[Talisman]

Originally Posted by MPDev

If you don't want to have the discussion, then don't try to use excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny - just say you won't allow them because you don't want them here. There is no arguement to counter that.

You know what... speaking for me, personally, that is exactly what I'm saying. I don't want commercial projects advertised here ... period. And I know I'm not the only member who feels this way.

This doesn't mean that I don't ALSO support commercial hacks that are sold someplace else. I've also purchased several premium add-ons and premium styles because I decided they were worth the added expense ... for my site. We all make that decision for ourselves.

That being said, just what are those "... excuses that don't hold up to scrutiny" you're referring to? I've seen plenty of those posted on both sides of the question.. but mostly from angry people who're doing little more than throwing rocks at each other.

Let's look at some points made throughout this thread... Many of the advanced coders here have given away an enormous amount of free hacks. And no matter how diligent they were and how helpful and generous they've been, they still got badgered by thoughtless idiots who whined over every imaginable bug and truly expected to come here and get personal services for nothing. So many of these coders got fed up/burned out and they packed up their cookies and went home. Or, they set up a commercial site somewhere else so they could at least get some money back for the hard work they put into this (which is fine).

Will allowing commercial hackers to advertise here change or improve any of this? No. Not a chance. It just means those self-absorbed jerks will have paid hard-earned money for what they got, and that gives them a legitimate reason to complain when something isn't well coded and demand the higher level of support services they bought. Those hassles simply don't belong here. It interferes with the real purpose why this extended community is here.

Look what has happened to this site over the last few years just from what little advertsing and self-promotion that has been allowed in this far. I've read those well-intended threads where some guy got ripped off (or merely think he got ripped off) by another member who agreed to install a hack for $$$. Those almost always degrade into an endless pissing contest between people who also got taken vs. loyal customers and faithful friends who jump in to defend the poor sot who just got blasted in public. In the end, it's always the same thing. It's all one person's word against another in a situation where we'll never know who's right and who's wrong. And the same old advice the purchaser didn't heed in the first place... to not pay for services upfront when dealing with someone you don't know.

Is this the natural evolution everyone wants more of here? Not me... not at all. And why should the vb.org staff, or Jelsoft representatives for that matter, be bothered with crap like this ... here at vb.org? That's not their mess to clean up.

They allowed in a small section where buyers and sellers could get connected.. people can offer to pay someone to do work for them and commercial coders can contact members directly to quote their fees. A lot of good may or may not have come from that... personally, I haven't participated there so I can't speak for either side in those transactions. But there's a spillover effect that's easy to see all over the other sections of this site. And it's a horrible change that has affected how people relate to each other in this community.

As an example -- A new licensed member gets in way over his head, technically, and something he thought was easy to do blows up his site. He comes here asking ... sometimes begging ... for someone to PLEASE help him fix his board. Or asks for advice on how to fix it himself. Not everyone in a situation like that gets very good assistance. And it really saddens me to see replies to that person where another member says, oh I can fix it for you if you're willing to pay what I charge for my time. It wasn't all that long ago when someone else would have answered that thread with basic helpful advice for FREE, telling him to use the search feature or pointing him to a well-known thread that will help him solve his own problem and learn how to manage his own changes. But those people don't post those replies anymore. Someone else already did in a different way, so they let it go.

A while later the same person posts another plea for help that goes unanswered ... then the thread drops away and I don't know if that person ever even comes back here anymore.

Look at how many times new people post the first time saying they're willing to pay $20 to anyone who will help them. Or asking how much would it cost to hire someone to... etc.... etc....

We weren't getting all that nonsense here two years ago.