vB Designers extincted!

[vbmechanic]

Originally Posted by MindTrix

Heck would i pay in the thousands for a skin, thats just stupid, You could buy a car for that Shesh, when i see them prices you cant help but laugh, most i would pay for a skin would most likely be $50 and then id expect it to be a real nice graphic one. Moan all you want if you think thats cheap but if you think about it, thats not cheap.

It's an hourly business.. you charge what you're worth and you charge for the hours you spend.

$50 for a retail skin is fine, actually high-- but this means 100 other sites could have the same skin. But if you expect to pay $50 for a custom skin that only you will own, that is absolutely ridiculous.

BTW, the site that claims 'custom skins start at $5000' is a joke and even I'll laugh at that until someone shows me a skin that took them more than 50 hours of real work.

[MindTrix]

If i paid $5000 for a custom skin i would expect to be able to walk around in it and everything

[Chris Gwynne]

Originally Posted by MindTrix

most i would pay for a skin would most likely be $50 and then id expect it to be a real nice graphic one. Moan all you want if you think thats cheap but if you think about it, thats not cheap.

Then you're stupid and have no idea what goes into making a skin obviously. The amount of time spent on client negotiations, time working on a skin from original sketches to something coming out of PS and then for it to be coded, and that's only worth $50? Humm ok.

[AshAbed]

Originally Posted by MindTrix

most i would pay for a skin would most likely be $50 and then id expect it to be a real nice graphic one. Moan all you want if you think thats cheap but if you think about it, thats not cheap.

If you think about it? I doubt you've thought it through, You have to talk with the client for at least an hour discussing exactly what he wants - Then Draw something up(Sketch) - Then make it in whatever graphics program you prefer - Then code it up for vBulletin, I've gotten $100 for simply coding a skin someone else made, and your telling me producing a skin from scratch is only worth $50?

[vbmechanic]

Originally Posted by AshAbed

If you think about it? I doubt you've thought it through, You have to talk with the client for at least an hour discussing exactly what he wants - Then Draw something up(Sketch) - Then make it in whatever graphics program you prefer - Then code it up for vBulletin, I've gotten $100 for simply coding a skin someone else made, and your telling me producing a skin from scratch is only worth $50?

I think we need to make the distinction between a "retail skin" that many customers can purchase and a unique skin custom designed and sold only once.

I don't mind posting prices here since I'll freely give them when quoting a new client. I typically charge $450 to $750 for a custom skin, depending on complexity and if there is any PHP involved. My retail skins sell for $30. Big difference..!

[Chris Gwynne]

Originally Posted by vbmechanic

I think we need to make the distinction between a "retail skin" that many customers can purchase and a unique skin custom designed and sold only once.

I don't mind posting prices here since I'll freely give them when quoting a new client. I typically charge $450 to $750 for a custom skin, depending on complexity and if there is any PHP involved. My retail skins sell for $30. Big difference..!

Same what I'll charge, maybe a little higher.

[AlexanderT]

I think the discussion whether or not designers charge too much is complex and to the ordinary user quite fathomless.

Fact is, price depends on demand, and obviously there is a great demand for custom skin designs nowadays. In general, you would not be a capable entrepreneur if you actually charge below what the market dictates (unless you want to kill the market through price dumping ).

That said, I'd like to share my experience with a designer who offered custom designs for only USD 99,00. After I had sent him my inquiry via web (I told him that I needed a new header, new footer, some new graphics, and I named him two forum designs for inspiration), he returned to me on the same day with a skin "preview" (as he called it). It was a screen dump only showing the top part (header and nav bits) of the skin. It didn't resemble any of the designs I mentioned to him. So I gave him a more extensive feedback, hoping, in return, to hear from him back. Instead, he fixed a few colors of his "preview", and changed one or two css tags. The result looked still as unfinished as before. Then we met on AIM to discuss the design (I suggested the meeting). Before it came to any real discussion, however, he disappeared from chat again. And then, only a couple of hours later, I received another email in which he told me to send the money to his paypal address. Slightly more annoyed at this stage (you can imagine), I pointed out my irration about his idiosyncratic customer practices. He apologized explaining to me that he had college work to do and was also very busy with up to 3 other skin requests a day. My response was short: I didn't want to do any more business with him. Well, now he still wants USD 60 for his "sleepless" night he spent on the preview.

As someone else mentioned before: you get what you pay for. This seems to be particularly true for the web design/forum design community. If you want to save yourself some headache, think twice (I didn't) before you go for the cheapest offer.

I created the thread not to discuss price politics. I was very well aware that "lite" skins cost about USD 200-400, whereas "heavy" skins cost about USD 400-800. I created this thread to discuss that we are actually lacking good vB designers! It turns out that there are still some promising talents among us, unfortunately, most of them still lack a more extensive portfolio. I hope this will change with the currently high demand of new skins.

Alexander

[Chris Gwynne]

I think what would be best now if there was a list of people who actually design vB skins, rather than just talking about the lack of them?

http://www.vbdesk.com/
http://www.vbmechanic.com/
http://www.vbstyles.com/
http://www.extremepixel.com/
http://www.insidethepixel.com/

There's a lot more, but I'm in college and don't have my list .

[Regs]

For the love of God, STOP promoting/insinuating Insidethepixel as a good designer

~Regs.

[AlexanderT]

I agree with Regs. Chris did you actually read this thread? DameonW disappeared, left his clients in the cold - just as Ravio did!, with the following message:

The skins section, if you haven't noticed, has been shut down for quite some time. Before our messageboard was erased, we announced that we would no longer be creating any more skins for vBulletin. If you've purchased a skin recently, you need to contact Matt Sardynski at paypal@insidethepixel.com if you have not received your skin, as he still SOLELY owns the account and has told me that all payments were cancelled. If you are either waiting for a skin or refund for a purchased skin that was never received, contact him at the email account that I provided.

So I don't care if he is actually still working in the shadow, perhaps under a different name or with a different company.

For the other names you mentioned: you fail to see the point I was trying to raise.
- http://www.extremepixel.com/ - who is that? no portfolio of custom designs
- http://www.vbulletinstyles.com/ - no portfolio of custom designs
- http://www.vbdesk.com/ - only a single forum style (http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/) available for review.

[charmedimsure]

Hi all. Just wanted to state my opinion on pricing etc from a software developers point of view.

I agree with the overall pricing of VB Mechanics post. Custom work regardless if your a developer / designer is generally paid by the hour.

I actually think custom work for VB should be higher then the norm of a regular web site designer (depending on compexity of course), since its a niche area. Costs more to to fix your Ferrari then your Ford doesnt it? Not comparing product quality, but the fact is there's less Farrari mechanics/garage's in the world then Ford mechanics.

And as far as the amount of people customizing, the fact is you need to have a creative background and/or talent, but you also need software development background for the more custom development. Its extremely rare for a software developer to have any creative talent and vs versa, thats why you will see so many teams (not an individual). If you have min of two people customizing at approx $35/hr, it adds up.

$5000 for a website is peanuts. Most large enterprise web sites cost over $100,000. Ive seen posts of people requesting a site that "is just like lavalife", and expect to pay $2000.

$5000 for a customization of the look and feel of vbulletin is crazy, building a whole website around it is not.

Initial investments in the software, servers is very minimal. The high costs are because of the customization, and development.

VBmechanic, if you are starting to turn down requests, i suggest upping your price - supply and demand my friend /wink, and get someone to help you

I find it funny as a developer that people think we get paid to much (im at about $40 - $50 an hour Canadian), yet dont blink an eye when the pay their plumber $70 an hour.

[AlexanderT]

Originally Posted by charmedimsure

I find it funny as a developer that people think we get paid to much (im at about $40 - $50 an hour Canadian), yet dont blink an eye when the pay their plumber $70 an hour.

Well the difference is that if you fail to pay your web designer, only your web page 'stinks', whereas if you fail to pay the plumber, you entire house will 'stink' :nervous:

[pie]

All I can say is i still sell styles from ArtOrg.co.uk (am ex-admin of vBPanel)

www.RealityArtStudios.net

[AlexanderT]

Another unsatisfied person looking for a custom vB design.

[Chris Gwynne]

Originally Posted by AlexanderT

Another unsatisfied person looking for a custom vB design.

unsatisfied yes. Anybody's fault but his own? No. He was expecting more than he paid for.