Angry .Orgers

[Hossack]

I'm a newbie to vBulletin and to this forum, so I hope this post isn't speaking out of turn. I've read it from the beginning and apart from the odd bit of posturing, it has been very interesting to see how people view this site, from both the user ,the coders and the moderators point of view.

Humble opinion, but it does seem to be a strange arguement to be having. One side to the arguement is that vBulletin.org has and should remain free, excluding commercial interests from the site in favour of free help being offered to new and existing members. The other side, the freedom to code, or recieve code for either free or with payment if the code warrants it for the amount of time and effort in its development. The arguement seems valid enough to everyone, so much so that it is worth trading insults over, yet it seems very unlikely it will ever be resolved, as its seems to me it is more an issue of trust than anything else.

If you allow someone to charge for their services, the consensus is that everyone will start charging and this will no longer be a .org, more of a .com and the community that exists here would struggle in some way. This seems a little bizarre as you already have a Service Request area, and unless I'm missing something, there are people there offering money for modifications to their vBulletins, yet no-one seems to respond to these requests. In other areas, where people are asking for help and advice for free, there are responses.

I'm trying to learn how to work vBulletin, but at the same time would gladly pay people to help me, I don't see that it conflicts with the nature of this site, more that it enhances its usefulness to the community. If you have the time and inclination to learn, there are more than a few who will encourage and help, if you don't have the time, but have the money, equally someone would be able to help. The majority in this community seem to be fair and reasonable people who will help whether payment is involved or not, and the introduction of any services that are based on pounds and pence rather than out of the goodness of someones heart would not be abused by the majority by no longer supporting the free elements of the community.

As I say, I don't mean to speak out of turn and as a new member here I maybe don't understand the arguement or the history of vBulletin.org, but if I'm reading into this correctly it would seem to me that anything that benefits the majority is at least worth thinking about and for the people who want to be paid for their efforts could show how useful the paid elements of the site could be by using the facilities that already exist until it is decided one way or the other.

Hossack

[Lea Verou]

People don't respond to paid requests cause they don't have permission to do so.
They have to respond via pm.

[Hossack]

Originally Posted by Michelle

People don't respond to paid requests cause they don't have permission to do so.
They have to respond via pm.

That would explain it :surprised: Had I read the sticky thread there, that would have answered me straight away :ermm:

Hossack

[Brad]

Thank you for your post Hossack, don't worry about speaking out of turn just because you're new to the community.

Michelle is right, we do not allow people to post replies in the service requests forum (save the author of the thread).

[Talisman]

Originally Posted by MPDev

Based on the poll, it would seem that a majority of people would like the resource. So, at least we can dispense with the arguement that the majority do not want it.

Oh please... you need to go back and read the points raised if you think such a slight lead justifies a change like this. This is exactly what I said on the first page about overlooking the concern members have about this and reading too much into straight-number polling. Our commercial hackers are this quick to declare victory? Give me a break.

Regardless of how an apparent "majority" might vote, it's plain to see this is an extremely contentious issue... with very strong feelings on both sides and significant opposition to this suggestion that shouldn't be drowned out. There's no overwhelming majority that we mostly agree to allow commercial advertising at the vb.org site. If you listen to what members have been saying, you find the opposite is true. There's alot at risk here and alot of concern.

Most people do support commercial hacks and most of us are going to pay for them. But if .org starts letting everyone start advertising and promoting their own self-interests here -- and I do mean EVERYONE (not only reputable and competent hackers) -- then that will interfere with the open exchange of free support among ourselves that the rest of us want to have.

Why can't people who want to turn this into a business on the side for themselves do that on their own.. or go in together and attract their own customers without inserting that commercial element here? In addition to all those commercial hacks we might wish to purchase, we also need and we *should have* one single centralized community as a free resource, too, that doesn't get caught up in all the hype, all the personal agendas, all the problems resulting from shoddy work/disreputable people, and the conflict of interest this raises for THIS community.

[MPDev]

And, apparently, those who oppose the inclusive display of paid mods are equally quick to disregard the poll entirely.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Talisman

Why can't people who want to turn this into a business on the side for themselves do that on their own.. or go in together and attract their own customers without inserting that commercial element here?

I think the general feeling here is setting up their own site for this is still not going to solve the issue of having their products in a place most of the vBulletin users will see. They gear their products toward vBulletin users so it's only natural that they would want to be able to run ads for them here.

I do agree that the poll is not a good way to look at how the overall community feels about this, although it's showing a mainly 50/50 split at this time only a handful of the users have even voted in the thread.

Personally I don't think free support would dry up here if we went ahead and supported commercial hacks in some form. It takes a lot more then coding a few php scripts to sell your work.

You have to set-up your own website (hosting, vBulletin, domain name, the works), you have to provide your clients with support, you have to fix bugs within your scripts, you have to get the word out about your 'business'. All of this costs money and time, and if you happen to take off soon you'll be paying people to help with support/code.

Now out of the people posting hacks and giving support here, I'd be willing to bet less then 10% of them would have the time or desire to do all of this. Most of these guys and girls work a regular job, or go to school (or both) and do this has a hobby in their free time.

If any of you have been around for sometime at sitepoint you'll know their history with this very same issue. At one point the site was basically 'ad-free' but now it is not. Has the free support there dried up yet? No, in fact it has grown and is still doing so.

[The Geek]

First off Hossak, great post and I yes - everyone here has a voice.

Talisman, don't get so angry. .Org isn't just for you and your beliefs toward scripts, its about everyones beliefs here. We have been told only a minority want information on commercial scripts in this thread by staff. The poll (so far anyway!) has proven that is not the case.

In no way does that warrant a change on its own, however it does suggest that many users would feel they would benefit from it. At that stage, it only seems logical to start discussion on the best way to do this while still maintaining the 'harmony' of .org.

The poll is still new, its not a specific poll, its an informal poll, sure there are a lot of things not perfect about the poll - however at least it does put an end to the 'only commercial script authors want .org to have them here' play.

[Lizard King]

Any user that has money right now can buy a paid script right now. So license is not needed for paid vBulletin modifications. Thats another reason why Jellsoft must find a solution for paid modifications. I dont want to see a paid modification in a unlicensed site and please dont come to me an arguement with why someone will pay for a modification if they dont pay for vb. One is 160$ not everyone can support and the other one is 20-30 $ .

[Brad]

Lets lay off the personal insults please. I'm not naming any names here but they are starting to become all to common in this thread.