[TOWN HALL] Supporting the entire Member Base.

[joeychgo]

I own 6 vBulletin licenses, and will have 2 more shortly. I am an administrator on 2 additional vBulletin forums.

One of the reasons I purchased vBulletin in the first place was because of this site and the thousands of hacks available here.

I'm not a coder. So my personal feeling is that I dont care about having access to a 'Coders Forum'. However, if I choose to learn about coding, I shouldnt be forbidden from entering that forum. I paid my license fees and should be able to access that forum.

A bigger issue, IMO, is what feels like a Coder / Non Coder division here. It feels as though since I am not a coder, I am not considered to be important enough to listen to, or be cared about. Some people have indicated that this place is made by the coders. Lets keep something else in mind. There are many more non coders - and they pay the bills at Jelsoft, which is why this site is here. This site is for the benefit of the vBulletin license holder, not a place for coders to get together and hang with their buddies.

Tempers have flared here for some time. Obviously there has been quite a bit in inter-staff tensions as well, since the staf has changed over and over lately. I have seenthis exact problem in other forums before. I'm sorry to say that every time I have seen it, the forum died not long after, not being able to recover from the strife.

I dont see that happening here. Most members dont really care about the political goings on. They care about a resource for their forum. SO let me turn to that subject.

Better Organization of Hacks:

First, I believe we need a better way to organize the hacks. Be it a database or whatever. There needs to be better organization. Think about it from the standpoint of a newbie forum owner. He doesnt know the difference a plugin or a template modification. Those terms are meaningless to him.

The way things were organized Pre-3.5 were a bit better. The forums were self explanatory. The hacks were organized in a more related manner. Hacks that involved altering the Member Profile were mostly in the same palce. So if I wanted to jazz up my profiles, I could go there to see what was available.

That was a better system, IMO. And again, it shows that coders setup the forums, not thinking much about the non coder.

An improvement Idea:

I would like to see tutorials about HOW to write a hack. Why not HELP guys like me learn how to write hacks if we want to learn? Maybe then we could contribute as well. How about a section of forums for non coders to go and learn how to code. Have helpful mods that will hand hold new coders while they learn.


Listing Paid Hacks

This site is a resource for vBulletin forum owners. So, I think there should be a directory. It should have a set of criteria to gain a link, and should have a disclaimer that the sites are not associated with Jelsoft and are provided as a courtesy.

It also shouldnt be limited to paid hacks. ***URL Removed*** is a site that is a great resource for vBulletin owners. So is ***URL Removed*** (at least I would like to think so since I own that site ). These kind of sites should be listed also. There are skin designers out there that should be listed in such a directory.

The idea being, a directory of outside resources for vBulletin forum owners.


vB.org Staffing

Personally, I dont care if blimpie the clown runs the place. But, let me express my opinion as an experienced forum owner, and business manager. Please understand, there is no offense intended toward anyone.

The monkeys are running the zoo.

And every time I see monkeys at the zoo they are busy throwing feces around.

Whats happening here, isnt all that different.

Forums such as this CAN NOT be run by committee sucessfully.

Marco is the new "Head Administrator" (no jokes, please) Good move Jelsoft. I dont mean about choosing Marco, I dont know him and have no opinion of him. But appointing someone who is in charge is important.

Now, Marco - (or whoever is the Head administrator next month) you need to take command of the staff first. They need to know what you expect them to do. Start with the staff, and that attitude will filter down to everyone else.

Moderators, Marco is the Boss this month. Dont argue with him. Offer your suggestions and then support the decisions he makes. Dont overstep. And remember, ever member here is ultimately one thing. A PAYING CUSTOMER. Treat them as such.



Ok, thats my .02.

[soniceffect]

I enjoy vbulletin.org and despite the numerus arguements people have on here, I`ve always found it to be a usefull and friendly site for the most part.

The hack layout at the moment is great in theory, however in practice is quite difficult to navigate through. I personally found the forum option from the 3.0 hacks a lot easier to go through. The database could still be run even if the forums were layed out in this way. I do think a great addition to this however would be a field for the coder to enter keywords that he/she feels fit for the hack that he/she is putting up download, and also the option to add a hack to more than one of the current catagorys

[Serial Killer]

Errr...I actually quite like it here.

[MThornback]

Aside from whats been mentioned...(most of which I agree could use a tweak here or there to say the least):

my biggest suggestion is that along the same lines as installs....coders could be rated on things like receptiveness to taking custom requests etc....

Another thing might be to change the layout of the search page and allow for more advanced searches to help accomodate the people looking for specific things....i'm probably putting my foot in my mouth...but I can't see it hurting....

General comment and vote of confidence:

....Supporting the Member base to me means pleasing the most possible people....some of the loudest voices here do a lot of bashing...some of their points ARE valid, I disagree with how they go about it....but by and large I hope the staff realizes they don't speak for everyone.

Personally, i'm quite happy to be part of this site as it is now, and willing to go along with the staff on most things....and i'm looking forward to the improvements that voulenteers can make. My site is run entirely by voulenteers too....so I can empathise when people want everything at their fingertips right away.

[dartho]

One simple suggestion - change the search function to only search through the first post of each thread - this would make looking for hacks much easier and filter out a lot of the crud.

[SaN-DeeP]

A hack database and a better forum design *not the default design.

[Borgs8472]

Make the coders forum entirely public, allow coders to abuse people who ask newbie questions in there who are not coders.

That's what you call a self-reguating system

[Brad]

The underlying problems of this site (and the vBulletin community as a whole) are not going to go away because you add a new feature or make changes in the way the staff conduct themselves in public. The problem goes much deeper than this and anything you do a long these lines may put in a dent in the problem, but it will not solve it.

I would like to point out three things, and while it won't cover everything (I honestly don't have the time) and I can't say everything I want (regardless of what some people say I'm not one to leak information).

1) Decide who this site is for, and serve them.

This site is a mess, for one reason and one reason alone: it can't figure out if it wants to be a site for programers, or if it wants to be a site for distributing vBulletin add-ons....so it trys to be both. This is why you have questions going un-answered on all fronts, because the "why does x not work in my php script?" question will get buried by the "How do I install this?" questions which in turn get buried by the "Can vBulletin do x?" questions which in turn get buried by the "How should I write this SQL?" questions...see where I'm going?

You have programmers who understand the underlying code and users that have no intention of learning how to understand that code attempting to share the same space. True you have separate forums for some of these questions, but that can only go so far and is a stop-gag approach to this problem.

If Jelsoft would set up some type of "developer zone" on this domain, or a new domain I would gladly pay extra to access it. This new area would not be for the customers that have problems installing modifications. It would be for people that want to develop applications that work with vBulletin, that want to understand the code, that want to discuss these matters with other people without having to deal with "newbie" questions (note: the word newbie was used for lack of a better word, if that offends you then get over yourself). I would like to see better documentation of the code behind vBulletin (so far we have little, the api docs leave much to be desired).

It would be nice to get more information about up-coming versions before they go into public beta, this way I can already be working on updating my modifications for the new version long before the public gets their hands on it. A 'private developer beta' program would also allow us to give Jelsoft feedback before the code is more of less 'locked' for beta/RC/gold releases. Who knows we might already have had things like plug-in execution order in 3.5 if such a thing was in place at that time, instead of waiting around for 3.6 to be deemed stable (and waiting on users to adopt it wildly).
I understand Jelsoft doesn't want anyone leaking information about new releases to ipb, or whoever...but that is all a little paranoia in my mind. So what if ipb finds out about something in a new version a few weeks before the general public because someone leaked that information? Do you honestly belive they would have time to "rip" that idea and package it up before Jelsoft gets what they've already been working on out the door? Assuming ipb does, will it be better than the code Jelsoft has been working on for weeks (months maybe?), the answer is probably not.

The pay-off here out weighs all the reasons to be paranoid about it in my mind! You've shown that you want to support developers that use your application (the plug-in system alone is enough to show that). You've made it possible for us to develop things that are more or less a 'no brainier' to install. It's now time to take this a step further and reach out to the people that program modifications, and create custom styles for vBulletin. There are a lot of people making a lot of money off your user base, and there is no doubt in my mind that they would be willing to pay just a bit more every year to get access to the type of resource I am speaking of.

I know a lot of people might be thinking "But I don't sell my work! What about people like me?" well I would hope such a thing would not cost an arm and a leg, else no one would use it. Currently I don't sell anything I have coded, but I'm more than willing to update my licenses to a "developer license" if such a resource was available. The important thing to remember is if people are paying to access this resource, it would mean jelsoft would have some extra income to spend on paying people to run this resource. People will work harder if they are getting paid, no question about that. Put some employees in charge of this developer zone and it will run smoother than it ever would as a volunteer run site. The problem is people tend to only work as hard as they have to, and if they are getting paid nothing they are likely to move on to something that brings them some form of income.

So what of vBulletin.org? I say replace it with what it's becoming: A site for hosting free modifications, linking to commercial modifications, and a support forum for helping people install/run modifications.

This will cut the fat for both sides. The people that simply want to download modifications will stay at vBulletin.org and won't have to shift through pages and pages of coding discussion. The people that know how to program will embrace the developer zone, and the ones willing to learn will find their way to it in time I'm sure (it would help to have some links at vB.com to it, no doubt). The developer zone will allow programmers to discuss things without to much noise from the regular customers, and that can only mean better things for the community as a whole.

As an example: When vBulletintemplates.com was still alive we did not have as many users at vBulletin.org, but the discussions we had about working with the templates, style manager, and graphics were far more meaningful and useful. vBt was merged into this domain so the customers didn't have to run back and forth to download modifications (they honestly don't care if it's a template mod or a hack). What happened to the good discussions about working with the style manager? They stopped after the merge for the most part because they got buried by php/sql/how do I threads. In short it was a move that was good for the regular customers, because they got their fix at one site instead of two, but as far as designers go it really just left them out in the cold.

That is just one example of a 'fix' causing another problem, and that's the cycle you will continue to have it you attempt to appeal to everyone with one domain.

2) Don't depend on the forums

Once you figure out what you're going to be, develop a site for that focus. The front page here should not be a portal that links endlessly to threads in the forum, just like the 'hack database' should not be a portal that links endlessly to threads in the forums. I attempted to fix this many times when I was on the staff here, but it always got put off for pressing issues, and anything that did get approved was always stuck in dev hell. You have a team of programmers/designers now, so I hope you use them wisely instead of allowing them to get caught up in moderating the forums.

The front page should have a few things....

There should be an FAQ linked that deals with all the common problems/questions one has when it comes to working with vBulletin. I think you'll find there are far less "How do I?" questions when you have such a resource, and even if they do get posted (they will) you have something you can link to that remains in a static location. I don't have to go searching for that thread that answers x question that was posted months ago, I click the link to the faq, find the item in question, and can post the link right off.

Good discussions (not just the latest) should be linked on the front page. Look at sitepoint's forum index if you want to see an example of that working in action. It's great to go there and find a few threads that are 'recommended reading' in the eyes of their staff. It makes the OP feel good, it gets more people involved (better answers), and it gets far more people reading important information.

Get a team of people together to write articles about vBulletin and have them linked on the front page (again articles should be hosted outside of the forums). This way you can cover more 'exotic' problems that won't be possible to include in a basic FAQ. Conduct interviews with modification authors, I'm sure they would love to share their ideas with us in these interviews, talk about things they have planned, and answer questions submitted by the community. Write reviews about commercial/non-commercial/open source software that integrates with/is built for vBulletin, I shouldn't have to search around the web or in the forums endless for that sort of stuff.

Set up a wiki so people can contribute solutions for common problems without having to post them in the forums. Once again that provides a static link, but it also gives anyone the ability to come in and improve the work others have already posted. I don't know about the rest of you but I fancy the idea of having the 'correct' solution right in front of me, and not buried under 60 posts in a 'how-to' thread.

I'm sure I could think up some other things, but I'm honestly bored with this already. Incase anyone is curious yes I tried to get everything listed above done when I was staff here, but every time there was some sort of problem that delayed and/or prevented it. Again maybe this new staff can pull it off, I'll willing to give them the chance.

3) Quit with the bullshit

This is aimed at everyone: There are too many egos here and people throwing around their weight. That has to stop because it makes this place seem not worth visiting. I can't belive some of the things I read when I come here, or visit other vBulletin websites (I'm not a member at most of them because they thrive on bashing this place, or the staff, or the clueless newbies, or the programmers with a god complex). My advice to all the people that like to stir the shit: I hope you enjoy the smell, and the backlash that you'll get from the people that don't.

People moan about how everyone is ruining this place and yell about things that don't effect them then turn around and wonder why no one is answering their questions! They don't answer them because you've run them off! I can't even keep count of the number of people that have left this place because certain people (or a group of people) had a grand olde time toying with someone's emotions until they said "I've have enough of this, it ain't worth it anymore, think I'll find some place with less static".

It's madness I tell you, madness. Why do you guys have such a big problem discussing things without it turning into a flame war? Why do you guys have to be so abusive to your peers? Why can't you bring up valid points and leave it at that? Why do you have to defend your point like it's a child stranded in a battlefield? Why can't you give someone the benefit of the doubt from time to time? Why can't you accept that you won't always get your way? Why can't you listen to the advice your parents gave you?: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. I'm honestly starting to question if some of you people had good parents or parents at all....yes I took it there, I said it, it had to be said.

Maybe they were good parents, maybe you guys just never learned to respect them. Me, I don't have a problem with showing respect to other people (I always do unless they decide not to show it to me in return). You know why I don't have that problem? When I was a kid my dad would whoop my ass with a big leather belt when I got out of line, or if he couldn't find the belt he went outside and cut a nice green switch off a tree (hurts twice as much, lemme tell you, I was whiped so hard sometimes it left scars). It was great punishment, I plan on using it on my own kids if the day ever comes. I never had time out, I didn't get sent to my room, I was punished.

I learned at an early age that there were consequences as a result of my actions, so I learned get things right the first time! Else I may end up getting an ass whooping, doing extra work for that day (or week, or month..and I lived on a farm in the south. Plenty of nasty, real hot and/or freezing cold, and hard work to be done) and losing most of the 'fun' things I had for that time (as a kid that would mean all my gaming consoles, my PCs, my RC cars, bb guns, 4 wheeler, fishing poles, and slot car track). My dad ran a strict house, but we only had a few rules: Don't lie, Don't cheat, Don't Steal, Always show respect to everyone and everything at all times.

The point I'm trying to make is the point I've been trying to make for months now: Act like adults for once! You guys aren't kids (for the most part), you guys are administrators of your own forum for crying out loud! Act like it for once! There is no reason why this staff should have to do the amount of baby sitting it does here daily, no reason.


- In closing: I've said everything that I care to say, at least for the moment. I look forward to seeing this post end up on every "we hate vBulletin.org" site on the net. I look forward to hearing about how a former admin just "flamed" the general user base. I look forward to hearing about how I'm a bad, lazy, un-educated idiot, and how you're happy I left when I did. But no matter what they say they can't take away this: I always told the truth, I always gave it my all, I always showed respect to anyone that was willing to do the same for me, I always stuck with it through the good times and the bad, I always accepted the blame even if it was not directly my fault, and I always had the balls to speak my mind even if it wasn't the popular opinion.

Happy coding..

[edited for spelling]

[smacklan]

I would like to see this site become mostly a site for free modifications, links to commercial modifications and a support forum for users of modifications...

I am frustrated at how vB has financially enjoyed the fruits of the labors of many around here while letting this site get in this condition. It's troubling that they can remain at arms length, aloof and yet benefit so from the cottage industry of coders and designers (whether they charge for their efforts or not). It's time for vBulletin to step up, change their corporate "mindset" about this site and utilize it to it's full potential...they, along with their customers, will benefit greater than they can imagine!

Cheers!

[tnguy3n]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but can it be set that ex-coders can still access to their threads (hack releases) to continue provide support/update? My license is about to expire.