Obama to close Guantanamo Bay

[Digital Jedi]

Originally Posted by Shelley_c

I love how you americans (I have nothing against you) time & time again try to take the morale ground from the comfort of your homes, and hold on to values your country hasn't met for well... let's say ever. It's all words. infact, most of the righteous crap spoken in here is from arms length, from a distance so to speak.

Here's a direct question. Would you have one of the terrorists or yet to be determined terrorists living next door to you? I think the answer to that question is no. Yet again, words and quoting text is simply a load of ole BS imo. While we are at it, why not reform the rapists and allocate them to your local friendly neighbourhood, yes? let's allocate them next to our schools (oh jeepers, we have). While we are at it, why not just round up children and thow in a pheadophile and lets talk and comment about it at arms length.

Would you have a reformed rapist living next door to you? Mingling amongst your children? Why not give them a chance huh. Personally, a bullet in the head is the cheaper solution. but I'm betting you wouldn't be post the american version of the ten commandments if that were the case.

It's not that I am against some of the policies, Some of them are just fairy tale agenda orientated crap to yet again pull you gullible lot in and thus quoting scriptures from days long past.

I dunno, when the time comes again (i won't go into that comment) but you'll have to blame yourselves yet again. I'm not a big fan of bush, but the best thing he did was to remove sadaam from power even if it didn't directly benefit you americans. As for obama, well, I'm quite excited to see how this little episode pans out for you lot and then blame yourselves yet again for voting him in power.

The logic your using is basically is, if my own worst instincts is to do something morally or legally wrong, then that should justify the moral and legal failings of everyone else. That's not how society works, nor can it function if we discard the better angles of our nature because it's hard. Cynicism breads nothing, but more cynicism. It's not constructive either.

Here's a direct answer. No, I don't want a terrorist living next door (though, likely that would be the safest place, as what terrorist blows up his own house? But I digress). That doesn't really have anything to do with Guantanamo Bay or the subject at hand. Did you think they where just going to close the prison down and release all the prisoners? The problem with Gitmo is that they are holding prisoners without trial and have used illegal interrogation techniques, with virtually nothing to show for it. Closing it down means the illegal tactics stop and we then start the process of putting these detainees on trial, find out who actually IS an enemy combatant and who isn't dangerous, and start using legal interrogation techniques that are proven to actually produce results.

Your second set of questions is baited, and doesn't have anything to do with topic either, but I'll answer them nevertheless. No, I don't want a rapist living next door, but then, I don't know if I already do. If he's reformed, it's not my responsibility or right to decide where he lives. It's my responsibility to not let my kids roam the neighborhood unsupervised to begin with, since I don't know what kind of people live on my street, and it would be irresponsible of me to do so, even if I knew for a fact no one on it had been convicted. Again, though, I'm not sure what that had to do with the topic.

What policies exactly are fairy tale agenda crap? Because I have yet to hear anyone be specific about what they don't think will work.

[Brandon Sheley]

wow, some real novels being posted here..lol
If i every get a free hour, I'll go through and read all the replies

[The Geek]

Originally Posted by Shelley_c

I love how you americans (I have nothing against you) time & time again try to take the morale ground from the comfort of your homes, and hold on to values your country hasn't met for well... let's say ever. It's all words. infact, most of the righteous crap spoken in here is from arms length, from a distance so to speak.

Here's a direct question. Would you have one of the terrorists or yet to be determined terrorists living next door to you? I think the answer to that question is no.

They are a terrorist according to whom? THere has been no trial because there isnt any evidence. Therefore I suppose I would rather have someone not convicted of a crime living next door to me rather than a racist who assumes people must be terrorists because of some loosley contrived suspicion.

Personally, I love my homelands optomism. Sure beats a lot of the miserable, depressed and repressed big brother attitudes of my adopted homeland. Personally, I like the ideal that one whould be proven guilty by a jury of their peers rather than locked up because of the colour of your skin or where you are from.

But then again, thats just me

[smacklan]

Originally Posted by The Geek

They are a terrorist according to whom?

What? Are you serious? I admire you Sam, but you are way off on this one here. Just who the heck do you think Khalid Sheik Mohammad is? How many of these "non-terrorists" that have been released went right back to killing Americans...several. I'm sorry, but applying the rule of law to these animals will do nothing but get more people killed because they don't recognize these rules themselves, are seen as a sign of weakness to them and will use them against us...hello! I hope we have extracted every bit of info we possibly could from these a$$hats in whatever means necessary and move forward with giving them their martyrdom wishes.

[Digital Jedi]

Originally Posted by smacklan

What? Are you serious? I admire you Sam, but you are way off on this one here. Just who the heck do you think Khalid Sheik Mohammad is? How many of these "non-terrorists" that have been released went right back to killing Americans...several. I'm sorry, but applying the rule of law to these animals will do nothing but get more people killed because they don't recognize these rules themselves, are seen as a sign of weakness to them and will use them against us...hello! I hope we have extracted every bit of info we possibly could from these a$$hats in whatever means necessary and move forward with giving them their martyrdom wishes.

You don't discard your own rule of ethics, just because the enemy doesn't share them. If they already shared your values, then they wouldn't be the enemy, now would they? Unless your advocating "if you can't be 'em, join 'em."

The problem with "by any means necessary" approach to interrogation, is that people seem to think that means immediately breaking out the dogs and the rubber hoses. Torture doesn't work, never has. Didn't work on Americans during WWII and doesn't work on people now. The most effective means of extracting information, which has also been proven even during this last administration, was through repoir building. All torture did was torture, and not much else. Well, that's not true. It did do something else. When word got out where we were doing to prisoners, it got the enemy a whole batch of new recruits. Practical.

What's the big problem anyway? You want to hold them indefinitely, even if, in the bloody chaos and confusion that is combat, they picked up some some schmo in the wrong place at the wrong time? Keep them prisoners just in case, and don't bother with trials or investigations, just in case? And what happens when that ideology spreads into the criminal justice system?

[The Geek]

Originally Posted by smacklan

What? Are you serious? I admire you Sam, but you are way off on this one here. Just who the heck do you think Khalid Sheik Mohammad is?

I am by no means saying that they are angels, nor am I saying they are devils. My point is that we believe in and support due process because it is the right thing to do. The day we start imprisoning people without fair trial is the day we fore go the very principals that the country was founded on.

If they are terrorists, put them in front of a jury and convict them. Then throw them in prison and chuck the key. I'm all for that.

[Shelley_c]

Originally Posted by The Geek

I am by no means saying that they are angels, nor am I saying they are devils. My point is that we believe in and support due process because it is the right thing to do. The day we start imprisoning people without fair trial is the day we fore go the very principals that the country was founded on.

If they are terrorists, put them in front of a jury and convict them. Then throw them in prison and chuck the key. I'm all for that.

As simple as that? Put them infront of a jury and this enforces the minds of the public. What are we really talking about here. Enforcing laws with kid gloves to make us feel better about our selves. An eye for eye. Do you think for a moment they would show you that luxury? You would be live on some broken down tv station with a bag over your head Waiting execution whilst your loved ones are at home.

Oh yes, But we have our principles, our beliefs. This is the point I'm trying to make. Until it happens to one of your loved ones you have that luxury in standing by your principles. I wonder if the families of the victims think this way of the terrorist attacks.

Either way, Release or detained they live in luxury, probably better living conditions than most americans. That has to be a kick in the teeth in itself.

[The Geek]

Isn't that what is supposed to make us better than 'them'?

Look, I get as emotionally upset and angry when I even see pictures of the twin towers as I am sure anybody in their right mind does. However the second that we cast aside the very principals which makes us such a great country is the second we become just as bad. Our fundamental freedoms and liberties should not to be cast aside when the goin gets tough.

If my family were killed by a gang I would want every one of their members taken out. So what do I do? Do I wait for due process or do I go all Charles Bronson and start picking them all off one by one regardless of if I am right or wrong (because they must ALL be in on it)? Do I then invade LA (because don't all gangs come from LA?). While I'm at it, Ill go invade Sacramento because its close and they must have relatives there (along with WoMD). People in Sacramento should be free of gangs and I will be the one to do it! Should I start capturing and chaining up all gang members (suspected and known) I come across (we all know if they are in a gang or look like they might be in a gang that they must be up to no good)? If they look like they are in a gang or might be in a gang, or maybe once have been in a gang, I'll lock them in my basement, never to see the light of day. That way we can all be free of the fear of gangs forever more (as long as I don't piss off any potential gang members along the way... that might push them over the edge to come after me).

Emotionally, you bet your ass I would want my revenge. Screw due process. However, thank god we don't live in a country that doesn't allow its people to do something like that (revenge or vengeance). The government shouldn't participate in it either.

Its idealistic to take the high road just as it is idealistic to scream 'eye for an eye'. But those are the ideals our country was built upon and I know which ideal I would rather be governed under.

[smacklan]

30 years or more we have been turning a blind eye to radical Islam thinking we can "negotiate", thinking we can "bring them into the civilized rule of law", thinking "it's probably our fault they hate us so" and blah, blah, blah. Where has it gotten us? I'll tell you where. Beruit in all of the 1980's, Lockerbie, Rijhad, WTC attack #1, USS Cole, Kenya embassy bombings, 9-11, UK tunnel bombings, Spain tunnel bombings, Mumbai...and the next is just around the corner. Iran will be permitted to obtain nuclear weapons and that will be the beginning of the end. Israel will have to strike because if they don't they will be a certain target as have they been since the day after they declared their independence in 1948. It really is sad to see the world lose the guts to say, evil is evil and must be destroyed because the risks we face from it totally eclipse any temporary discomfort we might face with putting our "ideals" aside while we deal with it.

[GSeybold]

Well he did it. He issued an executive order today. Humm... the outcome remains to be seen. I'm not an Obama supporter, Democrat or a Republican but for some strange reason, and I'm really not sure why, I have a very uneasy unsafe feeling. It's scary for my country and my safety to be in the hands of someone so inexperienced, similar to JFK and the Cuba missile crisis which by the way, was the closest we've ever come to a Nuclear attack. Well at least as far as the public knows about.

Let's hope closing Guat Bay was the right choice.

Gabby