The Ethics of Updating for VB3 a VB2 Hack That You Didn't Write

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by g-force2k2

...SNIP...if you want to have a certain hack so badly then just learn some php and create it yourself using your own codes and techniques...SNIP...g-force2k2

Not everyone is capable of being a coder. Some people do not have the time, some people do not have the talent. Further, some people are capable of teaching themselves, others require classrooms to actually learn anything.

That is, theoretically, why this place exists. Its ashame the elitist attitudes make it such a hostile place though.

[ULTIMATESSJ]

Originally Posted by Miratos

Not everyone is capable of being a coder. Some people do not have the time, some people do not have the talent. Further, some people are capable of teaching themselves, others require classrooms to actually learn anything.

That is, theoretically, why this place exists. Its ashame the elitist attitudes make it such a hostile place though.

One of the best comments i've seen in this thread.

I don't think theres much argument to the law. We all have to abide by it, and it's something we are incapiable of debating against, but perhaps instead of rethinking the law, perhaps people should rethink their stance on the other hackers here who are trying their best to learn PHP.

[MindTrix]

I agree. I know little PHP but i am learning more everday, however sometimes the attitude of more advanced coders is disgusting, and im not on about this thread, i mean some posts i have seen in general. Some people might seem like they are beeing complete idiots too you when they say things like "What is a php file" and things, but sometimes they honestly do not know, and then if you laugh at them for it, it makes them feel worse.

Then again, some advanced hackers on here are amazing in their support and general attitude and it is a god send.


Bottom line is not everyone understands PHP just like that, im reading the same book over and over again and i still only know enough to get by.

As for this posts topic. I agree no one should convert a hack without permission its simple as that.As said it is Law so i do not see why people are still debating on it! Just give in lol

[Nikidala]

This community is here for hacking vBulletin, and I would probably agree that the vast majority of the users of the forum probably do not know how to program. Nothing wrong with that... That is why it is such a blessing for the people that do know how to share their hard work, efforts, and ideas with everyone here...

And, I am also pretty sure that a fair amount of the users here, being in a "hacking" forum would like to learn a bit more about programming so that they can modify their own board to suit their needs and give back to the community that has given to them. Again nothing wrong with that...

You are also correct that a lot of people learn how to hack their boards and / or program from taking examples (in this case, hacks) and trying to modify them to suit their needs and / or add a bit more functionality that the person that was lacking. I cannot speak for all hackers here, but I can imagine that a fair amount of them would have no problems with you doing this for your OWN forum. I think that the major concern / problem is when the person makes modifications to the hack, then wants to "publish" the modified hack... One of the problems there being (besides obvious copyright issues) that the "new" hacker would be getting recognition from the WHOLE hack when the "new" hacker had only modified someone elses work.

Without the "original" hacker, the "new" hacker would not have had a hack to modify and get recognition off of in the first place. Without the "original" hacker, the "new" hacker would not have had an "example" to use to help him better his hacking skills. And on, and on... Pretty much it boils down to:

Without the "original" hacker, the "new" hacker would have nothing (so to speak)...

New people on the forum would not know that the "original" hacker spent 6 months writing the original hack (even with the "thanks" in the "new" hacker's release) and the "new" hacker only spent say 2 weeks and added 6 lines of code. Instead, new members that have not been around for a while, may just see the popularity of the "new" hackers hack and assume that the "new" hack did most of the work on the hack... Would that be fair to the "original" hack, who not only came up with the idea, researched how to best implement it, and spent the time coding the majority of the "new" hackers hack?

Now, some people can say that another hacker could come in and add even more work than the "original" hacker did to the hack AND added much needed functionality to said "original" hack... If this is the case, I could see how said "new" hacker would get upset that not only their time and efforts would go unnoticed, but the rest of the community would be "stuck" with a "lesser" hack (in their minds)... But, what if the "original" hacker had also been spending the past few months "upgrading" his hack (keeping it under raps in hopes of a big surprise for the community), and all of the "original" hackers work would go to waste since the "new" hacker released his prior to the "original" hacker finishing?

And there is the major dilema...


I don't know how this idea would fly, but maybe their could be a separate sub-forum for hacks of hacks? It would follow how the hacks of vb work, no original code released, just the new modifications to the scripts, what to look for, where to insert, etc... When a hacker releases a vb hack, they could have a choice (like the support choice) to allow other hackers to release hacks FOR the original hack. This way possibly both parties win... The new users would still have to install the original hack to install the new hack. The original hack still gets credit for each and every line of code they wrote, and the new hacker would get credit for each and every line of code they wrote... And it seems like this option would be as legal as the current method of hacking vBulletin, as none of the original code is republished, only new code...

Like I said, I don't know how that would fly with you guys, but can't say I didn't atleast suggest it... Seeing as I don't have any hacks, my two cents really aren't worth two cents, so...

[MindTrix]

Every comment is worth something mate
But as stated here this aparantly is not up for discussion which we have to agree with and abide by. Hacks MUST NOT be converted without permission from the original author.

[Dark_Wizard]

I agree...great thread and thx Amykhar for bringing this up.

[TWTCommish]

Originally Posted by Miratos

And saying, write your own code from scratch is not an acceptable answer. Not everyone is capable of coding. In my opinion, that is a very narrow minded and elitest attitude.

It's no more elitist than saying that those who cannot drive properly should not be given licenses.

Originally Posted by Miratos

I'm not trying to be a troll...but undestand there are features out there that people need and not everyone is blessed with the ability to program and so are at the mercy of those who can. These people deserve consideration as much as the ones who can take that old program and update it for their boards.

They're being given a great deal of consideration, as is exemplified in the legions of hacks available here, most of which are done out of charity and good will. To say that those who cannot be bothered to learn these skills are somehow entitled to some sort of ownership over the code of those who can is unfathomable to me.

[g-force2k2]

Originally Posted by Miratos

Not everyone is capable of being a coder. Some people do not have the time, some people do not have the talent. Further, some people are capable of teaching themselves, others require classrooms to actually learn anything.

That is, theoretically, why this place exists. Its ashame the elitist attitudes make it such a hostile place though.

Elitist? Would you rather I not share my work with vb.org? I make work for others to use, I currently have no forum of residence so I don't make these modifications for myself. And to your comment I'm referring to the ethnics of taking code thats not yours and making it yours. I didn't say everyone should learn, but just that those that think they can just take others work and make it there own, they are in the wrong, and they should learn instead of steal.

Miratos if someone took your work OR claimed something of yours as their own you would not be the least upset? I think you should re-evaluation the circumstances before thinking that I am such an elitist.

I would sincerely have to agree with TWTCommish's comments.

Regards,
g-force2k2

[Link14716]

Originally Posted by TWTCommish

It's no more elitist than saying that those who cannot drive properly should not be given licenses.

They're being given a great deal of consideration, as is exemplified in the legions of hacks available here, most of which are done out of charity and good will. To say that those who cannot be bothered to learn these skills are somehow entitled to some sort of ownership over the code of those who can is unfathomable to me.

*Agreed*

[Logician]

Originally Posted by Miratos

Not everyone is capable of being a coder. Some people do not have the time, some people do not have the talent. Further, some people are capable of teaching themselves, others require classrooms to actually learn anything.

That is, theoretically, why this place exists. Its ashame the elitist attitudes make it such a hostile place though.

All hacks released here is open source which means you can check the source code, play with it and make many experiments which will help you learn PHP. You can do all these in your test board or real board and I agree that this will help you learn PHP or VB structure a lot. This is for sure allowed 100%.

But taking someoneelse work, modifying a few variable names, then releasing it with your name is something different and has nothing to do with learning PHP and can not be excused with being a newbie. This is against law and even if it was complying with law, I'd say it is very disrespectful. I believe it is so, even if you spend hours, make enhancements in the code and produce a better hack at the end. Some of the expert hackers here might think, they can make some enhancements in the vbulletin source code, but should we first make them, then release the "vbulletin" as "vbulletin+" with our names on it EVEN IF the outcome is really better? IMO this is stealing. If you think you can produce a better bb software, you can sit down on your computer and start coding it from the ground with your algorithms and functions.

When we say that we won't allow this in vb.org, you might be disappointed as some of the VB2 hacks will never be imported to VB3. This is true. But you are missing the point that if we start allowing such a practise in the long run we'll lose all expert and competent hackers that are very valuable to this community as they are producing the "real" works. And if we didnt have them here in the first place, we wouldnt have this discussion as well because there would be no large hacks that anybody would import anyway. So for the sake of having these large hacks here in vb.org in the future too, you can gladly sacrifice a few VB2 hacks that will never get imported. Besides I believe that you wouldnt need to worry even for this because I'm sure if that hack is popular someone else will take time to code it from the ground anyway so you'll get your hack at the end.