for those who have left

[Freesteyelz]

Originally Posted by Revan

But on that "us and them" aspect, I don't think that the fact that there is an "us and them" aspect that's the problem. Humans are like that, I believe. We like to stick people in containers and label them.

We "label" people as a way to help us identify, associate and categorize them. There is a natural human tendency to want to compete against one another but that has everything to do with the growth of the whole and not the individual. What's more powerful, however, is the need to relate to one another, human being to human being.

The "us and them" is nothing more than ego-trippin'. It has everything to do with looking down on those who do not fit into a particular group. It's about clashing. There is no resolve to this kind of attitude, just animosity, hatred and disgust. Having an ego is one thing (we all have it and it is a good thing to have) but the whole superiority complex of we stick our claim because we're better than you gets old.

In a successful business the heads of companies value every employee, client and customer. They understand the rules that everyone has a role. Sure, some roles are more important than others but all of the people are treated with respect and dignity. See, everyone wants to feel and be important.

This community (vB.org) is important to all of us in some way. By treating everyone else with the highest quality can only benefit the community we share.

[tgreer]

Originally Posted by Revan

You blatantly ignored my post didn't you... Or is it simply ignorance on your part? I have not seen a single thread in the coders discussion forum that could possibly be of any use to a newbie learning. Please point me to one, or if you are unable to do so, please stop acting like we possess the Holy Grail in there but refuse to let anyone else have a drink.

Define "newbie"? I'm an experienced, professional programmer, have been for many years. I'm new to vBulletin, yes, but not PHP or SQL, or web development in general. There have been several times when I've done a web search for a vBulletin topic/question, been directed to the archived Coders Discussion, come here to find I couldn't access it. In one such instance, I had to PM someone from the archive thread (who, it turns out, was very helpful; they just didn't read the "other" sections to know I had a similar question).

I would turn your question around: what discussion in the private, hidden coder's forum, needs to be private and hidden? The question about which function detects spiderbots? The link to the sitepoint thread about OOP? I don't see any thread in there that couldn't/shouldn't be posted in a public programming forum.

You assume that people who don't release hacks here are "newbies" and thus couldn't fathom your code. That's ridiculous. That forum should be closed and all of the threads moved to the "Programming Discussions" forum.

[COBRAws]

Originally Posted by MPDev

It's all about the coders, imo. Without the coders, there would be no code to embrace.

actually, you need a backend for code to display and be readable Its like a car having no wheels

[Revan]

Originally Posted by tgreer

Define "newbie"? I'm an experienced, professional programmer, have been for many years. I'm new to vBulletin, yes, but not PHP or SQL, or web development in general. There have been several times when I've done a web search for a vBulletin topic/question, been directed to the archived Coders Discussion, come here to find I couldn't access it. In one such instance, I had to PM someone from the archive thread (who, it turns out, was very helpful; they just didn't read the "other" sections to know I had a similar question).

I define newbie as a person new to PHP/MySQL, or with such limited knowledge of said languages that vBulletin context provides a bigger confusion than standalone code.

Originally Posted by tgreer

I would turn your question around: what discussion in the private, hidden coder's forum, needs to be private and hidden? The question about which function detects spiderbots? The link to the sitepoint thread about OOP? I don't see any thread in there that couldn't/shouldn't be posted in a public programming forum.

To take the sitepoint OOP thread as an example, it couldn't be posted in the public "programming forum" because said place is not fit for discussion. That is for asking questions, or so I believe since the "PHP/SQL/HTML" forum has been eradicated in the latest forum restructure.
Now I am fairly certain that the coder posting the link (I havent seen the thread in question) didn't have some form of newbie question (read above definition) regarding OOP or that thread in general, and therefore it is only natural to assume that said coder wanted to open up a discussion amongst his fellow coders regarding what the article states and whether or not any coders planned to implement some of the strategies in said thread.

Originally Posted by tgreer

You assume that people who don't release hacks here are "newbies" and thus couldn't fathom your code. That's ridiculous. That forum should be closed and all of the threads moved to the "Programming Discussions" forum.

I find this offensive. Your assumptions of my thoughts or meanings are not only completely off the mark, but they also try to make me look bad. Please refrain from making such assumptions in the future. If you have any questions about some of what I write, don't be afraid to ask.
Now let me clarify: I don't give a shit if a member is a PHP developer (ie. deleveloping the actual software) or has 20+ years on his back in the computer business doing PHP and all other forms of web coding with or without vBulletin. If the member does not care to contribute to the community, I see no reason why said member should be allowed to partake in discussion between contributors. Not to mention the fact that the Coders Discussion forums can be used to discuss security vulnerabilities in one of the coders' hacks; information at least I would not wish to be disclosed to the general public. As an example, Alan-CIT yesterday helped me fix one such vulnerability in one of my hacks, and while this did not happen in the CD forum, it very well could have.

[Dean C]

Originally Posted by tgreer

There have been several times when I've done a web search for a vBulletin topic/question, been directed to the archived Coders Discussion, come here to find I couldn't access it.

Nonsense, this forum has only been private for a week or two.

[tgreer]

Originally Posted by Dean C

Nonsense, this forum has only been private for a week or two.

Which is why old discussions, which have been archived, still show up in Google Search results. Come here to find them, though, and the door is closed.

Originally Posted by Revan

...To take the sitepoint OOP thread as an example, it couldn't be posted in the public "programming forum" because said place is not fit for discussion...

...If the member does not care to contribute to the community, I see no reason why said member should be allowed to partake in discussion between contributors...

And there it is. And you wonder about all the complaints regarding an elitist, cliqueish attitude here? I thought that was one of things that was going to be fixed. Evidently not.

Not to mention the fact that the Coders Discussion forums can be used to discuss security vulnerabilities in one of the coders' hacks; information at least I would not wish to be disclosed to the general public.

I disagree strongly - I advocate full disclosure of security issues, so that those affected can take immediate action. Why hide such issues behind closed doors? If I'm running a plugin with a security hole, I'd hope that the plugin author would make a public posting of the specific issue, steps being taken to address it, and a timeframe for the fix.

I think what it boils down to is that some coders want a semi-private cloister where they can code and hack without being bothered by newbies, except insofar as said newbies gratefully install their hacks. You know, part of me sympathizes with that. I just don't think that's what .org is meant to be. That can't be what JelSoft intends, especially when the default answer to most questions on .com is "ask over at vbulletin.org". This is, for better or not, the "official" site for custom vbulletin development. To me, that means a few things, including active, open coding discussions, and professional moderation. For those who want a private 1337-coderz club, I would say "it's time to grow up".

I would say that, but apparently I'm in the minority. So, time for me to slink back into the woodwork, and rely on vbulletin-faq and vbhackers and daniweb...

[noppid]

You lost me at... "I find this offensive" and then went on to say you "don't give a shit", Revan.

Actions like that are the pinnacle of the problem.

License holders should not be supject to segregation nor such elitist demeaning attitudes. .org is either an open development enviorment or not.

[smacklan]

Originally Posted by tgreer

I would say that, but apparently I'm in the minority. So, time for me to slink back into the woodwork, and rely on vbulletin-faq and vbhackers and daniweb...

You aren't in the minority, I assure you. The "general population" membership of this site will move on to other sites that operate more professionally and less like a "coders club"...it is simply a matter of time unless this culture is turned around.

[EasyTarget]

members are not going to leave, stop spreading gloom and doom.. members will come because this is the best place to get modifications. If the coders leave, then the members will follow. (number of hacks released/number of quality hacks released will go down, less content on the site, less reason for people to come)

You guys make it sound like members and newbies can't ask coding questions anymore if there's a private forum for coders. Nothing is going to stop people from asking questions nor from people answering them.

[noppid]

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

members are not going to leave, stop spreading gloom and doom.. members will come because this is the best place to get modifications. If the coders leave, then the members will follow. (number of hacks released/number of quality hacks released will go down, less content on the site, less reason for people to come)

You guys make it sound like members and newbies can't ask coding questions anymore if there's a private forum for coders. Nothing is going to stop people from asking questions nor from people answering them.

While that may be true, what is the point of any closed discussion on an open development forum? Especially when, as license holders, we are all sent here equally to get modification information.