vBulletin Suite vs. vBulletin

[Tim Skellett]

Originally Posted by wolfstream

If you buy something , the seller is legally bound to stand by the sales description, or contract, no? Of course they are.
All you have to do is upgrade (or extend) your license to see the description which states that you will continue to have access to the members area where you can download future versions of vBulletin, while this is current.

And once again you are exaggerating. Again, this is simply not the same as your first implied claim and example that they gave such access for "10 years". Conditions can change, get over it. What you have not shown at all is actual evidence of vB screwing its customers.

So, somewhere, IB is planning on royally screwing their customers.

Meh, pure speculation on your part. When you have some real evidence, present it. Otherwise, you're simply demanding I should be dissatisfied just because you are, and my heart bleeds for that.

For $200, I can get software to run my entire computer, two of them even. Low price?? That's hardly the case

Wow, you can get a PC OS. Hey, you can get Linux for free. Whoopidoo. We're talking commercial board-forum software; you're trying to compare apples with oranges.

Not speculation at all. If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, that's ok,

Quite frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. Get over it. I'm a satisfied customer of vB, and I do tend to regard all commerce with skepticism, so I also judge vB with skepticism. But not with meaningless dramatics. You're simply trying to demand others be dissatisfied as well, without giving any good reasons as to why we should be dissatisfied, just a lot of emo and speculation.

[R1lover]

I think you must have missed the information that was posted from vb, it keeps getting pulled, but you can find it if you look around.

There were a few things that have made some people very upset. Read it and then make an informed decision.

[wolfstream]

Originally Posted by Tim Skellett

Conditions can change, get over it. What you have not shown at all is actual evidence of vB screwing its customers.

Firstly, once the sale is already made, terms can not change. BOTH the seller and the buyer are bound by those terms. The problem is that sellers try to weasel their way out of this any way possible, and many succeed because of ridiculous lawyer types that basically point out loopholes.

Secondly, you need to be more informed before you jump on the "vBulletin isn't screwing it's customers" bandwagon. It has been made very public that there will be an upgrade fee, we're just waiting on the 'how much'. That would be fine, if the renewals didn't currently (and previously) state that you'd have access to members area for downloading of future versions of vBulletin for x amount of time.

Originally Posted by Tim Skellett

You're simply trying to demand others be dissatisfied as well, without giving any good reasons as to why we should be dissatisfied, just a lot of emo and speculation.

I don't really care if you're dissatisfied or not. In fact, if you get ripped off, hey, so much the better as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes that's what it takes to get people to wake up, see what's really going on and take action.

The reason is given, you just have to actually do your own research and be informed, not bury your head in the sand and pretend it aint coming.

we can judge about that after a while of experience with the new owner

You are aware that IB isn't exactly a "new owner", right? It's been over two years, or probably just around 1/5th of vB's lifetime (not sure the exact date vB started), so not so much a new owner.

Since IB took over:
First price hike in years (last year). Not by much, so it was ok. They didn't break contracts, so, again, it was ok

Leaked information (good or bad, we don't know, it could all be a publicity stunt)

Failure to address said leaked info.

Closure of beta testing (good or bad, again, we don't know, and won't know until 4.x comes out)

2nd price hike . As proposed, it's a $15 hike for purchased forums (no leased forums available, as rumored)

Complete abandonment of contracts re: previously sold applications (ie: blog, PT, vB, etc)

I'm not sure how much more it would take for IB to turn vB into "garbage", but they're pretty much well on their way to it.

[Morsolo]

Originally Posted by Black Tiger

As long as there is also a vb4 forum only option, there is no problem at all.

I doubt that will be an option. I would love this option; as I have ZERO interest in any of the addons Jelsoft supply for vBulletin, I just want my FORUM SOFTWARE.

What my reasoning is, is that because the addons are no longer purchasable separately, then there can't be a "forum only" version. Otherwise, what if you wanted to upgrade? Would you have to pay an ENTIRE new fee for for "full version", or is there an "upgrade to full version" option. If the latter is the case, then, technically we can still buy the addons separately.

That is, in addition to the fact Jelsoft has always ever only had 1 license, not multiple versions. You pay for one license and get one version of vBulletin.

...All I can say is, vB4 better be DAMN good, or I'm going to IB.

[Trip]

From what I gather there will be a forum only option. From what I've read, there will be two options. One will be only the forum software, the other will be what they are calling the "suite" which included the forum, blog, project tools, and the new CMS.

[Black Tiger]

because the addons are no longer purchasable separately, then there can't be a "forum only" version.

Why not? They could make a vBulletin and a vBulletion Suite option. With vBulletin als the forum only option. They don't need to sell the addons seperately this way.
But it would make things a bit more difficult for them. But I also got the same impression that Trip got, that there would be 2 versions. Lack of communication about that is the problem again here.

You pay for one license and get one version of vBulletin.

Nope. You pay for one license and you get vBulletin forum software, end of story.
As long as you pay for renewing your license (which was "renewing support" in the old days) you are entitled to every future version. So not "one" version of vBulletin.

I've always been a satisfied customer of vBulletin, but we have an agreement, and they can't force agreements around so people have to take things they don't want.
VB was always forum software. Blogs, Projects and CMS has nothing to do with a forum.

I'm not sure how much more it would take for IB to turn vB into "garbage", but they're pretty much well on their way to it.

Is it already 2 years again? Phew, time is flying. Anyway, some of your arguments are not facts yet. There is beta testing? I've read somewhere people had the possibility to give them selfs up as betatesters of v4.
The 2nd price hike is not a fact yet. I've only seen one as a fact and that is the price hike from last year, in which all prices went up.

Still... the rest is true. But we can stay guessing as long as Jelsoft does not take the time, show some client friendlyness and stop some of the worry's of their clients by COMMUNICATING! As was done before.
Now there is the big silence. Maybe they use the thread to see how many law suites or leaving customers they can expect, i don't know and i don't care.
This is no way treating your customers.

There is no need to say everything, but they can give some reassurance or answers about a few things. Don't wait with the new pricing stuff until v4 is available, because then you are too late as a company.

[Morsolo]

Originally Posted by Black Tiger

Why not? They could make a vBulletin and a vBulletion Suite option. With vBulletin als the forum only option. They don't need to sell the addons seperately this way.
But it would make things a bit more difficult for them. But I also got the same impression that Trip got, that there would be 2 versions. Lack of communication about that is the problem again here.

I go on to say that if they have this "forum only" version, that then there must be an option to somehow "upgrade" to the full suite, in which case you're only paying for the addons, which, in turns is pretty much purchasing the addons separately.

Originally Posted by Black Tiger

Nope. You pay for one license and you get vBulletin forum software, end of story.
As long as you pay for renewing your license (which was "renewing support" in the old days) you are entitled to every future version. So not "one" version of vBulletin.

I've always been a satisfied customer of vBulletin, but we have an agreement, and they can't force agreements around so people have to take things they don't want.
VB was always forum software. Blogs, Projects and CMS has nothing to do with a forum.

When I said "get one version of vBulletin", I didn't mean the physical build number. I meant one TYPE of vBulletin. As in you paid for the license and got VBULLETIN. I don't want to pay for the license and have to choose between EITHER vBulletin or the vBulletin Suite; it was never how Jelsoft operated.

As for the rest, as I just demonstrated (haha) - lack of communication is a problem, and it especially sucks on the internet.

However, I don't want to say it; but I'm sure many agree... This is just some cheap tactic for Jelsoft to throw the prices up and say "but you're getting more" as a morale compensation for themselves that they've effectively ripped a majority of their customers (who don't use Blogs/Project or whatever) off.

[cheat-master30]

Originally Posted by wolfstream

If you buy something , the seller is legally bound to stand by the sales description, or contract, no? Of course they are.
All you have to do is upgrade (or extend) your license to see the description which states that you will continue to have access to the members area where you can download future versions of vBulletin, while this is current.

I don't know the exact wording, they will no longer (obviously) allow people to renew over a certain period of time (ie: if you have more than a year on the license left, you have to wit till just under a year) to do it, but as of a few days ago, that's EXACTLy what it said. The same goes for the blog:


So, somewhere, IB is planning on royally screwing their customers.




LOW price? Are you kidding me? $200 is a "low price"? For $200, I can get software to run my entire computer, two of them even. Low price?? That's hardly the case

vBulletin is not expensive. If you honestly think it's expensive, you have no idea what expense can actually be. I wrote about that here:

http://dsultimate.net/Board/upload/blog.php?b=332

• vBulletin- $430 plus server costs
• UBB Threads- $694, $598 or $725 depending on package
• Mes Discussions- $3450 (plus server costs?)
• Community Server Enterprise- $120 000
• FuseTalk.NET- $4998 possibly plus
• FuseTalk- $4998 (wow, same!)
• Groupee- $1800 shared server, $35928
• Jive- $299700 minimum, and for 4 CPUs, $778500 dedicated server
• Lithium- I really don't want to know, way too high

That's not the vBulletin 4 pricing for vBulletin, but still. There are many types of forum software that cost nigh on 500-1000 dollars EACH, and yet people claim vBulletin is expensive. Invision is the same general price as vBulletin. Etc. Sure, many people online apparently have this 'expect everything for free' mentality, but vBulletin is no way an expensive piece of software.


Secondly, I think way too many people are panicking about this. They've not figured out their upgrade path yet, but I'd be very surprised if people were going to have their license someone destroyed without any real reasoning or major change or whatever. Even worse is the amount of people who assume Internet Brands will charge full price of the software for the vBulletin 4 upgrade, even though that's nowhere stated to be the case.

Not speculation at all. If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, that's ok, but it's certainly not speculation. Since IB has taken the product over, they've done nothing but raise prices, fire staff (or cause them to leave) and act unprofessional, tearing the vBulletin name apart. At one time, it was a great name, now it's just garbage, because of IB.

It's not garbage. It's currently better than practically any other forum software out there. I don't personally agree with most of Internet Brands and their decisions personally, I have no affiliation with them, and I certainly don't think they generally run their forums that well (based on a study of many of them and their declining activity levels I did a few weeks back), but vBulletin to be fair is probably their BEST managed property of all those they've listed on their website. vBulletin does seem to be getting new features and value brought to it. The software's certainly not dying or been torn about like some of their other properties.

We don't know that exactly, but the likelyhood is pretty high that, yes, that is the case. We do know that work on external stuff (blog, PT) has ceased, we do NOT know what they plan on doing with those of us dumb enough to believe IB's lies (and yeah I said US, I'm in that group as well).

I don't think work on those has stopped entirely, it's just being somewhat postponed to work on things people actually care about, like vBulletin 4 and the CMS. Most customers certainly don't care too much about the Project Tools.

[Black Tiger]

@Cheat-Master30: I think you have to go and have a look again.
UBB threads has a bit different pricing.
Standard license 199 dollar
Silver (5 year updates) 499
Lifetime 725 lifetime updates for free!

But this does only proves that UBB is expensive, as it always has been.

Mybb - Free
Phpfusion - Free
PhpBB (with good support) - Free
And if we go and have a look at commercial forums you smartly let out the new owners of Jelsoft, being IB.
And an IB forum license costs..... correct... 149 dollar!

So vBulletin is not the most expensive, but it certainly is also not cheap software.
And Wolfstream never said vBulletin was expensive, he said it was not cheap and he is correct.
IB is cheaper, windows XP and Vista are cheaper (yes you got a complete OS for that price), WHMCS is cheaper. That does not mean vBulletin is expensive, but it isn't cheap either. I see it as "middle of the road" priced, almost against the border of "a little bit expensive".

I agree with you that it is not garbage either. It's progressive and support is great, no problem there.
But you must agree that they should know better then do a major change (building a suite now) without proper communication way in advance, about what it's going to be and how people who bought the addons already, get compensated. That's a lack of communications which is now (together with the sudden price rais last year without proper communication in advance) damaging their name at this point.
Count that to the fact that people get fired or major contributors like Mike and Kier leaving, you will have users that get afraid that Jelsoft is sliding down hill.

And that's the problem, and the bigger problem is dat Jelsoft does not give any reaction, making people think their thoughts and maybe rumours are true. People get worried.

[TWood]

* vBulletin- $430 plus server costs
* UBB Threads- $694, $598 or $725 depending on package
* Mes Discussions- $3450 (plus server costs?)
* Community Server Enterprise- $120 000
* FuseTalk.NET- $4998 possibly plus
* FuseTalk- $4998 (wow, same!)
* Groupee- $1800 shared server, $35928
* Jive- $299700 minimum, and for 4 CPUs, $778500 dedicated server
* Lithium- I really don't want to know, way too high

Thanks for that, and the article in your link. I've been wondering about those so-called 'enterprise' level products and whether I should be considering them for an upcoming project. You actually got a price for Jive, which is a feat since their site is mostly an endless loop of marketing superlatives. Now I see why.

I bought licenses for both vBulletin and IPB so I could test them out. It turns out that vBulletin has a critical feature that I need, so that's the route we'll take. Happy it can take on the task.

In my license agreement there's a line that says:

Jelsoft reserves the right to modify these terms at any time.

That really should end all this sturm und drang.