vb.org consent..

[filburt1]

Originally Posted by exasko

Am I missing something?

US copyright law is the prohibiting factor here, not vB.org rules, and there isn't a thing that can be dnoe about that.

[Osterling]

Originally Posted by zsdave

I'm new to vb.org and new to vb but I do feel that vb.org needs real change, it is a major asset to vb and part of the reason so many users are attracted to vb and compelled to renew their license.

Hackers vs Hackers: Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out ?300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.

Recent example:
I created a shoutbox addon for vbindex (it adds a shoutbox to the forum home display and also adds top 10 shouters and number of shouts a member has made)
Some of the queries where the same as those via the original vbindex code, have you not heard the expression: Don't reinvent the wheel. The addon did use a large amount of code from vbindex but it was an addon and credit was given, still NTLDR removed the addon. I released this because, I wanted it so I figured someone else may want it. That should be the reason hacks are released. (Unless someone wants a hacker to make a hack)
My addon added atleast 4 major things: shoutcounter, forum home display, forum home shout adding, top ten shouters. It is absurd to remove an addon which adds something just because someone else made it using some of your code.

Hackers Attitude:
This leads on to overall hackers attitude to eachother and to non hackers:

• hackers are not on a higher level of existence
• hackers should all work to one goal: to further improve vbulletin by releasing addons
• hacks do not compete for members to use them
• hack counts aren't important

Not sure why some hackers think the above things are not true. But, sad as it is, people can be like that.

support
I enjoy supporting my hack(s), however frustrating, it gives ideas for improvement, bugfixes and improves the community feel of vb.org. Some hackers don't like to support their modifications, and that's fair. Hacks are released under no obligation or warranty, I don't think anyone has the right to complain or demand anything from anyone on this forum.

Basicly I agree with the first post:

- hacks should not have strict ownership aslong as credit is given. Hackers are working together not in competition. Ok it's a male dominated community but why compete over something so pointless.

- vb.org needs to address this issue, the forum does need opening so that there is a clear catagory to talk about making mods and hack in progress areas and other such stuff...

Very Well Said

[Geographic2]

I can point out a few GPL packages that people have developed a bit and are now putting this "everythingVB hack" license on.

[quote]
FullAttribution.
You must give the original author credit, visibly on your site.

LimitedDerivs.
You may make derivative works, but you must contact the original author before releasing your alterations.

LimitedTranslation.
You may translate this Hack, but you must contact the original author before releasing your translation.
[quote]

If your hack is on a GPL base the hack must also be GPL am I correct?


PS - WHile you mods and admins are floating round,
when my vb members area access expires on my owned license do I lose access to vb.org?

Am I missing something too?

[Chris M]

Originally Posted by zsdave

I'm new to vb.org and new to vb but I do feel that vb.org needs real change, it is a major asset to vb and part of the reason so many users are attracted to vb and compelled to renew their license.

Hackers vs Hackers: Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out ?300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.

Recent example:
I created a shoutbox addon for vbindex (it adds a shoutbox to the forum home display and also adds top 10 shouters and number of shouts a member has made)
Some of the queries where the same as those via the original vbindex code, have you not heard the expression: Don't reinvent the wheel. The addon did use a large amount of code from vbindex but it was an addon and credit was given, still NTLDR removed the addon. I released this because, I wanted it so I figured someone else may want it. That should be the reason hacks are released. (Unless someone wants a hacker to make a hack)
My addon added atleast 4 major things: shoutcounter, forum home display, forum home shout adding, top ten shouters. It is absurd to remove an addon which adds something just because someone else made it using some of your code.

Hackers Attitude:
This leads on to overall hackers attitude to eachother and to non hackers:

• hackers are not on a higher level of existence
• hackers should all work to one goal: to further improve vbulletin by releasing addons
• hacks do not compete for members to use them
• hack counts aren't important

Not sure why some hackers think the above things are not true. But, sad as it is, people can be like that.

support
I enjoy supporting my hack(s), however frustrating, it gives ideas for improvement, bugfixes and improves the community feel of vb.org. Some hackers don't like to support their modifications, and that's fair. Hacks are released under no obligation or warranty, I don't think anyone has the right to complain or demand anything from anyone on this forum.

Basicly I agree with the first post:

- hacks should not have strict ownership aslong as credit is given. Hackers are working together not in competition. Ok it's a male dominated community but why compete over something so pointless.

- vb.org needs to address this issue, the forum does need opening so that there is a clear catagory to talk about making mods and hack in progress areas and other such stuff...

Firstly, what does a male dominated community have to do with anything? I fail to see the relevance of this gender bias in this debate...

Secondly, about NTLDR's actions - The vB.org rules state that you are not allowed to modify and/or release without prior consent from the original hack author... That means you should have asked NTLDR before releasing anything which uses code from vBindex...

Thirdly:

Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out ?300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.

I think you will find, that if you check the copyright laws thoroughly, all of your works and ideas relating to your works, i.e. code and/or website designs etc, are actually Copyright the person who created them, without the need to "fork out ?300 - 400"...

Check the "Copyright, Design and Patents Act of 1988" (in the UK) for more details...

And finally, please check the rules before you do something which the Mods must take action over - I understand you are new, but we have been abiding by the laws for some time now, and have come to accept them...

I feel it is always the newer members who never seem to get the idea of the history and former community of vB.org :ermm:

Satan

[Wayne Luke]

I, personally, have some ideas about this issue that can resolve some of the issues for future hacks and addons. I will discuss them with the staff here and we will see what kind of solutions we can come up with that will allow hack authors to retain their rights while allowing for abandoned ideas and projects to be picked up by interested developers.

Once that is done, any solutions will be made available to the community.

[Osterling]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

I, personally, have some ideas about this issue that can resolve some of the issues for future hacks and addons. I will discuss them with the staff here and we will see what kind of solutions we can come up with that will allow hack authors to retain their rights while allowing for abandoned ideas and projects to be picked up by interested developers.

Once that is done, any solutions will be made available to the community.

thank you

[Geographic2]

Things will be alot better around here if we as hackers here had the attitude of sourceforge than the attitude of microsoft...

[Velocd]

Yes, that would be ideal.

If the following is sort of off-topic, please pardon me, although it's on my mind and I thought I'd voice it.

Most developers at Sourceforge are quite skilled at their programming, and most hackers on these forums aren't. For this site, it creates an environment of amatuer competition, and people who don't like to share.

If vBulletin.org ever wanted to head into the cooperative haven that Sourceforge is, there would have to be an integrated way of creating hack projects. These could be threads, but instead of just containing the regular information of a hack, it contains the group members of the project, progress updates, etc. These threads could be located in a sub-forum maybe called "Unreleased Projects," or something to that flavor, and when the project is finished it can be moved into the actual hack forum for download.

I often see hack-project threads of 4 pages or more posted around where one individual introduces their hack-in-progress and people just talk about it for pages on. What I addressed above sounds like a more formal and effective way of going about things.

The best part of cooperative working, even if it's a group of somewhat inexperienced coders, is that people can help out on another and everyone can benefit and progress their skills.

To be honest though, no vBulletin hack is ever really that large for more than 1 person (that is, if that person is moderate experience in PHP). Still, it's an idea to consider.

[sabret00the]

i think that sums it up, along with Boofo's post about no one wanting to support their hacks anymore

re: filburts comment in reply to supporting hacks; i thought it was your duty as mod to try and get around where possible and offer support where needed across the whole forums, esepcially considering you're a super mod? (genuine question)

i think people really do need to calm down though, maybe going back to my idea about tick boxes, maybe people could tick "you're welcome to use this code in a non-competative hack as long as full credit it given where due"? it would solve so many problems.

as for the vBindex thing, i think it would've been seen as more acceptable if you released it as a find line XXX and and paste to line XXX or something like that, although being that it was actually an add-on i'm not sure what was the problem exactly.

[tehste]

Originally Posted by sabret00the

i think that sums it up, along with Boofo's post about no one wanting to support their hacks anymore

re: filburts comment in reply to supporting hacks; i thought it was your duty as mod to try and get around where possible and offer support where needed across the whole forums, esepcially considering you're a super mod? (genuine question)

i think people really do need to calm down though, maybe going back to my idea about tick boxes, maybe people could tick "you're welcome to use this code in a non-competative hack as long as full credit it given where due"? it would solve so many problems.

as for the vBindex thing, i think it would've been seen as more acceptable if you released it as a find line XXX and and paste to line XXX or something like that, although being that it was actually an add-on i'm not sure what was the problem exactly.

the problem was I didnt get permission to release an addon. From the original hack maker. Then when I asked for permission he denied it on the basis i used some of the vbindex code!

Also I'm pretty sure you cant *just* get a copyright without going to a licensing body and paying for the rights. A community simmilar to sourceforge would be much better. There is competition in a community where competition is not needed.

Cant people just work together?