Angry .Orgers

[Xplorer4x4]

Originally Posted by MPDev

Given that the "majority" of people here (read 100%) purchased vBulletin, I sincerely doubt you can make the case that nobody has any money to buy anything else. I suspect if that were true, they would have elected to use a "free" forum to begin with. So let's not play the "can't afford it, so it doesn't belong" card again, it doesn't hold any water here.

Wrong for the second time. You have no idea what it is like for the person on the other end.

[MPDev]

Originally Posted by Xplorer4x4

Wrong for the second time. You have no idea what it is like for the person on the other end.

Then how can I be wrong? And, technically, I only said I didn't think he could make the case and made no judgement about the "person on the other end".

[Talisman]

This site was created as a place where licensed vB owners could share modifications - for free - to support each other. And that's how vb.org needs to stay. Just because elaborate hacks and add-ons can be sold and some so-called "professional" coders resent the NO SOLICITING sign over the door is no reason to change the core purpose of this site.

Look at all the commercial sites out there now that function for the sole purpose of selling vB hacks, styles, and add-ons. If we let those folks turn this .org site into some Jelsoft-supported clearing house for all of those other, competing commercial efforts ... then where else are vB license owners supposed to go to share FREE hacks and customizations?

This is the only place possible that can allow board owners to give support to each other. Don't mess this up.

[MPDev]

I certainly don't resent that paid add-ons are not embraced on this site, I fully recognize that the owners are free to set their own agenda and follow it. I participate in the spirit in which the forum operates and I offer modifications I've made to others at no cost. I've never complained or suggested that I wouldn't participate otherwise.

But knowing that every site evolves over time to accommodate its members, I think there is room for promoting paid add-ons. That doesn't change my opinion about the value offered by this site, I just happen to think that the market has matured enough that it should be a consideration. I'm more than willing to discuss the pros/cons in a reasonable manner - if someone says they don't belong because nobody can afford them, I would suggest otherwise based on my 5 years of selling add-ons for vBulletin. If someone says they don't belong because it's too much work, then I would compare it to adding styles and ask is it really that much more effort? If you don't want to have the discussion, then don't try to use excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny - just say you won't allow them because you don't want them here. There is no argument to counter that.

[MJM]

Nobody HAS to start with vB. There's many free alternatives, and the only person that can justifiably complain about the cost of vB is someone living in a 3rd world country earning $1 a day.
The fact is, when it comes to investing $$$ for interactive internet software, the cost of vB is a pittance compared to all the other expenses involved, especially if one takes into account the time and effort needed to develop a site.

Pre 2000, I never wrote period, never touched a keyboard/computer or used the net.
My interest was never about the computer internet, rather, how to use this medium to share specific interests, ideas and experiences with others around the world.
I had wrongly presumed in 2000 that internet technology was more advanced more user-friendly ... To the contrary, it has been a wild ride along the razors edge of technological innovation, and after 5 years I'm somewhat battered but 90+ % satisfied with the results.
It's the 10% that I may need mods/plugins.

If I end up having to pay for some, so be it, I'll start saving up.

But the fact that many have offered their mods for free should never be underestimated (in this dog eat dog world we live in)

It's unfortunate that to hear that few bother to contribute with a donation.

A suggestion ... auto include a succinct line encouraging installers to donate.

Think of how other NP org's phrase things in their fund drives.

There are many benefits to supporting/contributing to free services.
The community spirit is one.

I'm very glad that the vB.org community exists, as this is where I can learn all about the cutting edge, far out stuff that can be done with vB.

For a starter, I would like to see an easy method/ directory/list of coders and the free hacks they have produced.
If each coder had a link to their site, with paid versions, so much the better!

I personally will base my mod choices on the track record of what a coder has contributed to vB.org AND of other vB/non vb related products that they may provide.

Let's face it, when you use a software app of any kind it's like entering a marriage of which divorce could be brutal.
We using vB are fortunate, with I hope, few divorces.
And though we might gripe about some things not panning out as anticipated, we can always come to vB.org for therapy

~ Mark

[Talisman]

Originally Posted by MPDev

If you don't want to have the discussion, then don't try to use excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny - just say you won't allow them because you don't want them here. There is no arguement to counter that.

You know what... speaking for me, personally, that is exactly what I'm saying. I don't want commercial projects advertised here ... period. And I know I'm not the only member who feels this way.

This doesn't mean that I don't ALSO support commercial hacks that are sold someplace else. I've also purchased several premium add-ons and premium styles because I decided they were worth the added expense ... for my site. We all make that decision for ourselves.

That being said, just what are those "... excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny" you're referring to? I've seen plenty of those posted on both sides of the question.. but mostly from angry people who're doing little more than throwing rocks at each other.

Let's look at some points made throughout this thread... Many of the advanced coders here have given away an enormous amount of free hacks. And no matter how diligent they were and how helpful and generous they've been, they still got badgered by thoughtless idiots who whined over every imaginable bug and truly expected to come here and get personal services for nothing. So many of these coders got fed up/burned out and they packed up their cookies and went home. Or, they set up a commercial site somewhere else so they could at least get some money back for the hard work they put into this (which is fine).

Will allowing commercial hackers to advertise here change or improve any of this? No. Not a chance. It just means those self-absorbed jerks will have paid hard-earned money for what they got, and that gives them a legitimate reason to complain when something isn't well coded and demand the higher level of support services they bought. Those hassles simply don't belong here. It interferes with the real purpose why this extended community is here.

Look what has happened to this site over the last few years just from what little advertsing and self-promotion that has been allowed in this far. I've read those well-intended threads where some guy got ripped off (or merely think he got ripped off) by another member who agreed to install a hack for $$$. Those almost always degrade into an endless pissing contest between people who also got taken vs. loyal customers and faithful friends who jump in to defend the poor sot who just got blasted in public. In the end, it's always the same thing. It's all one person's word against another in a situation where we'll never know who's right and who's wrong. And the same old advice the purchaser didn't heed in the first place... to not pay for services upfront when dealing with someone you don't know.

Is this the natural evolution everyone wants more of here? Not me... not at all. And why should the vb.org staff, or Jelsoft representatives for that matter, be bothered with crap like this ... here at vb.org? That's not their mess to clean up.

They allowed in a small section where buyers and sellers could get connected.. people can offer to pay someone to do work for them and commercial coders can contact members directly to quote their fees. A lot of good may or may not have come from that... personally, I haven't participated there so I can't speak for either side in those transactions. But there's a spillover effect that's easy to see all over the other sections of this site. And it's a horrible change that has affected how people relate to each other in this community.

As an example -- A new licensed member gets in way over his head, technically, and something he thought was easy to do blows up his site. He comes here asking ... sometimes begging ... for someone to PLEASE help him fix his board. Or asks for advice on how to fix it himself. Not everyone in a situation like that gets very good assistance. And it really saddens me to see replies to that person where another member says, oh I can fix it for you if you're willing to pay what I charge for my time. It wasn't all that long ago when someone else would have answered that thread with basic helpful advice for FREE, telling him to use the search feature or pointing him to a well-known thread that will help him solve his own problem and learn how to manage his own changes. But those people don't post those replies anymore. Someone else already did in a different way, so they let it go.

A while later the same person posts another plea for help that goes unanswered ... then the thread drops away and I don't know if that person ever even comes back here anymore.

Look at how many times new people post the first time saying they're willing to pay $20 to anyone who will help them. Or asking how much would it cost to hire someone to... etc.... etc....

We weren't getting all that nonsense here two years ago.

[ludachris]

Originally Posted by The Geek

Though I see what you are saying its like making a requirement for the users of free hacks to buy every third one.

Some work can not be made LITE and supporting and maintaining LITE and PRO versions can drive you salivatingly mad. People should not be forced to give up their time for nothing. If they can, then we should support them, if not we should support them. Either way we should support those that offer us tools we feel make vBulletin better.

Thanks

Well, it's just a thought. The idea is to help keep the free hacks from dying out as coders start becoming more interested in being paid. I think vB.org should allow commercial hacks to be posted here on the site, as it would be useful for all of us. And certainly some hacks should be payed for with the amount of development time involved. However, there needs to be some type of requirement in place that forces the commercial coders to keep creating free hacks if they want to be able to post their commercial hacks. Maybe making a LITE version of the payed hack isn't the answer, but the requirement could be something like - for every new commecial hack you post, you must also post one new free hack. You get the idea. There IS a way to make it work.

This site was built on free hacks. Ever since the payed request area opened, far fewer coders tend to give advice. It seems like they're all hanging out in the paid section now. Just look at how many hacks there were for vB2 compared to vB3. Hell, I'd venture to guess that half the 3.0 hacks will never be ported over to 3.5 because most people don't feel like volunteering while watching others get payed. If vb.org allowed commercial hacks without a way to keep the free hacks from dying, this site would lose its spirit completely. Why create a free hack when you can get payed? There needs to be a balance if commercial hacks are allowed here.

I'm all for supporting both the commercial and free hacks - but when money starts getting thrown around, greed takes over and the sharing/helping spirit fades - capitalism at its finest I suppose. Anyway, I hope there can be a compromise and a solution that will make us all happy AND keep the spirit of this site alive.

Originally Posted by MJM

Nobody HAS to start with vB. There's many free alternatives, and the only person that can justifiably complain about the cost of vB is someone living in a 3rd world country earning $1 a day. The fact is, when it comes to investing $$$ for interactive internet software, the cost of vB is a pittance compared to all the other expenses involved, especially if one takes into account the time and effort needed to develop a site.

~ Mark

Hey Mark, some of us built and launched our sites for less than half the cost of vBulletin (not considering my time - which didn't cost me a penny). This forum script was by far my largest expense when creating my first community site from scratch. Anyone can justifiably complain about the cost of vB and commercial hacks - it's not cheap, but it's the best out there. Not everyone can afford it or justify paying for it. Not everyone has been able to set their site up in a way to recoup the costs. And it's difficult to sit here and read posts by people making light of others' financial situations. To assume that an owned license ($160 or $80 per year) is a drop in the bucket for everyone here is a bit unfair. Just because they paid for a license doesn't mean they have money to burn. But this isn't the point that should be debated anyway.

It's not about whether or not people are able to pay for a hack - some can, some can't. It's not about a coder's choice to charge for a hack - that's their perogative. It's about whether or not paid hacks should be allowed to be promoted on a site that was originally launched to allow vB license owners to share hacks amongst eachother - for free. Let's debate the correct topic and stop making assumptions/judgements about one another.

I still think we could have a section where commercial hacks are posted (maybe not supported here, but linked to), as long as the coders agree to continue to make new free hacks available as well. If you're going to promote your commercial services here, you should continue to contribute in a way that fits in with the spirit of the site.

[MJM]

Talisman wrote ... "We weren't getting all that nonsense here two years ago."

Well there's gonna be more nonsense now as non-tech vB'ers like me discover the ease of installing plugins, which doesn't = bug-free/trouble-free plugins, which = more support requests from newcomer bonefide newbies.

This shouldn't be a problem if others using the free plugins who have some knowledge chip in with newbie support issues ...

Overall it's vb who should also be benefiting from contributions to vB.org, and if this is reflected in their sales, perhaps they could donate extra funds towards staff support etc.

It is in vB.coms best interest to make vB.org the best it can be ...

I personally think vB has been slow to introduce new user noticeable features in the 4 years I've had their software though will accept this for other efforts to build a rock solid platform.
But if the vB.org had not been here, I most certainly would have been looking for greener pastures.

~ Mark

[MPDev]

You know, instead of another forum a simple hotscripts.com for vB add-ons (free or not) would be benefitial. With a rating/comment system in place you can forgo the whole vB.org duplication and just provide a nice resource index to add-ons for vBulletin.

[MJM]

I recently saw a product (not a forum software) that had included 30 + plugins with it's product ... basically it gives the consumer much better control from the start, of what they want as part of their product.

I am guessing that plugins are an overdue concept and if implemented earlier in vB development vB might be different.

I personally feel that if vb didn't have to spend the time and energy to work on the guts of this app, that numerous mods at vb.org would now be part of vb3.
I am only bringing this up because of my experience with other software providers who didn't have as active mod community instead went ahead and came up with many features that members requested, including support. This is what makes them great products.

What surprises me is that there appears to be very few mods at vB.org that are now a part of vB3+ (Am I wrong? )

Not knowing much about techno business issues I would have thought there would be more financial incentive and a workable relationship between coders, mods and the vB product.

Essentially vB must ensure that new features be continually added to this product at no increase to the price of the product, though it might charge extra for advanced plugins.

I would think it'd be a difficult decision as an independent coder to expend a great deal of time on a complex mod if vb also had one up it's sleeve.

Well, all I can say is the times are a changing.

~ Mark