Can we talk politics?

[smacklan]

I predict this thread will be closed soon

[Ncturnal]

Originally Posted by kiFF

Ncturnal, maybe you should take your ad hominem somewhere else, and spare us the bumper-sticker-arguments.

It looks like you need to brush up on your foreign policy just like Mr 911 does.

David Cross pretty much sums it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7aFXRAW7mg

Educating Rudy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcQQ05XtAQ4

Originally Posted by kiFF

We went in to remove a dictator and set up a more stable country. I'll write more later, I have guitar lessons.

There is no shortage of countries that have unstable governments but you don't see us meddling with those. The Iraq war was about OIL and OIL alone. It has nothing to do with anything else and if you can't see that for what it is you're living in a dream world. Spare me the propaganda. We've been hearing that crap for years now. SCARRORISM at it's finest! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMqN0g-cAOU

[kiFF]

Yes, let's all listen to the guy who get's all of his information from YouTube.

And even if it was just for oil, I don't want to hear you complaining when oil prices skyrocket if we leave.

[Weapon-x]

Ncturnal I have been over to Iraq many many times. And the media controls this country. They don't show you exactly how good we are doing over there. The media only shows us deaths, and stuff. They never report on what achievements we have made for the Iraq people. Keep in mind you can't go to war without people dieing. Plus most of the media is democratic stuff. They are going to bash bush and the war and everything else. But if you haven't gone to Iraq your self then you really do not know how good we are doing over there. Ask some of the soldiers. Plus I will say a lot of soldiers knew what could happen when they signed up for the job. They want to protect our country and that is there job. Now some soldiers just signed up for the money and think that we would never go into war but they are wrong.

Plus you have to look at the picture from both angels not just one. Not just the one that you have always looked at. Sit back and really think before you say something think of all area's of this.

I will agree that yes Iraq did not crash planes into the world trade center. It was the terrorist group. And yes we should be focusing out troops more on Bin Laden then anyone else.

Now taking down the power in Iraq was a good idea because those people were in a bad country. Did we find Weapons of Mass Destruction No but he DID have the ability to produce them. That was the major threat.

Are troops dieing? Yes, It's a war.

Should we pull some troops out? Keep word some yes.

Do we exactly know why we got bombed on 9/11? No the only person who knows that is Bin Laden.

[Ncturnal]

And even if it was just for oil, I don't want to hear you complaining when oil prices skyrocket if we leave.

The fiscal irresponsibility of the war is driving our currency in the ground and you want to talk about oil prices? Even if oil prices remained the same, the net effect will be a price increase due to the devaluing of the dollar, but if you haven't noticed, oil prices have already gone up, but I'm sure the war has nothing to do with that. At least the oil companies are showing record profits since the start of the war, otherwise it would be a total loss. :up: I'm more concerned with our reckless spending on this war and the needless death of 1.2 million people than I am oil prices. We've spent $1.2 TRILLION (and climbing) so far on this war and your best argument is gas prices? Where do you think this money for the war comes from? If you think this qualifies cheap oil, all I can ask is are you that bad at math? For example, we use over 20 million barrels of oil a day. The AP said today that oil will average $85 a barrel in 2008, which is $1.7 billion a day or $620.5 billion a year. So if we would have just bought the oil instead of spending it on the war, we'd have almost 2 full years at our current elevated prices or 6 years at pre-war oil prices. Justifying the death of 1.2 million people for cheap oil is repugnant but it doesn't surprise me coming from the Rudy camp.

[smacklan]

Where do you get 1.2 million dead? What we have done, is free the Iraqi's from Saddam so they can exterminate each other...lotta love between those muslim brothers over there.

[Ncturnal]

Originally Posted by Weapon-x

Ncturnal I have been over to Iraq many many times. And the media controls this country. They don't show you exactly how good we are doing over there. The media only shows us deaths, and stuff. They never report on what achievements we have made for the Iraq people.

I think the media in general favors the war. They were key in pushing the WMD propaganda that was used to justify the war in the first place.

Keep in mind you can't go to war without people dieing.

No doubt, but this war could have been prevented. WMDs was cover for other ulterior motives prompting this war. Oil interests are the sole reason for us being there.

They are going to bash bush and the war and everything else. But if you haven't gone to Iraq your self then you really do not know how good we are doing over there. Ask some of the soldiers. Plus I will say a lot of soldiers knew what could happen when they signed up for the job. They want to protect our country and that is there job. Now some soldiers just signed up for the money and think that we would never go into war but they are wrong.

I'm prior military and a Gulf war vet. I still have plenty of friends in the armed services. None of them I know want to be there and they don't want to play policeman for Iraq. The suicide rate for veterans is around 18%. Ron Paul has received more in donations from military personnel than any other candidate and that has to be because he's the only one promising to bring them home.

I will agree that yes Iraq did not crash planes into the world trade center. It was the terrorist group. And yes we should be focusing out troops more on Bin Laden then anyone else.

Agreed

Now taking down the power in Iraq was a good idea because those people were in a bad country. Did we find Weapons of Mass Destruction No but he DID have the ability to produce them. That was the major threat.

I completely disagree with this point. The WMD scare was just hype. Iraq never posed a threat to us. They didn't shoot down a single plane in 10 years prior to this war. Their Army is a fraction of what it was during the Gulf war. They have no Air Force or Navy and no way to launch an attack against us. There are countless other "bad countries" that we completely ignore no matter how many of their own people they kill. The ONLY reason we took an interest in this one is because of OIL. There is no debating this and that nullifies every contrived justification for killing 1.2 million of their people.

Are troops dieing? Yes, It's a war.

An unnecessary one.

Do we exactly know why we got bombed on 9/11? No the only person who knows that is Bin Laden.

We know exactly why he did it. He told us specifically why he attacked us: Our ties to the Saudi family, our occupation of their holy land, and our support of Isreal. The 911 attacks were blow-back as a direct result of our foreign policy in the Middle East. The 911 Commission report confirms this. Paul Wolfowitz confirms this. Michael Scheuer, the head of the CIA's Bin Laden group confirms this. I really don't get why this fact alludes some people. You can't do whatever you want to other countries and not expect some sort of retaliation. You can bet if someone did the same things to us, we'd retaliate.

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Originally Posted by smacklan

Where do you get 1.2 million dead? What we have done, is free the Iraqi's from Saddam so they can exterminate each other...lotta love between those muslim brothers over there.

655000 since we invaded in 2003. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101001442.html The rest were during the sanctions we imposed. Yes, a lot of them are killing each other, but we are directly responsible for a majority of the 655000 deaths otherwise. We are also responsible for the civil war that has ensued. Even Cheney admitted in 94 that overthrowing Saddam was a bad idea. (posted earlier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY) It doesn't take much to understand that we created the mess.

[smacklan]

Well, I would argue with your assessment we are responsible for their hatred for one another. What I will ask, is those who are fervently opposed to the war such as yourself never seem to offer any suggestions on how to make it right (pulling out is a stupid answer, so please don't go there). Also, Ron Paul for Pres...thanks for the chuckle...I needed the laugh this afternoon

[Brad]

Originally Posted by smacklan

Where do you get 1.2 million dead? What we have done, is free the Iraqi's from Saddam so they can exterminate each other...lotta love between those muslim brothers over there.

Agreed.

Removing a leader (no matter how awful) does no good if you don't have a plan for his people after he leaves (or is killed). If you go back through history you'll see the results of doing that time and time again.

I don't support a "pull out" because it's the worse thing we can do at this point. It'll take years and years to fix and I don't have all the answers but we need to do something to resolve the issues in Iraq.

Our goals should be:

1) Removal of US troops over time. If we are doing the things we should be in Iraq we should be able to remove a number or troops over a period of years. Removing them all tomorrow would be useless (the warlords in the area would just fight with each other after we leave in an attempt to control resources). Leaving them over there for an extended time (5 - 10 more years) in full force is also a bad option.

In other words we need a smooth, steady, withdraw from Iraq.

2) The Iraqi people must be able to Govern and protect themselves from outside threats and threats from within their own country. If we do not achieve the goal of putting a stable government in place all of this was for nothing.

Of course this all goes out the window if things don't go perfectly. Am I the only one that thinks Iraq will no longer be a country years from now? I honestly think it'll split itself into smaller countries over time if the Iraqi people can't agree on (and accept the workings of) their new government.

Our goal should be to repeat the success in Japan after WWII.

edit- I should mention that I never agreed with or supported going into Iraq in the first place. IMHO we did a bad thing by going in no matter how much people talk about removing "Saddam and his evil empire".

We've screwed up and now it's up to us to make it *right*. That's why I *do* support staying there until things are stable, no matter how long that takes.

[Ncturnal]

Originally Posted by smacklan

Well, I would argue with your assessment we are responsible for their hatred for one another. What I will ask, is those who are fervently opposed to the war such as yourself never seem to offer any suggestions on how to make it right (pulling out is a stupid answer, so please don't go there). Also, Ron Paul for Pres...thanks for the chuckle...I needed the laugh this afternoon

I didn't mean to imply that we are responsible for the hatred they have for one another. I meant we were responsible for a most of the 655,000 that have died. I'm not even sure if the 655,000 figure includes the ones that have killed each other.

Suggestions going forward? Stop ++++ing around with the internal affairs of other countries. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and we have some overwhelming problems at home that need to be corrected before we are qualified to preach to others that there is a better way.

How is pulling out a stupid answer? We are going to have to leave eventually and the net result will be the same whether we leave 1 year from now or 10 years from now. History repeats itself and this is very much like Vietnam. Everyone said there would be chaos when we left there and communism would over run the world but it never happened. We lost 60,000 troops and Vietnam lost 3,000,000 people. We didn't accomplish anything by imposing our will and going in on false pretenses and Iraq is no exception. At the rate we are going, we will have no choice but to leave Iraq for economic reasons because we are hemorrhaging and nearing total bankruptcy. The dollar is nearing collapse and countries are already starting to drop it to use the Euro instead. The current course is not sustainable especially when we borrow the money from China to fund the war. At some point the money will stop and they will not be able to tax enough to cover the costs. Then what do you suggest? It is morally wrong to offload the burden of our mistakes to the next generation of Americans.

So Ron Paul as President makes you laugh? Why is that? Because he's honest? Because he's the only one that has a clue about the economy? Because he's one of the only defenders of our liberties in Washington? Because he votes against all the wasteful spending? Because he's the only one that takes the oath to uphold that worthless piece of paper we call the Constitution? I suppose you're right. We'd be much better off with the corrupt, business as usual politicians who have done so well up to this point. Get real.