for those who have left

[EasyTarget]

so coders want a place to talk among themselves.. big freaking deal! There's nothing in there that I'm 'entitled' to as a paying jelsoft customer. It was disclosed at vb.com exactly what I got with my purchase and I got it.

tgreer, who cares about the reason they want the forum? Maybe they want it to discuss the sunsets, maybe its to share recipes, maybe its to chat on this forum with other coders in a place where they won't be hounded by us members?

And please noppid, go find the 10 members for everyone 1 that think coders shouldn't have a private forum, yet even more that feel their human rights are being violated because of it.

[noppid]

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

so coders want a place to talk among themselves.. big freaking deal! There's nothing in there that I'm 'entitled' to as a paying jelsoft customer. It was disclosed at vb.com exactly what I got with my purchase and I got it.

tgreer, who cares about the reason they want the forum? Maybe they want it to discuss the sunsets, maybe its to share recipes, maybe its to chat on this forum with other coders in a place where they won't be hounded by us members?

And please noppid, go find the 10 members for everyone 1 that think coders shouldn't have a private forum, yet even more that feel their human rights are being violated because of it.

I'm now ignoring you. You have nothing but sef indulgent musings to post. Exactly the problem here.

Based on the need for hacks, I bet I can find more then 10. But my time is better spent arguing for equal access of all license holders rather then one or ten. I'm in this for all or nothing. I do not support any kind of different treatment of any license holder.

[EasyTarget]

you're ignoring me for giving valid responses to your comments without ever personally attacking you? hmm.. ok?

Based on the need for hacks, as you mentioned, you will find members willing to give coders more benefits, not less. If someone wants to help the community then the access and benefits that are allotted to coders will only serve to give them more incentive to do so.

Originally Posted by noppid

For everyone of you that "don't care", there are ten up and coming programmers that DO CARE and do want to know.

Originally Posted by noppid

my time is better spent arguing for equal access of all license holders rather then one or ten.

[tgreer]

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

so coders want a place to talk among themselves.. big freaking deal! There's nothing in there that I'm 'entitled' to as a paying jelsoft customer. It was disclosed at vb.com exactly what I got with my purchase and I got it.

tgreer, who cares about the reason they want the forum? Maybe they want it to discuss the sunsets, maybe its to share recipes, maybe its to chat on this forum with other coders in a place where they won't be hounded by us members?

When you say "coders" and "they" in your post, please define whom you mean? Likewise, with "members"? What's the differentiation? I'm a member. I'm a coder. This is the site to discuss vBulletin customization and development, is it not? That's why I'm a member. That's precisely the kind of discussion which is being intentionally hobbled.

This site has been co-opted; it isn't a "vBulletin Customization discussion community". It's a club. You join the club by releasing hacks, which has become synonymous with "contributing to the community". You're either part of the club, or you're a "user", which has become synonymous with "newbie". Your role as a user/member is to download hacks and click the almighty "install" button. Be nice. Don't irritate the coders. You also have the staff, whose role is to... ??

What about people who 1) don't necessarily need or want someone else's hack? 2) because they are experienced developers and 3) want to learn some of the more intricate aspects of the vBulletin API and/or source code? by 4) having intelligent conversations with like-minded vBulletin users?

That is the group disenfranchised by the current setup.

[EasyTarget]

Originally Posted by tgreer

It's a club. You join the club by releasing hacks, which has become synonymous with "contributing to the community". You're either part of the club, or you're a "user", which has become synonymous with "newbie". Your role as a user/member is to download hacks and click the almighty "install" button. Be nice. Don't irritate the coders.

You gain access to a private forum for those who have released modifications. I don't recall the be nice and don't irritate the coders being a part of the equation. Coders have no power over people who treat them with disrespect. Just look in almost any release thread and there's plenty of evidence to this.

What about people who 1) don't necessarily need or want someone else's hack? 2) because they are experienced developers and 3) want to learn some of the more intricate aspects of the vBulletin API and/or source code? by 4) having intelligent conversations with like-minded vBulletin users?

vb forums for those who don't need/want someone elses hack, forums for experienced developers, forums for those who want to learn more, forums for having intelligent conversations with like-minded vbulletin users (which everyone has access to):
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=101
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=107
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=102
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=112
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=26
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=24
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=111
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=184
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=92

What you want is already provided for.. redundantly. The forum for those who have released modifications should remain open to only those people who have released modifications.

[Gio~Logist]

I agree with tgreer on a lot of things he's said. I also still stick with my last post.

Originally Posted by gio~logist

I'm sorry, i just find it a waste of time to argue about making the coder's forum public. Coders sometimes would like to discuss things among coders. Take away that forum, people will just pm each other. Either way, some things are best discussed amongst you would like to discuss them with. Nothing you guys say or do can obligate a member to post things to the public.

[tgreer]

"I can't code and I have no desire to have access to the coders forum."

That's obvious, if you think those links you posted are to "coding discussions". I don't mean that disrepectfully - I don't think more or less of you because of coding ability or lack thereof, I'm just saying, those aren't the kinds of discussions under question here.

Since you can't code and don't care about the issues around the private coders' discussion forum, why are you arguing with me about it? I do have access to it, and I can tell you that nothing there needs to be eyes-only to those who've released hacks. They are, for the most part, development discussions, the kind that vbulletin.com sends people here to see/have. Only, they are hidden, so... what's the point?

I have to join noppid in ignoring you, I guess: the point of this thread, before it was hijacked, was "what changes are necessary to regain those who've left", to which I added "or those who never really participated".

I pinpointed two areas: 1) get a professional staff and 2) open up the coding discussions. Those really haven't been addressed, and now the thread is really just pointlessly bouncing back and forth (mea culpa). If you don't agree with my ideas, fine. If you think things are fine, ok. My goal is not to persuade you; I had hoped the administration would address the issues, and they haven't, so I posted at vbulletin.com and will patiently await the outcome.

[EasyTarget]

hmm.. php coding forum, mysql forum, html questions, server configuration, how do I questions forum, quick tips and customizations, custimization forums for templates, phrases, graphics and styles, general modification discussion forum, vbulletin programming and styles and graphics articles, programming discussions and styles and graphics discussions. Exactly which of these public forums don't fulfill your request?

Even if they're discussing how to be a better dad, how to earn more money or how to code in their private forum (all things which I could benefit from), that's their choice. Its a forum for them and they can use it how they want.

And this thread, as you mentioned, was for those coders who have left.. you're conjecturing that they left because the staff gave them a private forum? And you're trying to label the forum for the coders as a general coding discussions forum, which it is not, and which I showed you there are many, many general coding discussion forums which exist already.

I never disagreed about your staff comments, though I think there are other ways to improve it without hiring 'professional moderators'. As you can see the staff have already listened to your comments somewhat and have stopped disrupting the thread.

[Lottis]

Originally Posted by tgreer

"I can't code and I have no desire to have access to the coders forum."

I cant code, but i really want to learn. Thats why i am happy that v.org has provided lessons fore those who are interested. ( peterksa)-
I have just not have the time to join them yet.
So i really want to learn and gonne do it one day.
Untill then, i mean that i have no bisniss having acsess. I will mostly do more harm than good.

[noppid]

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

hmm.. php coding forum, mysql forum, html questions, server configuration, how do I questions forum, quick tips and customizations, custimization forums for templates, phrases, graphics and styles, general modification discussion forum, vbulletin programming and styles and graphics articles, programming discussions and styles and graphics discussions. Exactly which of these public forums don't fulfill your request?

Even if they're discussing how to be a better dad, how to earn more money or how to code in their private forum (all things which I could benefit from), that's their choice. Its a forum for them and they can use it how they want.

And this thread, as you mentioned, was for those coders who have left.. you're conjecturing that they left because the staff gave them a private forum? And you're trying to label the forum for the coders as a general coding discussions forum, which it is not, and which I showed you there are many, many general coding discussion forums which exist already.

I never disagreed about your staff comments, though I think there are other ways to improve it without hiring 'professional moderators'. As you can see the staff have already listened to your comments somewhat and have stopped disrupting the thread.

You can blow smoke all you want. If those forums are good enough for your arguement, they are also good enough to argue against it.

If all those forums satisfy our needs, there is no reason for a private forum.

Originally Posted by Lottis

I cant code, but i really want to learn. Thats why i am happy that v.org has provided lessons fore those who are interested. ( peterksa)-
I have just not have the time to join them yet.
So i really want to learn and gonne do it one day.
Untill then, i mean that i have no bisniss having acsess. I will mostly do more harm than good.

Why would you put yourself down like that? How could your reading something cause trouble?

That's just rediculous that this 1337 crowd now has people thinking they are not good enough. It's absurd!