Obama to close Guantanamo Bay

[smacklan]

But Sam, those people have had and are having trials. Ones that have been found to have been detained without evidence of guilt have been released...and many of them, once released, have gone right back to their violent ways. I understand your point, really I do and believe me I'm not keen to relinquish any of my rights either but in today's day and age given the history of events do you not think it would be wise of us to err on the side of caution and not be so quick to expose ourselves to annihilation when there may be some possible way to prevent it?

[KevinL]

Let me come to your home because you fit a profile but never really did anything. Then lock you up for years without ever doing anything. All the while torturing you, for never really doing anything....yeah I probably wouldn't be to happy either. I might even sue. Or hate the country....

[smacklan]

Originally Posted by KevinL

Let me come to your home because you fit a profile but never really did anything. Then lock you up for years without ever doing anything. All the while torturing you, for never really doing anything....yeah I probably wouldn't be to happy either. I might even sue. Or hate the country....

Please do tell us exactly how many of those there actually came to be in that place based on your scenario...I'd really like to see some facts to back up that claim.

[iogames]

By closing Gitmo, Obama is accepting 'wrongdoing'... so acceptance from the government is stated... great move Obama! :up:

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Originally Posted by smacklan

Please do tell us exactly how many of those there actually came to be in that place based on your scenario...I'd really like to see some facts to back up that claim.

That is turning things upside down. As many already stated in this thread, our system works the opposite way: It has to be proven that you are guilty.

So instead of asking for proof that some are innocent, you should ask for proof that all are guilty.

[smacklan]

Originally Posted by Marco van Herwaarden

That is turning things upside down. As many already stated in this thread, our system works the opposite way: It has to be proven that you are guilty.

So instead of asking for proof that some are innocent, you should ask for proof that all are guilty.

Marco, his comment was a generalization that all who were/are there came to be there under those circumstances he stated so my challenge is valid. It is that line of thinking that is the problem. Our system is designed so that all are innocent until proven guilty but the system also provides the ability to detain until that determination is made. Granted, the right to a speedy trial has not been afforded them but they also are not US citizens therefore they do not have those rights. I suppose, in the end, that is the issue for those for and those against this facility. International law versus US law. I am for detaining them under international law but not for applying US law to their status as they are not citizens of my country.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

I don't think anybody in this thread ever claimed that all prisoners at Gitmo are innocent. There are people there that should be in prison, no doubt. But that should be determined by a judge.

Both international and US laws require a timely trial. Keeping someone in prison without any charges for years is not allowed in most countries and also not in international laws.

Granted, the right to a speedy trial has not been afforded them but they also are not US citizens therefore they do not have those rights.

And i think it is this attitude that makes the USA not the most friendly country (mildy put) in the eyes of those living outside the USA.

So if they are not a citizen of the USA, they are 2nd grade humans?

[Shelley_c]

Originally Posted by digital jedi

Shelly, why do you assume that just because we believe that everyone is entitled to a fair trial, the none of us have ever been the victim of some terrible event--or terrorism? Why do you assume that just because someone is a victim, then they must be out for blood at all costs? That's a terribly faulty presumption. You've stereotyped living victims of 9-11/Iraq War as revenge taking, blood thirsty, eye-for-an-eye ... well, terrorists. And I don't think they would appreciate that one bit.

Really, I've now stereotyped living victims of 9/11. Noooooo. I think you've just plain forgotten, back then we were in shock, are we now not in shock anymore? oh,hold on.... many years have passed it's a little less important now and we should just simply forget, after all the families affected, directly affected have moved on. Yeah, course they have. I don't stereotype anything. Like I stated. It's all very well having your high morales, and waving the hand of justice and fairplay but you'll never have to worry about direct terrorism. Maybe you will, we will see. You messiah may spread the word of love and feel dialogue and treating these animals with kids loves but you may be feeling the repercussions.

I'm not sure why your showing me those pictures, There's nothing new that will shock me or make me feel they are victims. Heck, Most of you americans aren't even victims yet your good at defending the terrorists that kill your neighbours, the hardworking man/woman.

And lets just have a re-cap. You've released terrorists. They have gone back to terrorism and plotting the next attack whether it's in america, uk or anywhere else in this world. Yes? Does that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside? should it? yes it should. Your not directly been affect and probably never will.

Anyway, Like i said, you think times were hard, it will get harder.

[smacklan]

Originally Posted by Marco van Herwaarden

And i think it is this attitude that makes the USA not the most friendly country (mildy put) in the eyes of those living outside the USA.

So if they are not a citizen of the USA, they are 2nd grade humans?

No, they are just not afforded the rights of US citizenship. Do I demand the same rights afforded citizens of your country? Do I view your country as not friendly because I don't have your rights? Do I view anyone as a 2nd grade human because they are not a US citizen, of course not...that is a strawman argument

[The Geek]

But smack... we are talking about internationally recognised human rights. Illegally and indefinitely incarcerating people without due process is a violation of basic human rights regardless of how much hot air is used to justify the fact. I respect you guys have your own views, just disappointed that you believe human rights are only afforded to humans that you don't harbour suspicion about.

Leadership takes balls and courage. This could come back to bite Obama in the ass, however at least he has the spine to put his money where his mouth is and enact change. That is what he was elected to do and right or wrong, he is doing it. In this day and age, I take my hat off (if I was wearing one) to any politician that does that.

Hope is much harder to inspire than hate and fear. We've had 8 years of the later, I'm game to try something new.

I'll bow out of this debate because its not a debate, it is simply polarised viewpoints being vented much like religion (or politics)!

In the imortal words of Mr. Springer: Be good to one another.