The Ethics of Updating for VB3 a VB2 Hack That You Didn't Write

[speedway]

While I see some of the arguments here hold water, not all do. Updating code and releasing it as your own is wrong, definately.

Rewriting and using some of the same coding techniques is unavoidable, there are only so many ways to skin a cat. There is no way that anyone can lay claim to an if-else statement, a SQL statement or much else in the coding department. Complete packages - yes, look-and-feel - yes, the way it is coded - no. We all tend to copy someone else in one form or another throughout our lives - that is called learning by example. Can all the hack producers here honestly say that they did not get some assitance by readin books, looking at others code etc etc. I think not. So lets not be too quick to jump on the copyright bandwagon, especially where software is involved.

Bottom line is - do not claim someone elses work as yours outright if you are re-releasing or updating.

[KuraFire]

Originally Posted by speedway

While I see some of the arguments here hold water, not all do. Updating code and releasing it as your own is wrong, definately.

Rewriting and using some of the same coding techniques is unavoidable, there are only so many ways to skin a cat. There is no way that anyone can lay claim to an if-else statement, a SQL statement or much else in the coding department. Complete packages - yes, look-and-feel - yes, the way it is coded - no. We all tend to copy someone else in one form or another throughout our lives - that is called learning by example. Can all the hack producers here honestly say that they did not get some assitance by readin books, looking at others code etc etc. I think not. So lets not be too quick to jump on the copyright bandwagon, especially where software is involved.

Bottom line is - do not claim someone elses work as yours outright if you are re-releasing or updating.

Well said.

To add to that: this is all open-source programming. PHP is a language where you should reuse and share and reuse and share, ad infinitum. You learn PHP best by mimicking other people's code. At first this will be writing the exact same things, and only later on, once you're experienced enough, writing the same thing in your own way.
I agree that in the first stage, one should not release a hack (be it port or unique, even). But in the later stages, a port is sometimes an inevitability, even if you did write it all by yourself. Like speedway said, and like I sortof already mentioned, there are only so many ways to skin a cat. Some things just can't be done original anymore, cos somewhere, somehow, they've already been done. No matter what.

And while Wayne is right about the copyright, there's no way he would want the entire vB-community to wait 70 years for this vB3 port
70 years is a complete impossibility on the Internet, as is solid copyright protection. Perhaps if you (and the original author) both live in the USA it's somewhat possible to make a case, but it becomes infinitely more difficult when one or more person lives outside the USA.

[Silverdawn222]

Originally Posted by amykhar

I take strong exception to what Miratos said. Somebody who cannot code has no business releasing a hack in the first place - especially not somebody else's work. If you don't have the talent or ability to do something, you certainly don't have the right to represent yourself as somebody who can based on the efforts of others.

Representation aside (for I agree that credit has to be given where credit is due), sometimes a certain hack should be neccesarily ported, especially if no one else is going to. And why shouldn't you share your porting troubles with the rest of the community? I agree with Miratos, it's elitist to a degree. We're not just dealing with the result, we're dealing with source code. PHP is a scripting language, and as someone already remarked, there are only so many ways to skin a cat. I agree that it's downright wrong if you don't give credit, but I find your viewpoint too extreme in that you're already imposing limits upon people who may be working quite hard with their limited knowledge to get their favourite hacks upgraded. It's a slap in the face to honest people trying to move with their updated product.

[filburt1]

People, despite the fact that you can reply to threads in here, this is not open for debate. You may not, [high]under any circumstances,[/high] port or copy a hack unless you have the author's explicit permission.

[Silverdawn222]

Judging from all the reactions, it's certainly worth a debate.

[Wayne Luke]

Originally Posted by KuraFire

Well said.

To add to that: this is all open-source programming. PHP is a language where you should reuse and share and reuse and share, ad infinitum. You learn PHP best by mimicking other people's code. At first this will be writing the exact same things, and only later on, once you're experienced enough, writing the same thing in your own way.

Open Source is a specific way of releasing software. Just because you can see the source code doesn't make it open source or exempt it from laws. It is visual source. If the person specifically says they are releasing their code as Open Source and it doesn't include anything of vBulletin's original code it would be open source. If it included 1 line of vBulletin's original code or modified vBulletin's original code, it would be breaking the vBulletin license and be illegal distribution. vBulletin itself it not Open Source in any sense of the definition as it is applied to software.

You could disagree with this as much as you want but this is the law. Don't like it, write to your government representatives and have it changed. This utter disrespect shown by people for other's work is the exact reason I stopped releasing hacks here 2 years ago. I do have some nice ideas for new addons but they probably won't be released here either because of this thread and the continued disrespect shown for people and their work.

[KuraFire]

Originally Posted by filburt1

People, despite the fact that you can reply to threads in here, this is not open for debate. You may not, [high]under any circumstances,[/high] port or copy a hack unless you have the author's explicit permission.

so vb.org is going to be even more of a dictatorship that doesn't listen much for real to its members than it already is?

whatever, not my problem...

[Silverdawn222]

but they probably won't be released here either because of this thread and the continued disrespect shown for people and their work.

That was way out of line, and terribly inaccurate. No one here is disrespectful, and they have valuable points to make.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by amykhar

I take strong exception to what Miratos said. Somebody who cannot code has no business releasing a hack in the first place - especially not somebody else's work. If you don't have the talent or ability to do something, you certainly don't have the right to represent yourself as somebody who can based on the efforts of others.

Well, you can take exception to it, but that is not what I said. Perhaps I did not make my 2 seperate points clear to you.

I agree with you that someone who can not code should not be releasing a hack.

I would never advocate someone who can't code taking someone elses work and releasing it as their own.

[KuraFire]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

Open Source is a specific way of releasing software. Just because you can see the source code doesn't make it open source or exempt it from laws. It is visual source. If the person specifically says they are releasing their code as Open Source and it doesn't include anything of vBulletin's original code it would be open source. If it included 1 line of vBulletin's original code or modified vBulletin's original code, it would be breaking the vBulletin license and be illegal distribution. vBulletin itself it not Open Source in any sense of the definition as it is applied to software.

You could disagree with this as much as you want but this is the law. Don't like it, write to your government representatives and have it changed. This utter disrespect shown by people for other's work is the exact reason I stopped releasing hacks here 2 years ago. I do have some nice ideas for new addons but they probably won't be released here either because of this thread and the continued disrespect shown for people and their work.

I resent the implications that I don't show respect to people and their work. If those implications were not intentional, then forget I said anything

However, what you're basically saying is that all of the Hacks at vb.org are illegal. So by that definition I fail to see the whole point of this discussion, as then we're all commiting crimes here just by making hacks in the first place.

I generally prefer the Common Sense approach rather than the "It is the law"-approach. Many laws are completely retarded (across all countries) and at times they are really better broken than followed. Not saying that that applies exactly to copyright laws, mind you, but if the situation is in fact so that all hackmakers are criminals by law due to the fact that we've modified vB code and released the work as our own, then it definitely applies.