to be a change, people can, and will get impatient. When we were awaiting 3.5 there was the same thing, all be it in a contructive manner, but there was still a post every 20 seconds with someone saying when is the next beta, when is gold etc etc etc.

One of these days people will realise that in the end, the only people who can change a bulletin board of any kind, regardless of who are staff and who are not, are the members. The people who are on here day in a day out. If ya got members +++++in permanantly, you`ll have a +++++ of a board. If ya got members havin a laugh, you`ll have a laugh of a board, if ya got people being serious all the time, you`ll have a serious board. In aint a hard conclusion really is it????

Given that I'm actually supprised that these kind of discussions can come from forum where there are more people that know how bulletin boards work, than know how to cook there own lunch. Before you post, why not think to yourself ...'Is this really helping, or am I making it worse?' ...

Your post is appreciated and your opinion is as well. We all know how a site in general works, but we also know a lot more about this site and what's been going on than others.. which is why out patience is very limited now. You may know about what you see in threads and such. However, we go based on everything that goes on here as well as everything we find out off of the site.

[soniceffect]

However, we go based on everything that goes on here as well as everything we find out off of the site.

This is however a conversation about the site. If it`s about things off the site, is it not better to keep it off the site.

member element:- There are members on here (myself included) who do not know, or care for that matter about the off site politics behind it all. Every single one of you posting agrees one with one thing, you all want the site to work and be a good one. So....

Site element:- All people are doing by having slangin matches on the forums, and contributing to the problem.

Coding element:- I may not be a coder on here, however I do code and I appreciate that people want respect, commercial sections, recognition, security guarantee and all the rest, however people leaving, +++++ing, and most of all giving the staff less time to sort the problems through having to reply to petty posts on the forums if not gonna achieve anything at all.

In short .. will you all stop arguing for god sake.

[bairy]

If a coder or designer on this site goes, more than just him goes. His support for hacks, his contribution to the site, etc. all goes. Every time one leaves, the community "economy (if you will)" drops just a bit as well, even if it's less than a %. So far there have been more leaving than coming. Those that would come see things like this and decide not to come. Even people who have thought about buying another vb license have not because of events like this.

In the case of a site like this you're absolutely right and I hadn't taken things like support & updates into account. My underlying statement still stands but I accept it isn't quite as simple as that, and thus I see why there is upset over staff members saying such a thing.

I'd also agree that the current situation may well be both driving people away and discouraging new people.

I have loosely followed this whole thing from the first major complaint, though JumpD's actions (which frankly I don't blame him for), the codeout idea etc.


There is one thing I would like to say to the staff which is that a message that keeps coming is from you "we need time".
I think one of the major complaints is that you've had ample months where things have been gradually going wrong and although it's been denied that there were problems, there were. I personally remember being horrified at the way the ibp arcade removal from HOTM was handled for example. The message was basically "we've decided now, we don't want anyone's input anymore and if anyone else mentions it we're gonna get really pissed so just be quiet". Most of us are admins and we understand the difference between being troublesome members and giving helpful input so to get a reply like that would be insulting.
Also, I don't keep a close tab on Site Feedback but I have made the odd suggestion which was answered rather bluntly then seemingly ignored. It wasn't a major thing, I know that and I'm not terribly bothered about it, but if that's the kinda attitude that was/is adopted then I can see why people are getting annoyed and I can see where the "us vs them" phrase is coming from.
Then you have to remember that the only way this all got started is when people started a roit after polite requests got them nowhere, and that causes ill feeling everywhere: The staff feel backed into a corner and the coders feel they have to start protesting in ways they really didn't want to employ.

Basically my whole point is that this has been a long time coming. I think you've had warning of it and even if you haven't, with so many admins you really ought to have noticed and started correcting problems a long time ago.
I also think closing threads and saying "next person to slag off the staff gets banned" is only going to increase the tension, which makes more people angry, which means more posts, which means less time to get on with the tasks at hand, which [repeat]. I can kinda see the logic behind that rule but you have to see how it comes across.
That's not to say there isn't a little too much hostility by some of the non-staff, there may well be, but truthfully, it's difficult to blame them.


To be fair though, I do think the staff need time as there is so much to do.


I think the staff and coders alike just want thing to settle down and everyone to get along enough to progress the site and give even more great input to make vB even better. At least that's what I hope, for everyone's sake.

[Gio~Logist]

This is however a conversation about the site. If it`s about things off the site, is it not better to keep it off the site.

member element:- There are members on here (myself included) who do not know, or care for that matter about the off site politics behind it all. Every single one of you posting agrees one with one thing, you all want the site to work and be a good one. So....

Site element:- All people are doing by having slangin matches on the forums, and contributing to the problem.

Coding element:- I may not be a coder on here, however I do code and I appreciate that people want respect, commercial sections, recognition, security guarantee and all the rest, however people leaving, +++++ing, and most of all giving the staff less time to sort the problems through having to reply to petty posts on the forums if not gonna achieve anything at all.

In short .. will you all stop arguing for god sake.

When i say off the site, i mean things we learn about the site, even if we don't learn it on the site.

I agree with some of the things you've said, but i just can't seem to comprehend how you can come out of no where and try and judge the situation so heavily. No one is "bit-----". We are not little 5 year olds asking mommy for an allowance. We are asking for an update on what we were promised and some results so far, as well as some other things.

[Kihon Kata]

it made it so much easier for incompetents like me to utlilze the mods that coders have provided

Hi, I'm Kihon Kata and I am an incompetent.
(Phew, first step out of the way)

I agree and can admit I am one of these. I love this site and this thread of repetition. hehe

[MJM]

A good # of vb customers have staked their life's passions (:)) (worth more than any money can buy), and financial livelihood using this software.

This is why I have full confidence that members here and vB.com/.org will strive to ensure that this service continues to be provided in a professional manner.

[Gio~Logist]

In the case of a site like this you're absolutely right and I hadn't taken things like support & updates into account. My underlying statement still stands but I accept it isn't quite as simple as that, and thus I see why there is upset over staff members saying such a thing.

I'd also agree that the current situation may well be both driving people away and discouraging new people.

I have loosely followed this whole thing from the first major complaint, though JumpD's actions (which frankly I don't blame him for), the codeout idea etc.


There is one thing I would like to say to the staff which is that a message that keeps coming is from you "we need time".
I think one of the major complaints is that you've had ample months where things have been gradually going wrong and although it's been denied that there were problems, there were. I personally remember being horrified at the way the ibp arcade removal from HOTM was handled for example. The message was basically "we've decided now, we don't want anyone's input anymore and if anyone else mentions it we're gonna get really pissed so just be quiet". Most of us are admins and we understand the difference between being troublesome members and giving helpful input so to get a reply like that would be insulting.
Also, I don't keep a close tab on Site Feedback but I have made the odd suggestion which was answered rather bluntly then seemingly ignored. It wasn't a major thing, I know that and I'm not terribly bothered about it, but if that's the kinda attitude that was/is adopted then I can see why people are getting annoyed and I can see where the "us vs them" phrase is coming from.
Then you have to remember that the only way this all got started is when people started a roit after polite requests got them nowhere, and that causes ill feeling everywhere: The staff feel backed into a corner and the coders feel they have to start protesting in ways they really didn't want to employ.

Basically my whole point is that this has been a long time coming. I think you've had warning of it and even if you haven't, with so many admins you really ought to have noticed and started correcting problems a long time ago.
I also think closing threads and saying "next person to slag off the staff gets banned" is only going to increase the tension, which makes more people angry, which means more posts, which means less time to get on with the tasks at hand, which [repeat]. I can kinda see the logic behind that rule but you have to see how it comes across.
That's not to say there isn't a little too much hostility by some of the non-staff, there may well be, but truthfully, it's difficult to blame them.


To be fair though, I do think the staff need time as there is so much to do.


I think the staff and coders alike just want thing to settle down and everyone to get along enough to progress the site and give even more great input to make vB even better. At least that's what I hope, for everyone's sake.


I'm glad i was able to influence your opinion and you were able to hear me out as oppose to being narrow minded. That is appreciated.

[Tim Skellett]

It is good that you are stating your opinion. However, why not mention the problem that you think does lie on the top?
Because I already did, albeit diplomatically, but I will do it again, if you insist.

This thread is the result of a closed thread. Nothing new has been said or asked on this thread, instead there is only cynical impatience combined with some baiting going on.

What I see here is there are problems with organization and some policies of the vb org site, granted, but they are being tackled. Changes have been announced, large changes are being implemented, and so let's give them time to actually implement those changes. I am not happy about some things, I find the ... small mess surrounding Erwin's resignation an awkward affair that could have been handled better, but on the whole IMHO vb org is a great site and the staff here do a good job. No-one is being persecuted here, people get to say their mind.

What I do not see here is willingness from you or a couple of others to give them the time, and most especially willingness to give them normal decent courtesy; instead, at least two very recent threads constituting only mere "let's give the admin a hard time and take a slam at those disagreeing at the same time" --- and you haven't given any real reasons for not being willing to grant time nor courtesy. IOW, I suspect egotism only.

So how about answering my question, which I asked way before; just what exactly do you hope to accomplish with all of this, and what do you think can be accomplished, and how?

I will add to my post above:

My apologies, gio~logist, if you feel I am being unfair to you.
It is simply enormously frustrating to see people slamming others without giving good reasons for it, and dragging down the atmosphere, all with no clear goal and no clear justification.

[Gio~Logist]

Because I already did, albeit diplomatically, but I will do it again, if you insist.

This thread is the result of a closed thread. Nothing new has been said or asked on this thread, instead there is only cynical impatience combined with some baiting going on.

What I see here is there are problems with organization and some policies of the vb org site, granted, but they are being tackled. Changes have been announced, large changes are being implemented, and so let's give them time to actually implement those changes. I am not happy about some things, I find the ... small mess surrounding Erwin's resignation an awkward affair that could have been handled better, but on the whole IMHO vb org is a great site and the staff here do a good job. No-one is being persecuted here, people get to say their mind.

What I do not see here is willingness from you or a couple of others to give them the time, and most especially willingness to give them normal decent courtesy; instead, at least two very recent threads constituting only mere "let's give the admin a hard time and take a slam at those disagreeing at the same time" --- and you haven't given any real reasons for not being willing to grant time nor courtesy. IOW, I suspect egotism only.

So how about answering my question, which I asked way before; just what exactly do you hope to accomplish with all of this, and what do you think can be accomplished, and how?

Very well, i will answer your question as well as make a statement to your comments.

Willingness from me or a couple of others? If you have seen me in any discussions, i do not take a side. I actually try and find good in both. I know how to give courtesy and also knwo when it is needed. I am patient and willing, just looking for an update.

The purpose of this thread? The purpose of this thread was not for anyone to jump down anyone's throat. So far i've been very open minded IMO and so have various other people. That was the purpose of this thread. For people to speak their mind and do so in a peaceful manner. Which is also what has been accomplished so far. But let me ask you this, what have you accomplished with your post? The purpose of this thread is not to make enemies, but to hear each other out. I've heard you out and taken everything you said into perspective, why not do the same in return and be a bit more open minded?

My apologies, gio~logist, if you feel I am being unfair to you.
It is simply enormously frustrating to see people slamming others without giving good reasons for it, and dragging down the atmosphere, all with no clear goal and no clear justification.

That's fine, don't sweat it :p I understand that things are a bit tense in here and as i am the thread starter, i am willing to be the punching bag hehe. Just don't punch to hard, i'm to young to die!

[Tim Skellett]

....The purpose of this thread? The purpose of this thread was now for anyone to jump down anyone's throat.
But let me ask you this, what have you accomplished with your post?
Well then, I would say I've fulfilled the purpose of the thread by doing some jumping down throats myself. ;) :p

[MJM]

Hi, I'm Kihon Kata and I am an incompetent.
(Phew, first step out of the way)

I agree and can admit I am one of these. I love this site and this thread of repetition. hehe

Hi Kihon, I'm an incompetent by choice ;)
... and I manage by delegating anything to do with installs to my more significant semi-incompetent partner :)
(and if my car needs ANY work a mechanic does it.)

I get the fun part of fiddling with switches in the AdminCP and running the site.
It is also my task to check into the support sites for the various applications we use, keep up to date with any software developments and to look for and check out any mods that member coders have contributed.

In this respect however imcompetent I/we may (justifiably) feel in the eye of a coder, I know that we can contribute towards the fermentation of ideas and through an understanding of how the mod must perform in practical terms.
Ultimately it is the admin/user who will decide on the competence of a coders ability to provide what they need.

For this reason our role is essential.

Mark

[EasyTarget]

So how about answering my question, which I asked way before; just what exactly do you hope to accomplish with all of this, and what do you think can be accomplished, and how?I hope that the people at the top will see that their attitude, responses and actions filter down through the staff system and down to the members. I hope that the staff will only respond when necessary and with calmess, patience and maturity.. making sure their response leaves a good image of not only themselves but of .org as a whole.

I think this can be accomplished by letting discussions like this occur, only reacting differently than in the past, as wayne stated (but did not show) treating others how you'd like to be treated. I think once the top start embodying the characteristics that they hope us all to have, then we will, for the most part, do the same.

For me its not about what's being worked on as far as hacks and additions to the site, is about having good leadership and fellowship among the staff and coders and members, because if you don't have that then it won't matter what you have here, no one will feel welcomed nor part of the community.

If a member makes a public attack toward a staff member maybe a better response instead of getting defensive would be, "I'm sorry you feel that way, how can I rectify the problem?" or "I'm sorry you understood it that way, I did not mean for it to come across that way, I apologize", "You're right, we could have handled that better. In the future we will try to avoid this again, what can we do now to fix the problem?"

[Corriewf]

Guys...guys....guys.... Think of it this way, if you asked your boss for a raise and he said he would think about it and never got back to you, you would ask him after a while wouldn't you..... Well, that is all we are asking here. No one is saying gimme gimme gimme now! We just want to know what is going on? What are some ideas floating around behind closed doors?

I know that if I was running a site and this happened, I would go through the process with my members to make sure that most felt their needs are met. I am a big actions above words kind of guy and if the staff here truely care about having happy members. they would seek their input right?

That is all it is folks.... No bashing... No finger pointing.... No gimmie gimmie gimmie.... Just communication.

[Gio~Logist]

Well then, I would say I've fulfilled the purpose of the thread by doing some jumping down throats myself. ;) :p

Haha :p That "now" was supposed to be a "not".

[Gio~Logist]

I hope that the people at the top will see that their attitude, responses and actions filter down through the staff system and down to the members. I hope that the staff will only respond when necessary and with calmess, patience and maturity.. making sure their response leaves a good image of not only themselves but of .org as a whole.

I think this can be accomplished by letting discussions like this occur, only reacting differently than in the past, as wayne stated (but did not show) treating others how you'd like to be treated. I think once the top start embodying the characteristics that they hope us all to have, then we will, for the most part, do the same.

For me its not about what's being worked on as far as hacks and additions to the site, is about having good leadership and fellowship among the staff and coders and members, because if you don't have that then it won't matter what you have here, no one will feel welcomed nor part of the community.

If a member makes a public attack toward a staff member maybe a better response instead of getting defensive would be, "I'm sorry you feel that way, how can I rectify the problem?" or "I'm sorry you understood it that way, I did not mean for it to come across that way, I apologize", "You're right, we could have handled that better. In the future we will try to avoid this again, what can we do now to fix the problem?"

Well said. As for public attacks, i just try to always end it with some humor along with understanding :p

I understand the purpose of your post, but don't ever post again. You see what i mean, i never fail! Hehe :p

[Tim Skellett]

......If a member makes a public attack toward a staff member maybe a better response instead of getting defensive would be, "I'm sorry you feel that way, how can I rectify the problem?" or "I'm sorry you understood it that way, I did not mean for it to come across that way, I apologize", "You're right, we could have handled that better. In the future we will try to avoid this again, what can we do now to fix the problem?"
I've often seen this theory, but I can't say that I think it's valid. Demanding that staff bend over backwards in the face of what are mere personal attacks is a kind of "Blame the victim" POV that in my experience only leads to more attacks. It's also very unfair indeed; if someone -- anyone, including admin, coders, mere members --- makes unprovoked and unnecessary personal attacks, then they damn well out to be called out for it, IMHO, and as for a response from the victim, I am all for natural justice. The victim is human too and has just as much right to speak their own minds. No-one including staff is meant to be the whipping-boys of anyone having a bad day.

One thing that I have not seen here is routine dismissiveness, arrogance or nastiness from the staff here (I have seen suchlike on other sites), so personally attacking staff here just for the purpose of getting one's rocks off should not be allowed to pass by uncalled-out. Furthermore, making comments on their reactions that could easily be perceived as being patronising and condescending only adds to their frustration --- and to be extremely blunt, however important the coders are, the staff are absolutely vital. So senseless +++++ing and ragging at them only serves to damage this whole site and us all.

I am happy enough to see harsh criticism of wrongful staff and wrongful staff actions, but I don't see that here; just goal-less, direction-less hassling.

[bairy]

.....If a member makes a public attack toward a staff member maybe a better response instead of getting defensive would be [snip]

Demanding that staff bend over backwards in the face of what are mere personal attacks is a kind of "Blame the victim" POV that in my experience only leads to more attacks.

I don't see it quite that way.
Yes, personal public attacks are bad, of course, and they shouldn't happen, and it's possible that the attacker will re-read their post later and realise they went over the top.
But if someone is so worked up that they feel it necessary to make such a post then you have to ask why, and you have to try and rectify it. Responding with something like "say something nasty against us again and you'll be banned" is only going to make things worse. Telling people to do as they're damn well told and be happy is not going to help the situation.
One of the roles of admin is to take the crap and try to resolve it, not compound it. By resolving it calmly and neatly, that admin looks good and the original poster will look not so good and may even say "hey you know, I'm sorry I said those things, I was just really upset. And it has the bonus effect of making the admin look accessible and open to suggestion which puts everyone else at ease.


One thing that I have not seen here is routine dismissiveness, arrogance or nastiness from the staff here (I have seen suchlike on other sites)

I'm not a heavy .org surfer and I've seen at least 2 instances of dismissiveness, a few instances of arrogance and even nastiness (provoked perhaps, but read below). As I said earlier, it isn't a case of disgruntled tantrum-based newbies, we're mostly admins here and most know how to construct a proper argument. When it comes to the point where multiple people are removing their hacks and threatening to stop participating on the site - it can't be just kneejerk/tantrum based.

With some of the actions I've seen by admin, I geniunely can see why people get upset.

That's not to say all staff actions are bad, by any means. Sometimes there are pleasant responses, and day-to-day-wise a lot of the behind the scene stuff is very beneficial. I personally think the site is in good shape overall, minus some hack organisation and attitudes of certain people and I think there are a lot of innovative features and the site in it's current site is pretty well built.
But all that doesn't give staff the leeway to be dictator-like.

[Corriewf]

I am happy enough to see harsh criticism of wrongful staff and wrongful staff actions, but I don't see that here; just goal-less, direction-less hassling.

I think you are personally baiting! I want you to quote someone's post that is hassling a staff member. I want you to back up your opinion.

[EasyTarget]

I've often seen this theory, but I can't say that I think it's valid. Demanding that staff bend over backwards in the face of what are mere personal attacks is a kind of "Blame the victim" POV that in my experience only leads to more attacks. It's also very unfair indeed; if someone -- anyone, including admin, coders, mere members --- makes unprovoked and unnecessary personal attacks,....
I don't think I said anything about personal attacks, rather public attacks, and I guess I should clarify so that you don't think I mean unprovoked. What I was trying to describe does not compare to the situation you've painted. In the situation you've put forth, then yes, there's no need to give attention to a user such as that.

I was more going for a situation like what I see happening here now. Many people upset over double standards, mishandling of small situations causing escalation, inablity to be objective, and ego trips by admins/mods. They should be held to a higher standard, that's part of the job. They no longer represent just themselves but a company (to some point) and a community. What I'm trying to describe should be common-sense practice, but apparently has been overlooked because of hurt feelings and bruised egos.

[akanevsky]

I agree with some of the points from both sides, but let me clarify that in detail.

FIRST
Attacks, whether humorous or not, have no place in diplomatic discussions, because naturally, the only thing that may be the outcome is bitterness among staff members and unwillingness to come forth and meet the requests that are being posted. Therefore, I (and others) should not have attacked the staff in the other thread in the first place. I admit that.

SECOND
I certainly do not appreciate the way staff handles tense situations. Just before I say anything else, let me point out that we open complaint threads for a reason, and trust me - regardless of what your impression is, most of us only wish the best for this community. If we did not, we would not even bother making threads and attempting to pressure staff into bringing about positive changes, would we?

When I say one below, I am referring to
(any)one of those staff members that handle disputes
around here. One is not intended to be
personal in any way, and should not be taken as such.

At times too often, we, members, do take an improper tone when creating these threads. One, however, has the advantageous ability to punish (by banning, etc.), and one knows it. Therefore, instead of panicking, deleting posts, throwing out threats, being rude, and thus lowering oneself to the level of the opposing party, one should behave in tense situations as the bigger person - calmly and professionally - which is what is we expect from a solid administrator of a solid site. That would effectively make the other party understand the situation, turn down the heat, prevent one and Jelsoft from looking bad, and, futhermore, create a high probability of the other party apologizing and creating increasingly peaceful posts in the future. One can always ban later on if required, there is no need to yell about it.

On the other hand, if one handles situations as one currently does here at vb.org, one dramatically turns up the heat, effectively making oneself and Jelsoft look bad, and creating a high probability that more increasingly bitter posts will follow. Instead of ensuring peace (which, I suppose, is what one wants), one ensures that just the opposite will be continued. As a result, the probability that members, and among them valuable contributors to the community, will leave the site without ever being banned by one, thus eventually harming the community as a whole, and, most importantly, the company that owns this community. One says something about "behaving the way you want others to behave"? Well, Wayne, nothing personal, but... since you are the one who said that one should behave as one wants others to, why don't you (and every other member of the staff), instead of deleting posts, throwing out threats, being rude, and otherwise showing bad example, please take on the initative of doing otherwise?

[Mark.B]

Please everyone can all this arguing be stopped?

It keeps going on and on, thread after thread. Things are never going to be perfect on a site like this, all of us are admins in our own right and we of all people should really know this.

New licence holders coming here now, I despair for what they see and what they think of it.

I have great sympathy for both sides' points of view, but as things are, it isn't ever going to get resolved to mutual satisfaction. I would urge those who can do so to try and compromise, accept flaws in the other side, and carry on with the site. (That's coders AND staff). I would also urge anyone who doesn't feel able to do so, to back away from the site gracefully, sad as that will be.

As a vB user I greatly appreciate the efforts of ALL - staff and coders alike - please do not let this "war" carry on any longer.

For most this is a hobby. Take an honest look at yourselves, and if it seems that it's got a bit more serious than a hobby and it's all a bit much, please step back for a bit.

I come to this site for modifications and modification discussion. All there is the last month or so is all out war. Those involved may not realise how unseemly it looks.

[EasyTarget]

the arguing has seemed to simmer down imo.. appears to be more an open dialog. I hope it continues so there's an actual resolution instead of sweeping the issues under the rug.

[Ramsesx]

Sorry to say that, but for me it's looking that some people were expecting to get staff members and because this doesn't happen are mortally offended about this. :rolleyes:

[Tim Skellett]

I think you are personally baiting!
< insert one million :rolleyes: smilies here >
I want you to quote someone's post that is hassling a staff member. I want you to back up your opinion.
Go back and re-read this post far earlier in the thread (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=995676&postcount=25).

Much more of these things and I'm going to suggest that we have an enforced moratorium on "You Folks Suck, Nyah nayh nyah" -type threads; it's simply destructive with no redeeming value at this time.

[soniceffect]

I agree with some of the things you've said, but i just can't seem to comprehend how you can come out of no where and try and judge the situation so heavily.

I`m sorry but I disagree with that comment entirely. The comment don`t judge a book by it`s cover springs to mind. Just because my post count is not 2000+ does not mean I dont read the majority of the threads here, and as a member of the forums I have every right to judge a situation as heavily as I choose in a diplomatic way, the same as any other member. This is the kind of comment that only adds to the "Usergroup Vs Usergroup" mentality that everyone is trying to stop.

Dont get me wrong, I aint on anyones 'side' be it staffs, members, coders, people who was comercial, whatever. Its just from reading the posts, it just doesn`t seem like anyone gives it enough time for things to change before the subjects get jumped on again.

< insert one million :) smilies here >

What can I say.. I couldn`t agree more :)

[Freesteyelz]

No one is saying gimme gimme gimme now!

Maybe not but the way it's coming across is suggesting otherwise.

[Ohiosweetheart]

I am treating you with the same respect that you give me and all the staff here. Sorry but if the shoe fits. That is all I really have to say about the matter. At this point, I honestly don't care whether you like me or not or want to associate with me. Want to bring things out in the open, then so be it.

If you were truly indignant about my private message, then you would have kept it private instead of showing it proudly just to prove how persecuted you are. And the only reason your post was quoted is because the link added it for some reason and I forgot to delete it. The Private Message is about more than that one post, but your general attitude in general.

And yes, the cursing was out of line. I apologize for that. It is just very frustrating that whenever I get a little time to be with my wife, something is happening on this site that pulls me away. Now I have a pissed wife and am awaiting a very unpleasant evening.

Wow... you're being patient Wayne. A member on MY site quoting a pm for all to see, whether the pm is from a member or staff, gets an IMMEDIATE ban.

Here's a curious thought...

To use vB.org is a privilege. Where does the right come in? :D

agreed. The only time you have a "right", imo, is if you own the site. All the rest is just a privilege

Please everyone can all this arguing be stopped?

It keeps going on and on, thread after thread. Things are never going to be perfect on a site like this, all of us are admins in our own right and we of all people should really know this.

New licence holders coming here now, I despair for what they see and what they think of it.

I have great sympathy for both sides' points of view, but as things are, it isn't ever going to get resolved to mutual satisfaction. I would urge those who can do so to try and compromise, accept flaws in the other side, and carry on with the site. (That's coders AND staff). I would also urge anyone who doesn't feel able to do so, to back away from the site gracefully, sad as that will be.

As a vB user I greatly appreciate the efforts of ALL - staff and coders alike - please do not let this "war" carry on any longer.

For most this is a hobby. Take an honest look at yourselves, and if it seems that it's got a bit more serious than a hobby and it's all a bit much, please step back for a bit.

I come to this site for modifications and modification discussion. All there is the last month or so is all out war. Those involved may not realise how unseemly it looks.

VERY well said!

Sorry to say that, but for me it's looking that some people were expecting to get staff members and because this doesn't happen are mortally offended about this. :rolleyes:
Though some have said this is not the case... to me and many, MANY others, it does appear that way. "I wasn't chosen to be on staff and I'm jealous because some who were chosen aren't as good as I am" does seem to be the attitude.
And the "things aren't happening as fast as I want them to" and "we're not being told what's going on fast enough" attitudes are getting OH so tiresome. Impatient people who can't give the new staff time to get settled into their new positions, who seemingly want to KEEP things stirred up, are nothing short of childish.

Newsflash... The teams are still being assembled... that's been posted many times over. But, sorry to say, for those who wanted to be team members, and who keep posting these moronic threads, your chances of being a team member are getting slimmer by the day. Your fault and noone else's ;)