Regarding the vBHosting Hack

[Kaelon]

Our company's attorney, who specializes in Intellectual Property law, concurs with SpeedStreet's assessment.

That said, other large-scale forum software communities - like Ultimate Bulletin Board, or phpBB - have thrived in large part because of the autonomy of their coder and hacker communities. This is often considered a principal precondition upon the long-term viability and success of forum software in general - its ability to be modified to suit the needs and desires of its legitimate customers. If you consider the few case studies of forum software companies that have restricted or prohibited modification of their software in any form (e.g., WowBB, Wonderboard, and the like) it makes perfect sense for communities to pursue autonomous coding development environments.

Kaelon

[twoseven]

speed i totally understand those ramifications and what about releasing hacks that will actually spawn other hacks in a positive manor. right now i may have to write this script from scratch because its not available. which makes me mad. someone took his time to release something that could be of benifit and due to its power is removed.

[FASherman]

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

Personal Liabililty can only be avoided in the instance of the foundation of articles of incorporation, or the development into a Limited Liability Partnership.

Thats not entirely true. There are other methods as well.

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

I really don't think you understand the ramifications of what you think you are trying to do FASherman.

Sure I do.

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

YOU DO NOT OWN YOUR COPY OF VBULLETIN. You are merely the purchaser of a license allowing you to run that specific copy on one server, one domain in one instance. You retain no legal rights whatsoever to modify, alter, change, dispose of or replicate the code in any way, shape or form with Jelsoft's implied or direct consent. It would be *VER* easy for Jelsoft to add some verbiage into the existing licensing agreement stating that any code modifications to their software package are only availible for distribution from their own, controlled websites. This is their right when dealing with Intelectual Domain in the International Copyright Theater.

The License Agreement already allows for code modifications.

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

I decided (in the OODLES of free time I seem to have when I neglect my work) to do some further research into International Copyright law regarding Licensing Agreements, and I'm sorry to say that JelSoft does retain the right under certain conditions to modify the existing licensing agreement and enforce it retroactively on existing clients and license holders. The letter of the law is written to protect the authors, not the customer...as it should be.

That is correct. The letter of the law is applied to the Licensing Agreement and in cases where it is completely unambiguous, it is applied to protect the author. In cases where the license is ambiguous, then the interpretation is given to protect the defendent, not the author. Your analysis was only half-complete. Thats why Kier's "spirit of the contract" post was laughable.

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

Don't sit here and try to stage a little coup. Up until this point, there have been two hacks in dispute, and now everyone is talking about leaving the site....That's great. Let's splinter the community even further so even less can get done.

I'm glad those brave men who gathered in Philadelphia in 1776 had a little more backbone than you're demonstrating. Remember, we are REACTING to a Jelsoft action - deleting a hack because its not in their interest, not because it violates the LA. That determination can only be made in court be a judge.

The reality is they are enforcing their opinion as edict. They can only do this because it is their site. On a site free from their self-serving rules, their opinion becomes just that - an opinion. For it to have the full force of law, they have to file suit and carry the burden of proof. It ratches the argument up a few notches because if they fail to do due diligence, they stand to not only lose a suit, but a load of money as well in the inevitable counter-suit. They will not be able to be so cavalier as to assume they can impose the "spirit of the contract", something that has no legal weight.

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

Without a centralized hub for modifiers, vBulletin will fall by the wayside.

That is their choice. They precipitated this situation.

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

Hacks will become more poorly written...

The community of hackers is already self-policing on quality. This site has a load of poorly written hacks and hackers that call them on it. One of my first hacks falls into this category, so I know what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

... you'll have to check five or six sites to get what you want...

Hasn't Jelsoft already pushed us in this direction? Try posting a "template" hack here and watch the mods flame you. It belongs on one of the other Jelsoft sites.

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

...and those that do not pay for vBulletin will then have access to that which sets our sites apart from theirs.

We wouldn't be responsible for that. The only way that situation could possibly exist is if the base code is pirated. It is not our job to police the internet for Jelsoft's pirated software. Thats there job. I would say that we should ask everyone for their license and co-operate with providing user information if someone from Jelsoft identifies that as a pirate copy. Additionally, if they want to provide us a list of pirated licenses, I'm sure we would block them from registration and report their personal information proactively.

But as far as having them approve/disapprove the content, no way in hell.

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

Think about what you are doing, and please drop it.

When I see this hack reinstated, perhaps. But there may already be too much water under the bridge. Some actions, once began, take on a life of their own.

[13th_Disciple]

i don't think anyone is attempting a coup.. i also think smart enough admins know to restrict the creation of forums to only those that must be moderated.. ie.. ask for a forum, if it is legit, you get.. if not.. you get lost..

however, all that being said, i think the hack (vBhosting) was a LEGIT hack for LEGIT uses and as has been pointed out, almost all hacks can be used in a way for not so great means.. not to mention the software itself can be used for ill means.. such as forums set up where speech is so that it borders on liable, discrimination and anti-semetic.. but you can only patrol so much in a day..

governing is sometimes better left in the hands of the people licenses and laws are meant to govern.. not in the hands of a government or governing body..

i am not willing to set up a site in direct competition with any one particular party or entity.. but i don't think restricting the type of hacks made, unless the sole purpose is to generate harm or break law/copyright/trademark rules and/or laws..

i see no basic harm in this hack, and i see no basic harm in the lockdown hack.. i see basic harm in preventing people from gaining knowledge.. therefore insuring not only hostility, but genuine ignorance when there is no need for either.. ignorance is not bliss when there is a chance to give the knowledge and not maintain the ignorance..

anyway, if nemisis wants to set up a site, and he is willing to share his name and allow it hosted on my box, and dark wizard and miratos are willing to lend their ability to moderate and generally help run the boards, then i see no reason not to have a more open forum willing to discuss the pros and cons of EVERYTHING and not seek approval before generating a debate based on those pros and cons..

i will not seek to be an approved site of jelsoft.. i don't care about all of that.. nor do i think most honest people here, and even those dishonest.. let's face it, we all love the software (vBulletin) but we don't like the mushrooming (kept in the dark and fed ++++) mentality that has been increasing now for ages.. it is not only not fair to people who pat 85 to 160 for this software, it is unfair to the makers, in the long run, because then you have no chance to see the potential for good that can come out of something that at first glance may seem bad..

so if folks want to do a site, i am all for it and will deal with it on my box.. if not, that is ok too.. but an OPEN forum does not exist within any vB community.. and personally, i am ready for an OPEN FORUM to speak in.. and not have to constantly question myself and wonder if what i said is ok or not..

damn.. sorry about the diatribe..

[Xenon]

Erm, let me throw in a fact:

The vb hosting hack has not been removed because of the fact that this site is controlled by Jelsoft.
It has been removed, because Jelsoft thinks that it is breaking the License agreement.
As i already said, the lawyers will have to look at this and decide, wether or not Jelsoft is right.

BUT: If Jelsoft is right, that this hack is breaking the License agreement, no other site is allowed to release this hack as well, as you're then supporting an illegal activity. So this whole discussion about another Hacking site because of this special topic here is irrelevant.

[nighteyes]

Originally Posted by Xenon

Erm, let me throw in a fact:

The vb hosting hack has not been removed because of the fact that this site is controlled by Jelsoft.
It has been removed, because Jelsoft thinks that it is breaking the License agreement.
As i already said, the lawyers will have to look at this and decide, wether or not Jelsoft is right.

BUT: If Jelsoft is right, that this hack is breaking the License agreement, no other site is allowed to release this hack as well, as you're then supporting an illegal activity. So this whole discussion about another Hacking site because of this special topic here is irrelevant.

Just because Jelsoft's paid lawyers say the hack is in breach of the licensing agreement, does not mean it actually is. As has already been discussed heavily here, the point is disputed and the only way to get a fair ruling is if Jelsoft chooses to pursue this matter in a court of law - with an impartial judge.

The fact that Jelsoft is apparently consulting with lawyers tells everyone there's no chance in hell this hack is ever coming back, whether its legal or illegal. They don't want people using it, they don't want to risk losing a few sales and they are now trying to ensure their licensing agreement covers and prevents another situation like this from happening again. Jelsoft has every right to enforce their licensing agreement to the letter.... but don't pass the buck and say any lawyers are to blame for this situation as it stands now.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by SpeedStreet

Up until this point, there have been two hacks in dispute, and now everyone is talking about leaving the site....That's great. Let's splinter the community even further so even less can get done.

Hey Speed...I just want you to know, your ability to argue far outclasses mine, so I won't even try to compete on your level...but I did want to bring up just a couple of points.

Right now it is 2 hacks...it could be 3 next week...and 4 the week after...maybe 5 next month...etc. It isn't the number of hacks...its the principle. Especially when the reason for the removal of the hacks is nebulous at best.

The splintering of the community is something that TPTB brought on themselves with their heavy handed actions, policies and fostering of distrust and division within the community.

Xenon - it's not just all about this one hack either...this is just like the straw that broke the camel's back. Lockdown didn't break the LA. Again, it has to do with the principle.

As for whether or not it breaks the LA...only a judge can make that decision if the hack author wishes to put legal opinion to the test.

----

I think that the funny thing is...this hack probably would never have gotten so much attention if it had been left alone or if they had quietly asked for the name to be changed.

But hey...I could be wrong...IANAL...I reserve the right to be wrong on all counts.

and I am still up for helping with an unofficial hack site.

[Zachery]

Originally Posted by Miratos

Hey Speed...I just want you to know, your ability to argue far outclasses mine, so I won't even try to compete on your level...but I did want to bring up just a couple of points.

Right now it is 2 hacks...it could be 3 next week...and 4 the week after...maybe 5 next month...etc. It isn't the number of hacks...its the principle. Especially when the reason for the removal of the hacks is nebulous at best.

The splintering of the community is something that TPTB brought on themselves with their heavy handed actions, policies and fostering of distrust and division within the community.

Xenon - it's not just all about this one hack either...this is just like the straw that broke the camel's back. Lockdown didn't break the LA. Again, it has to do with the principle.

As for whether or not it breaks the LA...only a judge can make that decision if the hack author wishes to put legal opinion to the test.

----

I think that the funny thing is...this hack probably would never have gotten so much attention if it had been left alone or if they had quietly asked for the name to be changed.

But hey...I could be wrong...IANAL...I reserve the right to be wrong on all counts.

and I am still up for helping with an unofficial hack site.

The lockdown hacks policy is Jelsofts and it was imposed at the original hacking forum at vBulletin.com. It is used most of the time on warez boards for bad reasons, thus its not allowed.

[13th_Disciple]

But the hack itself is not warez, not breaking the LA and not something everyone would use..

again, you have to ask is it the higher ups that want to run everything for everybody, or is it the admins that have the licenses that run the boards that should be allowed to make their own decisions..

the decision to not allow the hack, as Miratos pointed out for vBhosting, as was the same for the lockdown hack, has generated more crap about either hack than what would have been generated by the thread for the hack alone..

i personally am all for jelsoft and making a buck or two.. but i have common sense and am well able to govern myself and my server and my vB license.. without the interference of vBulletin.org, vBulletin.com or Jelsoft proper, thank you very much.

[GameCrash]

Originally Posted by JohnXWA

FASherman, thanks for the heads up but it won't let me register at this time. If you could send me the hack though i'd apprecaite it.

SpeedStreet, thats fair enough but just cuz you won't does not mean others won't.

Thanks

Redistributing of this hack is not allowed by the hacks license. So nobody will send it to you. It's that simple...