[MThornback]

I want to weigh in on this...but because compared to alot of the heavy weights in here i'm a VB newbie....I am a user as someone called it earlier in the thread...but not for the reason that you implied, and I take exception to being told i'm using people...I leech off peoples work for understanding of the software, php and how to make them work for me to improve my site...I ALWAYS pay credit where credit is due, and I respect the blood sweat and tears of every coder or designer thats part of this community. Reviewing their code has taught me a thing or three, and while i'm still mediocre...I get a bit better all the time...and I have THIS site to thank for it....and by this site I MEAN people like Livewire, Paul M, TheGeek and ZeroTolerence who release complex hacks (and simple ones) that run the gambit for the learning curve for someone like me to learn from.

A few general comments to groups from the newbie:

VB.org staff:
We enjoy this site, cause we keep comming back...but the verbal abuse thats gone on for neigh on 9 pages...has to stop...hambil said it best...we're all admins here....don't insult peoples abilities because of age-old grudges that have no bearing on an experienced member of this community expressing their frustration. He wasn't happy...he told us all why...he didn't say anything that threads all over the site can tell you anyway....community is lacking, and the biggest reason I see is the freedom of speech and the introspection that allows a community TO grow and to move in the direction they naturally progress is being stiffled by staff taking out private problems with individuals publically, and by stiffling ideas...

Disgruntled Coders/Designers of all degrees AND the staff too:
This community if nothing else is an excellent sounding board for ideas and for testing them and watching them come to life. When we lose ANY of you its a blow, because no matter how many installs you have...your work still has value to atleast 1 other person...so its worth SOMETHING....even if you never win HOTM or get a shiny title....when we lose someone who has released ALOT of work we lose the work, but we ALSO lose the resource for questions and help....which to me ends up being the biggest waste...because it creates a break in the cycle of learning....if no one learns from ghosts....

My guess is that no matter how many people get frustrated the community will survive....over time, people will be replaced and the newbie will rise to challenge the master coders of today....problem being that not only is the road harder to travel for the newbie, but the software suffers from the current master coders and designers tightening ranks and not teaching the tricks of the trade....

Thats how I see things....both sides have to actually LISTEN to each other instead of resorting to public pissing contests and bullshit matches....talk TO each other instead of AT each other and both sides might see progress until then your filling the post table for nothing....

my 0.02.