The old style vs substance debate

[amykhar]

Around here, the argument about whether cool styles matter much when it comes to creating a popular site crops up every so often. The same conversation is going on out in blog world as well. I posted this in the lounge instead of in the coder's forum so that design people can join in the conversation.

Some starter quotes:

The point is, when you put someone who is primarily a designer in charge of your interface, you?re going to get a pretty interface. But, unless he is a designer that is aware of his own biases, he?s going to sacrifice some degree of usability for the sake of his pretty design.

I?m not saying that pretty advertising doesn?t have it?s place. But I do think that the web is a VERY different medium with very different reactions.

Back to my own thoughts. We've had flashy, cool banners for years. Most of us couldn't make hosting costs with the things. Now, we have plain google text ads, and many of us are able to cover costs and even finance improvements to our sites or put a little money in our pockets.

From another article:

sites that have ugly designs are well known to pull more revenue, be more sticky, build better brands, and generally be more fun to participate in, than sites with beautiful designs.

He joins a good list. Google. Is it pretty? No. Craig?s List? Pretty? No. MySpace? Pretty? No.

In my own experience, I have tried a lot of different styles over the years. And, invariably, my users demand one thing - a basic variation of the vbuletin default style with color changes and minor changes to make popular features easier to access.

I catch some flak here from time to time because I don't do much style-wise with my site. And, I tend to get a bit anxious about it and go try some new style technique in response. But, I am going to say for once and for all - I'm through with slick styles. Instead, my work is going to center on efficiency and useabilty.

Your thoughts?

[Princeton]

Content is the key to a successful site. However, if you don't understand USABILITY ... a successful site can be slow to achieve .. it all depends on how user-friendly your interface and design is.

Developing a successful site is about creating a positive user experience. However, creating this experience requires more than just great content - it's about creating a useful and usable site that is right for your intended target audience.
[rft]Attachment 46690[/rft]
[rft]Attachment 46689[/rft]Essentially, USABILITY is a combination of factors that affect a user's experience when interacting with your web site interface.

• Is the interface easy to learn?
• How easy is it to find content?
• How easy is it to read content?

Above are two images that displays USABILITY at work. What you're looking at is the "interface" that displays the content. This is just one small aspect of how you can work with USABILITY to make it easier for your readers.

Take a look at the two images above ... Which is easier to read? Which one promotes "reading"? Keep in mind that both images consist of the same content.

With that said, let me emphasize again...
Having great content alone is not enough! You need to understand USABILITY.

Now, in regards to "style vs substance"...

Here's how I break it down:

SUCCESS SCORE CARD:

SCORE: 100 = good design + good interface + good content
SCORE: 60 = bad design + good interface + good content
SCORE: 20 = good design + bad interface + good content
SCORE: 0 = bad design + bad interface + bad content

The higher the number the faster success will be achieved.

"good content" is what you're offering to reader. "good content" should pass the AIDAS Test:

• Does it grab user's ATTENTION?
• Does it strengthen INTEREST?
• Does it stimulate DESIRE?
• Does it make them take ACTION?
• Does it SATISFY a need?

A "good design" will:

• use color to place focus on specific elements ... for example, content, sponsors, etc
• use color that is appropriate for your intended target audience.
• use "text size" that is appropriate for your intended target audience.
• add to USABILITY not detract.

A "good interface" will:

• keep options on interface to a minimum.
  If it's not needed don't add it ... place it elsewhere such as "settings page".
• focus on content.
• be easy to learn.
• be easy to use (not cluttered).
• have a low error rate.

TIP:
If it looks good on print then you're closer to achieving a successful site.
I tend to focus on interface that will look good on paper (ie. brochures, etc) which is why a favor fixed-width layouts over liquid layouts.

[Freesteyelz]

You can achieve a "pretty" design and have userbility at the same time. I do not believe in the either or mentality. So I do agree with many of Princeton's points in this thread. A few thoughts to add:

A good designer...

- Will bring his/her experience into a project.
- Understands his/her audience/customers.
- Will create a user-friendly layout.
- Is not only creative but can turn an idea into something tangible.
- Will identify the client's needs and position (whenever hired).

[Tony G]

Some people very much underestimate the power of what a good looking style does for your forum. Good looking doesn't mean lots of images and that, it means something unique and in essense, different from the vBulletin default style. And some people think a simple colour change is enough, but with so many vB's around nowadays, it isn't.

Content is very important but if your style is boring, dull, unappealing, nobody will join up.

Forums which are popular with, for example the default vB style, have head starts. They may already have developed a community elsehwere, friends asked to join, etc. Too many people think the same will happen to them but they forget, they don't have that established community, they have nothing. And that's where the style comes in.

So yeah, in conclusion, you definitely need both. Having one or the other doesn't work anymore.

[Sean S]

Honestly, I believe that it's 50-50, I see many people say that flashy or cool design is not as important anymore, but I say that it does. like Tony made a good point with sites having a head start, but if I was about to go and become active in a new site that didn't bother to do anything with it's design, I wouldn't even bother revisiting it.

that's my own personal referrence, that I think that if the webmaster/admin is lazy enough to not care about the uniqueness of the looks of his/her website, than it's more than likely that he/she doesn't care about it's content as well. It may not make sense but that is how I look at different websites.

It also has to do with the category your site belongs too. I visit websites that targets designers/artists, therefore most of them are very graphical and yet very useful content wise, including cgtalk or gfxartist for example.

[TheDPQ]

Running stats that ugly sites do better doesn't mean ugly makes it better. You probably do better with google ads because it tries to match content better to whats being said in the thread. (Practical, funtional, usable) People worrying more about content then design can get more people coming back because the content is what they are really focused on when all is said and done.

It is not impossible to have a great design and simple useable interface. Look at the obsession people had with Apple for YEARS because of the design and easy of use (even if the cost was impractical!!). Before ipods came out who really had anything from apple who wouldn't have a defence of 'but it looks good'.

Its all about who you are marketing to.

Content is very important but if your style is boring, dull, unappealing, nobody will join up.

I wouldn't say that 100%. I've seem some naaaasssty site have a great community because thats the focus. I've seen amazing designs have nothing. Its not really a simple answer of 'design does/doesn't matter at all'.

It just depends to how MUCH it matters based on what your site is about and who your users are.

Nothing is more unappealing to me than an overdone interface. If the site is worth going to, the content should shine and the layout should be clean and easy to navigate with the "important" (for lack of a better word) content right up front. Marketing and your subjecct matter has a lot to do with it as well. If you're running a niche site (like I am), you need to deliver the goods at a short glance to keep people coming in.

.2c

[TruthElixirX]

Originally Posted by Princeton

Content is the key to a successful site. However, if you don't understand USABILITY ... a successful site can be slow to achieve .. it all depends on how user-friendly your interface and design is.

Developing a successful site is about creating a positive user experience. However, creating this experience requires more than just great content - it's about creating a useful and usable site that is right for your intended target audience.
[rft]Attachment 46690[/rft]
[rft]Attachment 46689[/rft]Essentially, USABILITY is a combination of factors that affect a user's experience when interacting with your web site interface.

• Is the interface easy to learn?
• How easy is it to find content?
• How easy is it to read content?

Above are two images that displays USABILITY at work. What you're looking at is the "interface" that displays the content. This is just one small aspect of how you can work with USABILITY to make it easier for your readers.

Take a look at the two images above ... Which is easier to read? Which one promotes "reading"? Keep in mind that both images consist of the same content.

With that said, let me emphasize again...
Having great content alone is not enough! You need to understand USABILITY.

Now, in regards to "style vs substance"...

Here's how I break it down:

SUCCESS SCORE CARD:

SCORE: 100 = good design + good interface + good content
SCORE: 60 = bad design + good interface + good content
SCORE: 20 = good design + bad interface + good content
SCORE: 0 = bad design + bad interface + bad content

The higher the number the faster success will be achieved.

"good content" is what you're offering to reader. "good content" should pass the AIDAS Test:

• Does it grab user's ATTENTION?
• Does it strengthen INTEREST?
• Does it stimulate DESIRE?
• Does it make them take ACTION?
• Does it SATISFY a need?

A "good design" will:

• use color to place focus on specific elements ... for example, content, sponsors, etc
• use color that is appropriate for your intended target audience.
• use "text size" that is appropriate for your intended target audience.
• add to USABILITY not detract.

A "good interface" will:

• keep options on interface to a minimum.
  If it's not needed don't add it ... place it elsewhere such as "settings page".
• focus on content.
• be easy to learn.
• be easy to use (not cluttered).
• have a low error rate.

TIP:
If it looks good on print then you're closer to achieving a successful site.
I tend to focus on interface that will look good on paper (ie. brochures, etc) which is why a favor fixed-width layouts over liquid layouts.

Man thats like the third one in two weeks. Where are you stealing these from?


I have tried some over the top designs but they get rejected and users on my site (and others I manage) jsut want a default layout with some minor color changes, like Amy said.

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by TheDPQ

Running stats that ugly sites do better doesn't mean ugly makes it better. You probably do better with google ads because it tries to match content better to whats being said in the thread. (Practical, funtional, usable) People worrying more about content then design can get more people coming back because the content is what they are really focused on when all is said and done.

It is not impossible to have a great design and simple useable interface. Look at the obsession people had with Apple for YEARS because of the design and easy of use (even if the cost was impractical!!). Before ipods came out who really had anything from apple who wouldn't have a defence of 'but it looks good'.

Its all about who you are marketing to.


I wouldn't say that 100%. I've seem some naaaasssty site have a great community because thats the focus. I've seen amazing designs have nothing. Its not really a simple answer of 'design does/doesn't matter at all'.

It just depends to how MUCH it matters based on what your site is about and who your users are.

I mentioned this in my post. These communities have headstarts, established members from somewhere else, etc. If you're starting a new forum and working by yourself, especially if your site's concept isn't the only one out there, you'll fail, not just a bit, but miserably without something nice to look at.

[Paul M]

There can never be a correct answer because no two people are the same. I despise overdone flashy styles, while others love them, what one person likes another dislikes, you can never win.