I think I've had enough

[hambil]

Originally Posted by Princeton

NOTE: This "farewell thread" should go into the LOUNGE fourm -- not the SITE FEEDBACK forum. Hence, I moving the thread.

Sorry, but that was lame. We're all admins here, and we're not stupid.

[The Geek]

I could have sworn this was a discussion about the site - however I guess it looks better being in the lounge - plus it will get buried faster!

I should have known that celebrating coders here was a prediction that would never happen. Now I've got confirmation from one of the ol boys club that its so

Oddly, Im not really seeing many site users disagreeing with sentiments expressed here - well, other than the staff of course

Geez, can't you guys just admint that things could be a little cooler for those that contribute to the community and agree that you'll look into any opportunity to improve the situation if possible? Stop being so 'ol boys club'ish and see if you guys can be a force of positive change instead of working so hard to say that there is nothing that needs to be changed

BTW: according to Pauls figures up there, less than 4% of the members of this site have ever released anything.

[Zachery]

Originally Posted by Paul M

Really ? - how long do you think the site would last if the "few users who do happen to code hacks" stopped and left ?

According to the modifications page there are ;

I would guess that less than 75% of them are still active (actually it's probably worse than that). You are right that no one coder should be considered more important, but in reality some do play a much more active role than others, and alienating them is not going to do you any good - and remember, as a group they are very important - no coders = no mods = no site - it's pretty much as simple as that.

Titles mean nothing, there are people on this site who have released incrediblily well thought out and developed mods, and they will only ever releaase one, a title is nothing more than a shiney badge. Somehow I'm an advanced coder here Dunno how that happenend.

Originally Posted by Immortal

It's that kind of attitude made vB.org what it is now. I may be rather new to vB.org but I can sense a problem, and that just supports it.

So trying to concenctrate on the other 99% of the community instead of the one or two users who are leaving?

Originally Posted by The Geek

I should have known that celebrating coders here was a prediction that would never happen. Now I've got confirmation from one of the ol boys club that its so

Ah, see, I think the coders who do actively work and release stuff do deserve celbration, but its not going to happen when they are trying to make a sence.

Alot of features you see in the vBulletin package now, came from hardcore coders from the past. I think they aleast deserve a thanks or some form of credit where credit is due. Almost every coder here will thank other coders in there threads when they help them out, or point to the original idea that was requested to show that the idea was taken from so and so. Coders give more respect to fellow coders alike then Jelsofts development and managment team does. Thats where the main problem lies

I'm here and was here and at vBT as a coder, and user before I was staff. I have the utmost respect for the coders. The people who actively contribute to this site and want nothing more back than the praise of the people they work for. I see coders as people who develop hacks for their own needs, not for praise.


On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place. This has never changed, you leave today, tomorrow a new coder will start and get reoniczed etc. I'm sorry that you feel you need to leave the community, but thats your choice, your mind is made up and theres nothing that can stop you.

[Mephisteus]

Originally Posted by Zachery

Titles mean nothing, there are people on this site who have released incrediblily well thought out and developed mods, and they will only ever releaase one, a title is nothing more than a shiney badge. Somehow I'm an advanced coder here Dunno how that happenend.

Because you made and released hacks that were liked? The badge is earned, therefor it means something. If a lot of badges were to get up and leave it would suddenly become a very nice badge to have indeed. A title is a tribute to what you have accomplished, don't say its nothing.

Originally Posted by Zachery

So trying to concenctrate on the other 99% of the community instead of the one or two users who are leaving?

No, just don't ignore or beat down the ones that are leaving.

Originally Posted by Zachery

Ah, see, I think the coders who do actively work and release stuff do deserve celbration, but its not going to happen when they are trying to make a sence.

Not quite sure what you are saying there. I am just assuming that that last word is supposed to be 'scene'.
People stand up for what they want, they will say it and just leave if it doesn't happen. Explaining why is basically showing respect to people by not just disappearing, and allowing for some discussion to come up to resolve the issue.

Originally Posted by Zachery

I'm here and was here and at vBT as a coder, and user before I was staff. I have the utmost respect for the coders. The people who actively contribute to this site and want nothing more back than the praise of the people they work for. I see coders as people who develop hacks for their own needs, not for praise.

Some people make em for praise, most for their own needs (which is not quite true, they started for their own needs but proper documentation + support is not for yourself, but for others) or completely for someone else's need. The coders here aren't selfish, if they were, well, they wouldn't be here.

Originally Posted by Zachery

On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place. This has never changed, you leave today, tomorrow a new coder will start and get reoniczed etc. I'm sorry that you feel you need to leave the community, but thats your choice, your mind is made up and theres nothing that can stop you.

If enough people get up and leave it won't go back to what it was. It'll leave a scar, simple as that. The new coders won't show up for quite a while since they will see what happened or hear about and procedingly (if the reasons are good enough) steer clear.


I have seen attitudes like yours wreck things before, and not just sites.

[hambil]

Originally Posted by Zachery

On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place. This has never changed, you leave today, tomorrow a new coder will start and get reoniczed etc. I'm sorry that you feel you need to leave the community, but thats your choice, your mind is made up and theres nothing that can stop you.

This upsets me. I've worked for companies most of my life who treated me this way. A piece of meat. Replaceable. I left that grind because of that attitude. I didn't expect to find it here too.

[Immortal]

Zachery, you will need to learn how to respect users. We do this for free, and you need to learn to respect us. We are telling you what needs to be changed, but instead, you keep thinking "new ones will replace these", what if they don't? But they might, and they will probably have the same fate (if it comes down to it) with the majority of them leaving. We are trying to send you a message here, things need to change whether you like or not. The way things are now, are not working out. We are telling you how it is, and not demanding things. We all don't get paid for doing these types of things, like you do. And you being the one with the salary, need to learn how to treat others equally and with respect. Just because you wear a vB.com badge does not make you any better then us, honestly I could careless. You are just another individual to me, and probably most everyone here thinks of you the same way.

[Chroder]

There are definitely problems with vBorg, which is why I try to stay away as much as possible. I come here to browse and the tension is almost palpable. I can hardly stand to browse, let alone post work that I've done. Then coming to read this thread to hear Zack saying the coders of this forum (which are also customers) are nothing but expendable. I just adore how the staffers love us so!

If we leave, new coders may come. But the problems will always remain unless something is done.

[Zachery]

Yes, things do need to change. But not in the way most of you are thinking. Remember, I devoted tons of my own personal time to vBT before I was staff, do you know how many professional companys out there started using my code for vB3 instead of writing their own? There are tons of pre-made styles, and even custom ones that use my tutoirals written at vBulletinTemplates and vBulletin.org.

I respect every coder who wants to be here to help the community. There are tons of people here who have gone way above and beyond the call and done more than they need to.

Just because you wear a vB.com badge does not make you any better then us, honestly I could careless. You are just another individual to me, and probably most everyone here thinks of you the same way.

You are absolutly right, good, I want you to not give me any more special treatment than you would anyone else. And I never expect special treatment from anyone, nor did I ask for it. Good, as it should be, Lets keep it that way then.

I work my ass off on my hacks here and I'm not paid for it, my vB.org time is not reembursed with money, but with the users I educate. If I can walk away educating a few users every day on how to code, even if its as simple as html I've done my job.
I have a problem with the coders who are here for their own personal agendas and reasons.

[Paul M]

Originally Posted by Zachery

Titles mean nothing

As you (should) well know - on this site coder/adv/master/designer basically means you have contributed work (since one hack + 10 installs qualifies you as a coder, something similar for template mods) I would think that 99% of people who have released work here have one of these titles - and yet you just dismiss them out of hand as 'nothing'. You can have 200,000 users, but with no coders/designers there is nothing for them.

[Trana]

Originally Posted by Tony G

If members feel the atmosphere around here isn't as good as it used to be, you guys will need to do the work too to make it a better place, because its negative attitudes and threads like this which ruin it.

I think this comment is a bit ridiculous. It is obvious to most of the people who have been here for a while that there is a problem, yet the moderators of this site say that the problem should be resolved by the members?

I think the mods could do a much better version of making peace on this board and it shouldn't fall on the members. If my site wasn't doing well, I would sit down all the moderators and put together a list of ideas on how to make it better. You shouldn't expect your members to carry a "broken" site forever, eventually they will find a place that meets their needs better and move on. It seems like a lot of them have already.

Originally Posted by Zachery

On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place.

I don't see how this works. On my boards, if someone that no one knows leaves, nothing happens, but if a long time contributing member disappears or posts a goodbye message, I make sure that one of the mods (normally myself) sit down with the person individually to determine if there was something that upset them or something the site could have done to keep their interest.

The people that are joining now are not going to get good at developing hacks for a while (mainly due to the product/plugin system). If a good person and good coder was leaving, I wouldn't dismiss it as easily as you have.