Proposal: The vBulletin.org Commercial Services and Addons Directory.

[peterska2]

My views and assessment of the commercial products directory.

I have taken each paragraph and addressed it in turn so it is rather long I'm afraid. I hope that you find it informative.

All quotes are Wayne Luke.

Several solutions have been proposed from new sites, commercial forums, advertising on different pages and a directory. After discussion with the Jelsoft Staff, we have decided that a Directory is probably the best course of action. This satisfies two things. First, the forums on this site will be reserved for free and colloborative development. Second, the directory will be self-contained within vBulletin.org and use its permission system as well as the vBulletin Licensing system. This means we can deny complete access to non-licensed members and those advertisers would be known vBulletin users.

1. While a directory is a good idea in principal, I don't believe the right place for it is here at vB.org as I feel that it will take away from the environment of generosity that has become a central part of vB.org. By this I mean that a lot of the more talented coders will gradually move to paid releases only. This will then leave the average user with either nothing to install, or just things of poor quality done by the more mediocre coders. I actually include myself in that catagory as I know that I will probably never be able to release the major mods that could go as paid for releases.
2. How exactly would the licencing system be used with regards to this? If it is to be used like the current system where any Tom, Steve or Harry can view the releases but not access the downloads or attachements nor post in that section, then this could possibly be a tool for encouraging people to purchase vBulletin because of the range of modifications available. However, if all access is denied to non-licenced users then how will potential customers be able to find out what is available? If you link the possibility of the free releases declining steadily in number with the complete lockout of the paid for modifications for non-licenced users, then this will equal going to a rival software as it will appear that vBulletin modifications are few in number and of potentially poor quality.
3. As someone who was happily running a free forums software for a while before coming to vB, I must point out that one of the reasons that I came to vB was the flexability of the software and the ability to easily modify it using the wide range of mods available which I viewed repeatedly before deciding to make my purchase. Had this not been the case, then I would probably have stuck with the rival software as it did the job and has modifications available for it, even though they are more difficult to implement. For low traffic sites like mine, paid for software is a luxary that we can't really afford and so potentially going to a majority of paid for modifications will just mean that I either have to revert to a stock version or go elsewhere for my software needs as I will simply be priced out of the market.

The Directory will allow people to advertise their commercial add-ons and hacks to the tens of thousands of vBulletin customers. It will give those same customers a centralized location to find these resources. In addition, links can be purchased by style designers, webmasters, and other service providers so people can have easy access to the resources they need for the best community sites on the Internet.

1. Yes, I agree that it will make it easier to find the paid releases as they will all be in one place, but how many vBulletin users actually come to vB.org? Probably less than 25% on a regular basis (working on one visit every 6 months being regular). Would a link to the directory be placed on vB.com? Probably not, as that would make it look like these commercial releases are supported by Jelsoft.
2. links can be purchased by style designers, webmasters, and other service providers. This reads as though Tom, Steve or Harry could purchase a link to point to anything. It could be used to link to somewhere where they say "Webmaster available for hire. For more details contact Harry via email at harry@tomsteveandharry.com" Yes this isn't what you mean, but on paragraph by paragraph analysis this is how it reads. And what sort of things would come under "other service providers"? That could be anything from the sublime to the ridiculous (I had a couple of examples but decided not to use them due to the U rating of the site).

This will be a main section of the site and any customer will be able to participate. The links will be purchased for a moderate fee but that has not been determined yet. The directory will be moderated by myself and vBulletin.org staff and there will be guidelines for submission. I also want to institute ways for people to get links in the directory through community involvement on this site. Things that would allow this would be free of charge addon releases and template/style modifications released.

1. Surely it should be a minor section of the site and not a main one? Making it a main section will potentially take the emphasis away from the free releases and helpful community that we have here and instead place this all on the commercial products and services.
2. Purchasing the links is a sensible idea. However, will this then mean that to have a link in your signature, a homepage URL, or post your link as a live demo of a modification you have to purchase this right? Or do you just have to purchase it to go into the directory? If you have purchased a link for in the directory, does this then mean that you can put your commercial link in your signature or elsewhere on the site?
3. Regarding the moderation of the directory, there is the potential for staff members to misuse this facilty and deny applications from people who they personally dislike, or apply some sort of discount to those who they do like. I'm not saying that any of the current staff members would do this, only that there is the potential for abuse of the system.
4. With the guidelines for submission, would they cover the little things like demos must be available, as well as the major things like this must be supported with a response time of less than 24 hours while the link is active in the directory? The last thing that Jelsoft and vB.org need is a directory of unsupported commercial products as this will potentially lead to a lot of negative postings here at vB.org as well as potentially at vB.com. This in turn could potentially drive away potential customers of the vBulletin software.
5. To get a FOC link I'm assuming that someone with little or no coding experience could potentially just rumble up a couple of totally useless releases and then because they have released something could potentially then be able to use the directory to increase their traffic. What about if there is a condition placed on getting a FOC link of having x posts at vB.org and vB.com? Potentially this could lead to a lot of spamming of both sites. You would be amazed just how many posts you can run up just by going through every single release and saying 'nice work' or 'don't think I'll use this one'. Does anyone really want to run the risk of the site be potentially over run by short-term spammers who just want to get a FOC link in the directory?

There is no liability. We will not be hosting these commercial addons on this site. The links will be links to the Author's webpage. There is no more liability for a dead link than there is for Google or Yahoo having dead links in their directory.

1. However, who do you sue if you purchase a kettle from your supermarket and the water leaks and scolds you? Do you sue the manufactor for making a defective product? Or do you sue the retailer for allowing a defective product to be sold? Probably both. Sufficient legal advice must be sought before embarking on this as there will always be the disgruntaled customer who will come back at Jelsoft for allowing a defective product to be sold through their site. What would happen in the instance of a commercial product being purchased and installed and causing a problem with the vBulletin software, which when support is sought for that product is not forthcoming even after countless emails and pleas for help in their support forums? Will Jelsoft entertain this customer and repair their boards and remove the modification? Or will the customer be referred back to the commercial product support system?
2. Not hosting the products here does not relieve Jelsoft of all liability. That is a bit like saying that the Bank of England will not assist you with the replacement of outdated currency to new currency because you got the currency from another source. Or what about your company being a day late with your wages so your direct debits do not be paid from your bank account? Who would be liable for that? Yes, your company. Not you, nor your bank, nor the company who the payment was to. There are so many possibilities for legal disaster here that I strongly recommend legal advice being sought from a solictor who has experience in dealing with international online trade.

Fees will be available on a monthly and yearly basis. The exact fees haven't been determined yet. All income earned will go to benefit this site, either for additional software needed over the long term or to support the staff.

1. Sopporting the staff through payments of fees from a directory that they moderate the submissions to is again a potential for disaster. Potentially the staff could decline all FOC requests and only approve the ones that incur fees as the FOC ones do not line their pockets. As vB.org staff are voluntary then any renumeration will affect this voluntary status making them employees. As an employee there is then tax status to be taken into account and it could significantly affect peoples finances. In the UK an increase in earnings of just ?1.00 can reduce the amount of tax credits recieved by someone on a low income by hundreds of Pounds. In addition to this, any staff that are on any form of benefit (we don't know their personal situations so there potentially could be) will then have to decide whether to continue working at vB.org and losing their benefit (as most of them are means tested based on income), or resigning from vB.org and remaining on their benefit. The penalties for messing about with this are high and can lead to imprisonment.
2. Using the fees to support the site in terms of hosting costs, domain name renewal, etc, would be a more sensible way of doing this. This would also potentially prevent any misuse of the directory submissions as the money would not be going to the staff. We all know that Jelsoft are perfectly capable of maintaining the hosting and domain etc anyway so there would be no pressure on the staff to reject FOC submissions due to the renumeration recieved.

There is no proof that commercial software will eliminate free of charge addons. In fact software markets suggest the exact opposite is happening in the world. Commercial Offerings are becoming scarcer as companies merge or drop products while free of charge software is becoming more prevalent. This is not a trend but something that can be traced over the last 20 years. There is a place for both, even addons in both commercial and free of charge that do the same thing by different authors. Look at phpBB. It is successful and was originally released after vBulletin. Not to mention other free forum systems out there.

1. Yes phpBB is free. However, do you remember the outcry last year when IPB went from free to paid? There is the potential for a similar thing to happen here. There will be people who say "$160 for vBulletin then to modify it the way I want it I'm gonna need another $500 to purchase the modifications! I'll go to phpBB. They're free and have free modifications." How many free quality programmes do you see for Windows software? Do you really think you could get something equivalent to MS Word for free? No. The same could potentially happen here. If something good is developed then the first thing that the coder will say before releasing is "Can I make any money from this?" If they think 'yes' then it will be a paid release. As it stands a number of the top quality releases are already paid for. Have you tried to get a decent photo gallery to work with 3.5.x? If you have you will know that the free releases here don't even come remotely close to the quality of the commercial releases.

In conclusion, I personally don't think that the commercial directory is in the best interests of the site. However, I have taken each paragraph of Wayne's posts and looked at them in detail and objectively. I have also looked for any potential risks and problems and highlighted them accordingly.

You will notice that I have use the word 'potential' a lot, but that is because nothing is certain and things may or may not pan out in the way that I have described. There are risks involved as there are with every new venture and so I decided that the best way forward would be to highlight these risks as well as putting forward my own personal point of view and illustrations.

Yes, this has been an extremely long post, but I believe that as this discussion is unfolding it is better to be thorough than to be a bit blase about it and just say a couple of words. Detail says a lot more than an 'I agree' or 'No, not a good idea' in my opinion.

I thank you for taking the time to read this.

Kerry-Anne

[fyjpm]

A commerical add-ons directory is an excellent idea. I think your 2 best options are:

1.) Implement your proposal just like you have it.

OR

2.) creating a separate domain name for the directory as was suggested by a few ppl. a domain name really wouldn't make a difference, you will still just click the link that says "Commercial Addons Directory" or what have you. Placement of the link to the directory is totally up to you.

Personally, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me if it was within vbulletin.org or outside it.

As for legality, liability, and what you do with the proceeds - that is up to you and God bless America! I know I wouldn't be losing any sleep over business liability for listing links on a website, nor would I even waste a phone call to my lawyer.

Best Regards & fortune to you.

[Blam Forumz]

I think it is an absoultely brilliant idea, and it should go full steam ahead

[akanevsky]

Yes, this is definitely a good idea. I agree with everything princeton said.

EDIT: I do not agree with the post below mine. IMHO, hacks should all be in one place. That way it's easier for everyone. It should be a separate area within the site though.

[FASherman]

I think any proposal has to include a feedback mechanism. If I purchase an add-on and its great stuff, I should be able to say so. If it is "not so great", other users should be warned. It has to be more than a pay-for-listing link farm.

[friendly]

This sounds like a brilliant idea!. As a non programmer, when I visit this board, I'm usually on a specific mission. I sincerely appreciate every coder who takes time out of their lives to create free mods or addons that enhance my website. However, I'd rather pay for services or mods than not have access to them at all.

Free coders can keep doing what they do while others who prefer to charge for their services be allowed to do so without being viewed as turncoats or capitalist monsters.

After squandering money on scripts which just aren't up to par with VBulletin and mods found on this site, I've come to the realization that developing around the VB framework is the best way to go.

I'm for social consciousness and all that, but everyone should be entitled to earn a living as long as there's no fleecing going on.

I do agree that a system like Hotscripts would be good to use..

Just my thoughts....

[yessir]

I think "support the staff" is being misunderstood.

I read it to mean funds put towards software for the long term or used to support the staff.

I'm not seeing a cash grab here.

Proposal looks good, but others look good as well. This one will work if the membership shows maturity dealing with paid/free issues. I've seen this on other boards and it comes down to individuals acting responsibly and hack authors being accountable with their support and development.

[DataAve]

There is just something missing here and does not sound right.

[Viks]

I want access to Mods for vbulletin... commercial or otherwise... I need to know what is out there. I support vb.org's decision to allow a directory of commercial mods...anything else that would inform me of the hacks that are out there, available for vB users.

Thanks

[sitka]

well, personally I just don't understand. let them advertise their services. please do not distract from the free hacks/styles/plugins, etc. many sites have paid advertisers showing off their services. target them in the appropriate section and leave it to that.