I think I've had enough

[Paul M]

Originally Posted by Brad

Personally I do not see a problem with users wanting to help out by coding things for this site, I think it's a great idea and would move things a long faster then the way we do thing at this moment. Perhaps we could set up some sort of dev area that people can visit if they wish to help out, there they can submit code or make changes to existing code if they desire. The only problem with that is security issues, so it couldn't be something that was totally open to everyone.

Forum layout: There are plans to re-order the forums, but it keeps getting put off for one reason or another. I agree it's messy right now and it needs to get done.

Donations: If someone wants to donate I don't see a problem with giving them a button to do so. I know a few people already include a paypal link in their threads now.

Finding hacks: I agree there are issues with finding hacks sometimes. It's really a issue with a lot of things, the search engine tends to give you bad results and the layout we use now doesn't help. Not to mention that layout has changed over the years many times and threads have been moved around.

Giving coders more: I think we should do everything in our power to make them feel welcomed and appreciated. Coloring their username sounds fine to me, as we already give you a title anyway. However I think that is just a gimmick to be honest and won't improve much. Maybe we could pick certain modifications and have someone write a review of them and interview the author. As it stands now the only way you'll ever get on the front page is by having a hack with a lot of installs or winning hack of the month.

The modification 'system': I agree this needs to be improved and has needed it for awhile. One thread just isn't enough for most modifications now, no matter how many template edits and little additions we add to them. What I've always wanted to see was something like sourceforge here. Give the authors a place for users to report bugs to them. Keep multiple revisions of that hack, have a place to release beta versions, separate feedback posts from support posts, have an area for multiple authors to get together and work on a common goal.

I think you have covered a large number of recent suggestions in one sweep there, and since things cannot be changed in a day, there's a fair bit to go at. If anyone wants to include me in discussions then just ask, I'm here everyday when not on holiday.

[Revan]

There's gonna be riots for those that don't get included in the discussion
I know Ill start one fo sho XD

But onto a more important note: The development of the site. I agree about the security issue, but lets not forget the fact that the hack database (most current example) doesn't need to be integrated into vBulletin files to such an extent as a lot of other hacks here. If there was a SVN repository available for the hack db, and the plugins were stored as flatfiles using include(), then it would be fully possible to have a number of coders cooperate on getting it up and running faster than I drop my pants when visiting a porn site.... eh scratch that bit.
Moving on, I know that *I* would very much enjoy having it on my name that I contributed to the development of the hack db, that would have been great fun as well as getting a sense of belonging to this place. Also, the admins could go through the code and review it and question any dodgy code they don't feel belong there.
So yeah, I suggest major development projects for vBorg be assigned to a SVN/CVS repos so that we can all contribute without risk of security holes.

[stonyarc]

Almost all members are admins and a lot of coders are running large (even very large sites too) so we do have a clear vision on how to run sites.

Stating that we'll learn if we run our own sites isn't the right way to go. We DO know how to run large sites.

So most of the suggestions are valid and needed to improve/revive vb.org.

One of the important things vb.org should also tackle is the protection of it's code and coders against leaching (licensing?copyright?membership?)


As for members, some of them really should learn to say please and stop flaming after a minute. There are other ways. I always try to stay polite and help out if I can. The least they could do is to hold back on the insults and the pushing.

As for the site itself, a lot of us are coders. I'm sure we can help out with creating whatever code is needed.

I'm sure most of us would love to help out in creating a sourceforge or versioning system. It cannot be that hard with all the talent we have here

[GamerJunk.net]

Originally Posted by LiveWire

I'm also really really sick and tired of customers coming to this site and demanding, bashing, and degrading what this site once was. Not only do the non-coder customers do it, but lately I've seen this in allot of the staff here.

Pot this is kettle. I think it's time you meet.

I understand your frustration. Rather than making a post that basically is you exploding out the door why not have come to the table with ideas and plans to make this site work a bit better. Contact the staff personally and let them know how you feel. Show them what is wrong.

The lack of updates from VB.org is annoying, I too agree there needs to be some type of order in place.

1. Require a certain number of posts to be able to request modifications.
2. Create 2 Coder Forums. One for Advanced Coders and one for Beginners.
3. Update the main site more rather than when there is a new VBulletin Security Release.
4. Rather than just "Hack Of The Month" why not give Developers prizes maybe even in a cash form to show more appreciation for them.
5. Create a module that allows Developers to release their code in a form that can be purchased. A repository that is user friendly and works. www.joomla.org look at the extensions. That is a clean way of doing it.

Hate to see you go, but thanks for the work you have provided here. I will hopefully find your work around the net if you do choose to continue coding Vbulletin mods.

[The Geek]

My suggestion for the first step is to get a team together for development for the hack DB system.
One that is more purpose built than the release threads here. Ideally with a mini bug tracker that will give people a place to submit bugs, get responses and see what issues are outstanding without having to trollop through 50 pages of discussion.
That alone will solve a lot of coder and user issues.

[calorie]

Coders are important, sure, and there appears to be a need for recognition above and beyond that currently provided. Perhaps coders could be involved in vBorg development, be able to open a big project release forum, have the ability to turn on/off a bug reporting system, etcetera.

However, let's not fail to recognize what the 'members' provide. Without 'members' trying and commenting on mods, the 'coders' on this forum may not have found/fixed mentioned bugs, improved interfaces, enhanced features, etcetera. Also, let us not forget 'designers' and graphics.

That said, and not to dismiss comments/suggestions on any side, IMHO there is a certain lack of communication that a rapid fire of suggestions is not going to fix. To wit, there are a few members that download mods only to post them on their sites. Why do staff allegedly do nothing?

The topic of pilfered mods has been brought up several times in the past, and is used here as an example. So, why do staff allegedly do nothing, or is it that you don't know what staff do, or why/not they do it? Same goes for vBorg development teams, as well as other things.

There seems to be an apparent divide, like an us/them attitude, and I propose that 'liasons' become a new part of this site. Why? IMHO this site needs a 'go between' person, or persons, who can elicit responses from vBcom and vBorg staff as to why this and that is such and so.

While I've come to realize that staff actually do listen, I don't think it's always portrayed in the best/clearest light. The point of a liason, a non-staff member, would be to step in and relay why there is, for example, this protect-your-own-mods attitude and what not.

A liason could step into a thread and say, "you know X, it might have been better to say..." and this would go for all staff, codes, designers, members, or whatever the title. A liason could, for example, ask LiveWire what change right now would affect your decision to leave.

A liason is an objective person, as objective as humanly possible, who must be answered by staff, who must be respected by staff and non-staff alike, and who can provide coherent and reasonable answers to questions, all while honoring vB com/org expectations of privacy.

IMHO, if people were more aware of certain things, there would be less of these type of threads.

Liason, what do you think?

[Freesteyelz]

These quotes sum it up nicely in one sweep:

Originally Posted by Brad

Instead of dwelling on these things and fighting with one another we need to look at the bigger picture: improving vBulletin.org.

Originally Posted by Brad

You can't decide to 'go on strike' and expect staff members to jump because you said jump. When you do thing like that you make me feel like I'm begin bullied into doing whatever it is you want done.

Originally Posted by Brad

The correct way to go about this is to discuss things in a positive manner

I was rather curious as to why it took until post #75 from the thread's poster to offer solutions. Had the solutions been offered in post #1 (along with the concerns) the calling for change could have played out much smoother. The upside: Tons of valid points; downside: the drama. There are better strategies than placing people on the defensive.

[Chris M]

Members already have a liason to the staff - amykhar

Chris

[calorie]

Great, but could amykhar use some help?

PS: just an FYI: didn't know amykhar was a liason until today. Hmm.

[smacklan]

Lots of good points made from both sides. A thriving community is like a family and everyone will have disagreements from time to time, but in the end we all have a vested interest in getting along and resolving differences. Not being a coder, but just a lowly skin provider *winks at The Geek*, I don't have much to offer other than to say I have released some of my work for free, at a not so shaby expense to myself, and did so only for the satisfaction helping someone else it brings. The bottom line to me is that vBulletin is a rather successful company and would continue to be so not because of the hugh mod community, but because of the strength of the core product. This thread wouldn't even be going on did it not exist, so I personally don't feel that Jelsoft really "owes" any of us anything other than their great support and a hearty thanks for enriching them. I also think, however, that they are astute business people who will react to their customer's needs...it's just that large systems don't always move at a very fast pace. Having said all this, I appreciate the discussion and wish all involved parties the best and a Happy Mother's Day weekend (those of you who recognize the holiday )

Cheers!