The Ethics of Updating for VB3 a VB2 Hack That You Didn't Write

[Silverdawn222]

And we aren't telling you as the person who installs hacks to "write it yourself". I think that you are confused, because we are telling this to members who think they can steal others work and use it as their own.

Sorry?

if you want to have a certain hack so badly then just learn some php and create it yourself using your own codes and techniques...

Those are both your quotes. Perhaps the understanding lies in your clarity, not my perception. However, the post is worded well, and I can understand reasoning, but some of the posts in this threads are way overboard when it comes to their attitude to us (PHP-newbies), and it shows because the opinions of non-coders and coders differ greatly on this thread.

By the way, I work ten hours a day programming (just not PHP), and I appreciate your dedication and generosity, but ten hours for a hack is really not that much. I understand the effort and investment it takes, people, but as Miratos said, some stuff being said here is worded pretty badly by hackers trying to make a point.

[Link14716]

And do you get paid for those ten hours of programming?

[g-force2k2]

Originally Posted by Silverdawn222

Those are both your quotes. Perhaps the understanding lies in your clarity, not my perception. However, the post is worded well, and I can understand reasoning, but some of the posts in this threads are way overboard when it comes to their attitude to us (PHP-newbies), and it shows because the opinions of non-coders and coders differ greatly on this thread.

By the way, I work ten hours a day programming (just not PHP), and I appreciate your dedication and generosity, but ten hours for a hack is really not that much. I understand the effort and investment it takes, people, but as Miratos said, some stuff being said here is worded pretty badly by hackers trying to make a point.

Actually I think that people are misundestanding the topic of this thread, the topic is ethics of updating hacks for vb3 not hacking in general, so anything i have been stating is in regards to the topic not to hacking in general.

As for programming what do you make $20 an hour? If so thats $200 that I've sacrificed in order to share my work. Not really that much? How about you donate that to the hackers that sacrifice their time.

Originally Posted by Miratos

g-force2k2 - I never said someone should take code and make it theirs. Please show where I posted that you should take someone elses code and claim it as your own. You didn't say everyone should learn to code? perhaps you should go back and read the excerpt of the quote I pulled from your own post.

support: thank you.
understanding: thank you.
hostility and misunderstanding: ...

Just like I stated above this is aimed at the topic.

Hostility and misunderstanding? You have your mind so locked on your own views that you're disregarded the opinions of those that do hack. So I should thank you on behalf of the hackers for your hospitality in making vb.org a greater place. You think you can understand this community by just walking in and telling those of us that have been here and spent endless hours at vb.org that our opinions and views are wrong?

I think it is you that is mis-understanding, we create hacks for members to use, not tell them to make their own else why would we make any? or why would this community exist? This thread is clearly aimed at people using other hackers code and making it their own, they are the ones that I say write your own work. If you want to start a thread bashing hackers and their work because they don't do enough then you're at the wrong place, because it really seems as though you're trying to be hostile with those of us that do hack. So before you accuse me of telling everyone to write their own hacks, next time read the topic first.

Regards,
g-force2k2

[filburt1]

I'm going to sum up this thread plain and simple: not only is it a rule that has always been enforced at vB.org but just now stated, but IT IS ILLEGAL to do so in the first place.

Please, no more challenging of the rule or our authority to enforce it. I'm not above closing the thread.

[Silverdawn222]

And do you get paid for those ten hours of programming?

Yes, but how do you think I got the job?

The point is though... yes, you're "not telling people to make their own hacks", but you're also "telling people not to modify existing hacks" (without the permission of the author). Look, I'm all for the regs here, it's illegal, and I wouldn't even think about it. But some of the "if you want them so bad, learn PHP" is way out of line, don't you see?

[TWTCommish]

Originally Posted by Silverdawn222

I pay money for Vbulletin not only for their support, but the awesome hack backbone you have here at VBulletin.org.

That's your decision; the hacking community here is not a guranteed part of the package, because the hackers are not paid for their work. You pay for the script; this site is a bonus.

Originally Posted by Silverdawn222

Isn't it shameful that I knock on your door and someone says "write it yourself"? No one should ever demand that, especially not in this discussion. I can understand why people get upset at it: the code is existing in VB2 form already.

How is that a "demand"? Seems to me the only "demand" is coming from the people who are acting as if they are somehow entitled to the code written by others. Telling people they have no such right to it is in no way a demand, nor is it shameful, unless they are unduly harsh about it.

[TWTCommish]

Originally Posted by Miratos

TwtCommmish - I guess we will just have to disagree, but I think this thread very well shows the attitude very well between those who can code and those who can't.

I think it does, indeed. Though I don't think it shows the elitism and snobbery you're implying some coders have, but rather the entitlement and demanding nature of some users who do not know just how much effort can go into some of these modifications.

Originally Posted by Miratos

I would debate most hacks are released out of charity and good will.

Go ahead and debate it; I see few other reasons for such a vast amount of work, given the extreme rarity of instances in which a hacker is actually given a job with Jelsoft.

Originally Posted by Miratos

I never said those who can not code should be entitled to any kind of ownership over the code, I am not sure whree you came up with that. Please show me where I posted that.

It was implicit when you stated that those people "deserve consideration." Fact is, they don't "deserve" any of the code here. It is not part of the script they've bought, and the people who write it owe them nothing. The fact that you did not state in exact terms that they should be given some kind of ownership does not change the point I was making, which is that you're ascribing a level of entitlement that has no reason for existing.

Originally Posted by Miratos

Logician - I reiterate, not everyone can learn to code, despite your insistance that everyone can since all released code is open source. There can be a number of reasons one is unable to learn, they have been stated, even if you wish to ignore them. I am glad you have decided it is your place to decide what sacrifices I should make.

While it's technically true that some people cannot learn how to write PHP code, realistically, it's simply a matter of choice. There's rarely any immobile roadblock between a forum owner and a knowledge of vBulletin's inner-workings. It's not easy, but it's generally just about taking the time to do so.

[0ptima]

I just started to recently visit vb.org on a more frequent basis, and have not taken a close look at the VB2 hacks. What would happen if I write a hack that already exists for VB2 without knowing about a similar VB2 hack?

[Link14716]

There's nothing wrong wirh writing your own hack. The problem is taking someone else's code, porting it and then posting it as your own.

[spence2]

I'm neither a hacker nor a programmer, just an average visitor to vB.org. I remain amazed by both the generosity and knowledge of the authors of the mods presented here and wish in no way for anyone to infringe upon their rights.

However, as an average "joe" visitor when I see a vB2 mod that I hope will be updated to work with vB3 I am left wondering if this will ever occur. Is the author working on it? Gone away, lost interest and could care less about updating their mod? Or are they feverishly working on an update?

Might there be a pragmatic way for vB.org to inquire of the authors their intentions? Might they be asked if they are willing to allow others to carrying on with updating (with credit given) if they have no interest in doing so themselves? Might there be a way for vB.org to help streamline the process for everyone involved?

I dunno...just asking.