Fixing vBulletin and bringing the hacker community back together.

[buro9]

Originally Posted by ap0c

jelsoft would lose alot of money on that deal. Most people like free things better than paying for them,bugs or not

I wasn't specifically trying to suggest open source as a route, I actually like Jelsoft and the point in an Enterprise edition was partly so that when I have to implement forums as part of my job that not only I can get the pleasure of working with software that I know and am comfortable with, but that Jelsoft would be making considerable money from the licenses and possibly a corporate support package (which both BT and PTV (as I had mentioned them) would pay a princely sum for).

My view is simply that vBulletin has part of the SME and nearly all of the home user 'hobbyist'/gamer markets sewn up. They lack penetration into the higher level markets, and thus the source of revenue in that space. Revenue (and innovation) which helps guarantee vBulletins longevity rather than leave the niche unfilled waiting for another product to appear.

As regards the directory... How many times have you seen something on a site and wondered how they did it? Where the hack was? So has to search at least: vBulletin.com, vBulletin.org, vBulletin.nl, The Admin Zone, vBulletin Templates, Everything VB to name but a few... to find out whether the modification you had seen had been published.

Similarly, when you want to develop a hack and wonder if it exists, don't you have to look all around again?

Do all vBulletin users have to do this? Are they even aware of all these sites? Most importantly though, is this the best thing that we (the community) can come up with to help the community get the most out of vBulletin? Should we not be seeking to find better ways of doing things?

As hack writer when I write hacks it's because I'm putting functionality onto my site and choose to publish the changes to help give back. Increasingly hack writers are having to ask where they should publish, what I've proposed would go some way to make it irrelevant... that a single repository listing all of the hacks and sending the admins to the right thread on the right site ensures that no hacks are lost and the effort in producing them wasted.

That's not a quest, it's a process. The same process that gave birth to vBulletin and nearly all other innovation by humans... the simple question of "Could this be better?", "Is there another way"? I just think that a neutral (run and modifiable by all - not owned by Jelsoft) Wiki would be better.

[Dean C]

vBulletin will never become open source - the idea is you pay for the product and support. I've never had to use support like a lot of people so I think Jelsoft would lose far too much money via this route.

[buro9]

* Sigh *

I didn't say that vBulletin should, would or could be open source, merely that if a major hack were developed to produce an Enterprise version, that the ownership of the hack might later need the benefits of Open Source to be developed... i.e. collaborative development and vision leadership. In no way at all does that imply that vBulletin code would ever be distributed or reproduced: It merely says that a hack of this size and nature and given the complex integration of it could possibly benefit from not being owned by an individual. Thus if such an undertaking were decided to be a positive thing and commenced, were any key developers to then quit the project, that the project life could be continued as that developer wouldn't "take their ball home with them".

Consider for example the life of the HTL if KuraFire to abandon it (sick of disclaiming, but... what IF he got sick of it, what IF he were hit by a bus, what IF his life priorities changed, what IF? etc etc... project chosen arbitrrily, etc, blah blah)... wouldn't those that now rely upon the hack find that their hacks needed re-working, etc... wouldn't several others in the community wish to continue that hack... well, they couldn't as KuraFire has placed a license on it preventing that and owning it.

So my only mention in relation to open source was based on several enormous IF's.
IF the community likes the idea of an Enterprise version
IF Jelsoft doesn't want to pursue this
IF the community wanted to pursue it
IF the scale and size of this project is anything near what you could image
and IF those who wanted to contribute felt that collaborative and open development would be the way forward
THEN they could CONSIDER open FOR THE HACK ALONE and not vBulletin, which of course you would have to own.

I would also like to disclaim whilst I'm here, anything said ever by me that you could possibly interpret as being negative or against whatever beliefs you have personally attached to vBulletin. I am a very clam and patient fellow, and my intentions are solely to try and improve vBulletin... and this thread is merely a DISCUSSION about what we could possibly achieve as a community to help make things better.

* Sigh *

[Floris]

Originally Posted by 13th_Disciple

I don't see where your site was specifically mentioned in his post.. It is an opinion about how to bring together all for a singular common good. I see nothing bad about that and don't see it as a "quest" of any kind..

Nice post, buro9.. i for one think it is a good idea. But I doubt there is much, if any formal support for either of your suggestions.. Also, the open source idea, it generally doesn't fly around here as everyone "has to get paid" for their services or it isn't worth their time..

i also don't believe some of the things you are looking for out of MySQL are available yet.. Isn't it ver. 5 that will finally support stored procedures? t may do it now, but I thought it was 5 that will support it.. Also, the external user information would make it easy to develop a ton of other things.. as well as be able to pass that information across different authentication protocols..

i really like the vBulletin software, but I really can't stand some of the attitudes from some of the people involved in the heirarchy of it all.. It makes it seem as if you must be loyal to them or worthy of their time before anyone anywhere invlves themselves in anything someone may ask.. there have been a few helpful folks, but most of them are few and far between anymore.. and with sites spreading out, people not caring and no one in the upper eschelon paying attention, it will only get worse..

that is also my 2 cents.. but I am not the only one here who thinks things are falling apart. and aparently, offering ideas to pull things together such as buro9 suggested, already get the drop kick right from the get go.. gg folks..

Try the first sentence.

buro9

As regards the directory... How many times have you seen something on a site and wondered how they did it? Where the hack was? So has to search at least: vBulletin.com, vBulletin.org, vBulletin.nl, The Admin Zone, vBulletin Templates, Everything VB to name but a few... to find out whether the modification you had seen had been published.

Users shouldn't join my site to search for a hack, they should search for resources after registration and finding out there is also a resource section. Again, vbnl is a fan site, not a hack site - I'd appriciate it if I wasn't mentioned on the same list in this type of discussion - since it gives an incorrect assumption to the rest.

[filburt1]

Originally Posted by Brad.loo

IMO the one thing jelsoft needs to do is build a database api for vBulletin. This would allow you to run vbulletin on a wide rang of database servers. I don't see the point in trying to have multiple sets of the source code, I think that would hurt development more then it would help.

The one thing they need to do is actually document their functions, preferably with PHPDoc style so I know what the hell each argument means...

[buro9]

Originally Posted by filburt1

The one thing they need to do is actually document their functions, preferably with PHPDoc style so I know what the hell each argument means...

That I agree with too.

I'd love more comments in their code too... really plain stuff, the obvious.
I was coding in C, C++ and PERL before picking up PHP, and it's a nightmare that first time you read a massive block of code and wonder what it's doing.

It may be repetitive, but I think that there is a lot that can be gained from highly commenting it, not least that it would make the code less scary to newbies who want to try their hand at hacking and are stuck wondering just what escape_slashes() does.

Then there are things like common tasks... I think the key pieces of functionality (send a PM for example) should be wrapped in a nice little developer API... so fewer hacks required code duplication or file changes... they could exist as seperate files and just call the API's... which of course should be highly documented.

We could take it upon ourselves to do some of that... but this is core product stuff, and I doubt anyone will install a hack that simply adds comments!

[Reeve of shinra]

Lately, I've been looking at other open source projects coded in php and I have a deeper appreciation for VB in how the code is commented. It also seems that hacks are fairly well organized around the vb world as well compared to some open source projects as well.

An enterprise edition of vbulletin may expand thier market presence, but that would be a whole new product for a different market segment. I think changing what we have today may actual lose the maket share they already have.

[Rein Masamuri]

Jelsoft should not go to an enterprise version. Java and the like restrict freedom in the product and limits the flexibility that is inherited by opensource like PHP which would cut down extremely if not completely the possibility to release hacks. It would also alienate their current base, whom enjoy said hackability. The price and lack of expandibility would also prevent people from honestly suggesting vBulletin as a viable software for their company as it wouldn't be able to grow with their company.

[sabret00the]

<a href="http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97747" target="_blank">http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97747</a>

this might be of interest buro

[Giveit2u43]

Originally Posted by ap0c

jelsoft would lose alot of money on that deal. Most people like free things better than paying for them,bugs or not

Jelsoft tried the free route a while back with vBulletin-Lite and decided they didn`t like it..