I think I've had enough

[Zachery]

I would like to take a moment and sit down and address the facts that people seem to think I feel that everyone and anyone is expendable. This is not what I mean when people come and people go. I am referring to the natural order of life and death. People are born and people die, there is nothing that we can currently do to prevent this from happening. While it is sad when someone dies, dwelling on the issue does not let us move onto the future. Sure, there are good people who leave communities or pass on in real life. However to say that no one could ever do as good as a job as them is not true. When a coder leaves vBulletin.org it is a sad occasion, but it is not the end of life as we know it and we still strive on. Over the years vBulletin.org has lost coders in a number of ways, be it through death, lack of want to keep participating, or real life, but the community did not stop growing, it keep growing. Why? Because that’s what happens in life, new things come and change the way we think and old things pass on. I do not think any life or person at this site is expendable, but I understand the fact that one day they will not be with us any longer and there is not much I can do about it in some respects. With this in mind it is why I say one person, or a small group of people are not the specific life blood of the site, the users who will be here tomorrow, the next day, and the new users who will join us are.

I’d like to make a few other points for anyone who may have missed a post I made. I am _not_ a paid staff member here in any respect, but I am part of the Jelsoft staff as per my specific duties to vBulletin.com in terms of support.

Now, if I have offended you, again I am sorry as that was not my point. If you’d like to chat with me, either about things I said here, or just to get to know me better in general, feel free to send me a pm or talk to me in #vborg when I’m around.

[Floris]

Hello again everybody,

This thread took an interesting turn over night and I would like to say I have a few ideas and comments I'd like to share with the vBcom staff as well as with the vBorg staff in regards to 'how can we improve vborg'.

Before I discuss them even in public I will try to get a chat going this upcoming wednesday when the support staff from vBcom has a meeting planned. Unless they are otherwise occupied at least Colin, Zachery, Wayne and Steve will be there. This should indirectly also help as Zachery and Colin have insight on vBorg and could explain any questions I might have. Anyway, I will see what they think of my comments and ideas and request Wayne and Steve to open dialogue with the vBorg staff in a follow up meeting where the vBorg staff can up some proposals.

I am sure that in private people are discussing matters, and also in any potential meeting, hopefully people understand that the vBcom staff is not fully involved with the vBorg community and that we are redirecting users from vBcom who want to expand their forum software beyond the defaults which vBcom can't provide support for. And that the vBorg staff is here to manage the community to keep things running smoothly and that the vBorg staff is here on a volenteer basis and have come a long way in the last few years since Wayne got involved to help smaller the gap between vBorg/vBcom and their communities.

Please allow the staff from both sites to get up to date on the situation and discuss the matters at hand and come to solutions that is a compromise for everybody who wants to enjoy the vBorg community. These discussions and these potential solutions don't come over one night of ice, so don't expect that either.

What I personally recommend is to get vBcom staff involved to help discuss solutions and help make recommendations to the staff from vBcom that should make the final (big) decisions (like the business manager or CEO), if there are any to make. And I also personally recommend that perhaps a status update on these matters could be semi-scheduled in about X weeks to keep the vBorg community in the loop (but of course that is up to the vBorg staff).

For now, and to stay on topic: LiveWire, I have come to know you on vBorg through your comments, your actions on the site, your contributions and recently through the #vBorg chat channel on our vb chat network where you also have your private chat channel. It is a shame to find out that you have lost your motivation to continue on this web site and I wish you the best of luck with your other projects. And of course, as a vB customer you're always welcome on vBorg.

And to everybody else who shares LWs oppinion I thank you for your feedback and comments they help the vBorg staff and also the vBcom staff to get a better understanding how the community experiences the vBorg web site. I can tell you that we know that the vBorg staff is trying their best and tries to be there for everybody; and I think we also all know it is not easy to run a (big) community and that every community has their ups and downs.

However, I do read some comments here and there that are on the edge of breaking forum rules (hard to avoid sometimes in convs like these) but please rethink before posting because name calling or personally attacking someone doesn't add much to getting to a solution.

Anyhoo-summery
I hardly post on this site for my own reasons but I do read these type of threads and I usually choose not to reply. I said yesterday that I would contact some vBcom staff and a few have already read this thread and Marco has also addressed this to the vBcom staff and he will take it from there. This wednesday I will address this thread and others in our meeting and recommend to start a chat with the vBorg staff and I request the community to allow the staffs to have some time in getting things started and wait for a status update in X weeks (but that's up to the vBorg staff I think).

[Dean C]

Originally Posted by Chris M

Members already have a liason to the staff - amykhar

Chris

The only reason I know this is because I was staff here when she was given this honorary role. No-where has it been announced in public, and 99% of community members here don't know her role. She certainly doesn't advertise her role, and whilst I like Amy and her bluntness (and agree with her nine times out of ten), I don't think that her views on non-coders make her suited to bridging a gap between the staff and the members. If anything, it's doing the exact opposite, and alienating the community.

And on a more general note, how many more of these threads is it going to take to make the current staff here realise that it's not what you care or think that matters, it's the members here want that does

[Revan]

Originally Posted by Zachery

Over the years vBulletin.org has lost coders in a number of ways, be it through death, lack of want to keep participating, or real life, but the community did not stop growing, it keep growing.

See, since you think that all the people that download the hacks without giving anything back is the backbone of the community, you would be right.
If there was some form of a record of how many coders there were "back in the day" (before my time), matched up against now, I think you would find there would be less now. I don't call that growth. This site lives only because of people contributing code. You could have six billion people coming in here and asking questions, requesting mods or try to learn how to code their own for their own personal sites, but without those that actually releases mods, this community would die.
You seem to fail to realise this.

[Tony G]

The issues is not about giving coders moderating privileges. I think someone meantioned this once. The issue is not about giving coders money either. As soon as the thread starts to take a positive direction, it's gets thrown out of context. (not directed towards Erwin) I've posted my suggestions, and are about to post one last final suggestion and hope for the best.

It shouldn't be suprising that people might be coding for the status or the money. They want something in return. It's nice to have pure intentions but not everyone has them.

Support I think that 'most' coders/designers try to devote as much time to support as possible, I find it a matter of pride since it's something I've released. It does get tough when the members never return a thank you or show appreciation.

I understand that. I think the coder titles here were a start on trying to get coders and designers recognition for work released. Although, it looks like people aren't *completly* satisfied. But at least the staff did act on this issue. I think we're looking into alternative ways now.

[TeaTree]

Originally Posted by Erwin

I think people need to understand one thing - staff here at vB.org are ALL volunteers (with the exception of Wayne and Zachery who are both official Jelsoft employees). The rest of us, including Brad, Xenon and myself, are volunteers - we do not get paid. The turn-around and support at vB.com is better because the staff there are PAID staff - it's their job.

vB.org is my hobby - it's not my job - neither is it the job of any of the mods here who do this in their own time after their studies, or their day jobs.

Scott is right in saying that this site is big enough to have paid staff to run it like vB.com. More needs to be invested into this site - Marco and others who are coding the Hack Database all have their own lives to live - you cannot expect them to quit university and code the hack databse 24 hours a day for the benefit of people and not get paid for it. That makes sense right?

I would like the coders here not to take their frustrations out on the staff here - they are coders like you too, and they don't get paid for all they do in the background, so have a bit of understanding.

There are many things that are out of vB.org staff hands - we try our best, but things like a paid directory is something we have brought up with Jelsoft again and again and it's not up to us to make the final decision.

If you expect professional staff here at vB.org, then tell Jelsoft to hire professional people. Staff here are just enthusiasts of vB, just like you. We are no better, we are no worse.

Of course, all of us want to see this site improve, so let's remain constructive in this thread, and instead of looking at problems, let's look at possible solutions.

That is a brilliant point

[stinger2]

since this thread turned to constructive one....i feel happy...but can i ask every one NOT to call user's(customers)..as leechers.........it would be the first producet in the world where customers are called so...

[Revan]

I apologise if I offended someone with the usage of that term. I swear I didn't mean any offense. I merely found it a shorter term than putting "users that do not contribute to the community in way of hacks" in every other sentence

[hambil]

Originally Posted by Tony G

It shouldn't be suprising that people might be coding for the status or the money. They want something in return. It's nice to have pure intentions but not everyone has them.

The desire to eat is not a pure intention? Give me a break.

[stinger2]

Originally Posted by Revan

I apologise if I offended someone with the usage of that term. I swear I didn't mean any offense. I merely found it a shorter term than putting "users that do not contribute to the community in way of hacks" in every other sentence

thank you sir ......for this nice attitude.....
again contribution can also be giving feedback, reporting bugs, trying the hacks, giving suggestions for good hacks....

its one circle that should not break....

product+support+customers+feedback+coders====> new product and so on