Suggestions for commercial scripts
 

As per Marcos suggestion in a previous thread, I am starting this thread as an open discussion regarding suggestiong on the possability of vbulletin.org offering customers a way to be aware of commerical vB enhancements while keeping the integral free script side of the community where its at (healthy and strong).

Although (I think) Marco hinted that they already have a good idea how and if they will proceed with something... I thought I would start things off with my suggestion on the previous thread: A directory.

What I would like to see is something like a directory of commercial scripts where users can rate and comment on the price, quality, support, etc...

Great idea! I don't think that would conflict with the commercial side of vbulletin - it would enhance their market appeal: "We have the best BB software in the world, and all of these available addons prove it!" If they were smart Jelsoft would offer a commercial (IE: PAID) listing of additional hacks.

Look at Pinnacle systems (another UK-based company) as a model, and you will see that they do allow 3rd party commercial products that are addons to their "Studio" software to be sold, in fact they even have a way to do it through the software! These addons have helped push "Studio" to become one of the best/most used video editing software packages in the world.

Don't charge much- just a small percentage of the sales- like a tax for the seller- and have them link through vbulletin.com to keep track of those sales. They could even have a link in the ACP that takes you to the commercial addon page at jelsoft.

I like the feedback/rating idea.

a simple weblinks of all the possible ressources would be the only solution, because the more you add, the more support have to be given... a weblink (let's say vbAdvanced one!) is a good solution, because we have a description of the product, and the link - even the rating from the clients can be added.

more would mean control and abstraction of clients - not all clients are happy with the products and may cause trouble in ratings, classifications and deals with coders.

we already had a lot of discussions about commercial scripts, and it all turns into flames regarding support or external services...

I think vBa links (or something similar) would be pretty much ideal.

Well- it would be one solution but not the only one. More "control" also means more $ for Jelsoft. I think that a paid commercial listing and a free one could possibly co-exist. I am sure that the revenue produced by adding a paid commercial listing would justify hiring someone part-time to deal with it. But- I am not going to take this thread off into another tangent: the discussion is about a lisitng or no listing- not a paid listing. Just adding my .03

Commercial hacks are not going to go away - as more coders here get better at coding and start offering new and innovative hacks they are going to want to be rewarded with more than a HOTM icon or the occasional paypal donation. I am surprised that ZT (and others here) didn't go "commercial" long ago- but I am sure it is on the horizon. We all know that these hacks are born out of many hours of coding and testing, and personally I do not mind paying for hacks that I will use. Naturally, some hacks would never fall into the commercial category, since I would never pay for a simple template edit hack, etc.. Of course as more hacks go commercial they will have to realize that warez and torrent sites are going to pass around their hacks- it is a given, and that is something the author will have to deal with.

I think this change could have a ripple affect on the site, in which more hacks would be released commercially(for pay) instead of being released free. vBulletin is known for it’s hacks and it’s also why people buy vBulletin because of vBulletin.org. I think if vBulletin.org would allow this, it could ruin the forum.

But that is just my perspective.

I'd never considered that option before, you do have a valid point - but I guess I'm still for a directory.

The fact is it is already happening. If Jelsoft ignores it and acts like it isn't happening, or to attempts to stifle that aspect of what is already happening THAT could ruin the board, IMO. When someone like Brian or Cinq or The Geek takes their codes off of vb.org and posts them solely on their sites what affect does THAT have on this site? If instead they work with the authors, and allow them the ability to advertise their sites as well as work within the community by offering beta versions to people here that will increase the quality of the hacks, and people will have an input on their development (and will also learn a thing or three about coding).

As already said in the other Thread:
I don't like the idea of having any commercial stuff here, be it a directory or whatever.
If this is going to happen, it might be a hard decision if I am going to stay.
But that is just my personal opinion as a User.

This is one of the sides to this story that we are taking into consideration. Releasing Hacks commercially is requires more then just put them on your homepage and say that people must pay for them, you will have to take care about the logistics, advertising and things like that. For a lot of coders the possible revenue (unless they go ask high prices for a single hack, which will cause them other problems like nobody buying, piracy, others creating a similar hack for free, etc..) the trouble of this just ooutweights the revenue.

Now what would happen if any coder can easily release their work as a paid hack, and can also easily take care of things like advertising by posting here at vb.org? Would they still release their 'small' (no disrespect intended, i made a lot of small things myself) hacks for free? Or would they think, hey i can ask $5 for this one, hmm this is bigger, well what the heck, let's ask 25 for this? Would we still have a community that mostly has free hacks?

I know some coders would always be relesing most of their work for free, but what percentage would that be?

Just some things to think about. :D

When what is already happening?

They allow The Geek to advertise his website; through signature just like I am able to do.

Let me just add, with this thread and the "vB Auto Linker banned here?" thread I think The Geek got enough publicity for his paid hack ;)

My input from the other thread.

Have to admit though, hearing Kirby say a directory here may cause him to leave is alarming. Maybe a directory isn't such a good idea if it will cause users to leave in this way - I see him as a valuable asset to this community, together with many other members (who I wouldn't want to see leave).

A coder that would charge 5 dollars for a hack wouldn't charge, but how good is the hack (no disrespect to small hacks). What I am saying is, major hacks such as the Arcade, the CMS could become paid hacks because the authors know they would be able to make some money off of there code.

On the other side. Coders should be able to charge for there work, as they do not owe anything to anyone here. However letting hackers use vB.org as a way to advertise only makes it more appeasing to release it paid hacks since they would have a way to advertise.

you forgot a point here, and a major one in the situation... you mess Commercial and Paid...

Paid scripts are addons, modules, hacks released by vB coders that want to be paid for their job...

Commercial Addons are from companies that expand their capabilities by adding vBulletin as a integrated part, or the opposite...

basically, Commercial stuff is not a single way advertised here... i for one, released a ±userplane addon last month, and nobody was aware of such a tool until i build the small addon for it... that company offer a range of softwares to add features to vBulletin, but are not a single way related to vB.org... they even did not know about the existence of this site the day before i release the addon... so how can they register here and release their addon if they are not informed of the fact ?!

you know, Esvon ?!... one of a big company that produce a range of softwares related to classified and cms... they have a addon to connect to vBulletin users table and share the users database... noone here is informed because Esvon can't advertise... but Esvon are not vB coders, they are a company that provide extra work for vB owners... how these vB owners can be informed of that possibility if Esvon can't advertise on the site where all vBowners go for their addons ?!

this is the way i see this... i don't care about vB coders that want to be paid for their job.. the Services Request forum is there for the ones wanting to be paid... i'm more interested to find more resources in the future... actually, i do my search myself, but 99% of vB owners will not have the time or don't know how to search...

EDIT: and for one, only charge $$ for hacks that will provide profits for the client that request the hack... a simple hack that modify a display or add a functionality don't have to be paid if requested by the community... but i know that a classified system with paid subscriptions would bring profits to the site owner, so i would charge for it... logically... my 2¢ on profits.. lol

And in regard to this, I think a moderation system would be ideal. All feedback or ratings open a 'Feeback Ticket' - a member of vB staff discusses a grievance with the user and evidence is supplied. If the moderator sees the negative feeback as being valid - it can be posted as public. Then similar to how eBay works - the hack author would be able to respond to negative feedback with reasoning/justification.

Just an idea. :)

But I think this thread is more for arguments for an against, than implimentation, so I'll shush now. :)

I think saying that a solution for commercial enhancments would make someone not want to come here is a bit heavy.

Though I totally agree that you wouldnt want a solution that would drive people away from releasing something for free just because they could make a fiver on it - I think that would be a rarity. Regardless - if the quality is there and the demand... who cares? Is it that some peoples time isnt worth anything and others something? I cant see someone charging a fiver for a template change is it has to be hosted, supported, promoted and sold on a seperate site. The headache of all those hoops would be enough to prevent that from happening.
Lets face it, the strongest driving force behind this site will always remain intact and should be. Its not like everyone is going to stop producing FOC stuff. With commercial solutions usually comes FOC solutions of similar ilk.

I think nex's points are some of the best. Hell, I dont know of a tiny fraction of companies that can offer me solutions to enhance my site - which I guess is part of the reason for a request like this.

Oh, and I think the publicity comment was a bit lame. I started this thread on the suggestion of a moderator. I was hoping that thread would get buried rather quickly. This isnt a discussion about me or my work - this is a discussion about offering a much needed solution for Jelsofts customers. ;)

I disagree. Some of the coders here that are charging for hacks got a lot of their coding skills for free on here. And I don't think charging for what they learned for free is any way to pay back what they've gained.

There are many coders on here that put in just as much time coding (and some even more time) free hacks as those that complain "I just can't do it for free anymore".

If they want to charge for their hacks, then they need to do it somewhere else other than a free, learning and sharing site.

How about simply a list called 3rd Party Resources (or something like that) ... commercial coders/designers can submit their URL with a sentence regarding their product.

No rating system.
No feedback.
No politics.
No liability for Jelsoft.
No recommendation implied.
Buyer beware.

You know ... kind of like the real world.

That being said Boofo, maybe Jelsoft should provide a new, seperate site with a directory - keep it away from the free community here at vB.org but link to it from here and vbulletin.com?

i find this comment to be uncalled for to threaten us if we as a community choose to pay for hacks on here or whatever...

this community is no more yours then it is ours. we all have licenses on here and we all pay the costs. to put the staff in a spot of choosing you over us is wrong and if thats your stance on things, who really runs and contributes to this site? the staff or the coders? to me, everyone runs this site. and thats how it should be since we contribute things on here to help out forums, make them look :speechless: and create things that others can use.

if your gunna go cuz a directory or commercial hacks will be implemented on here, then sorry to see you go, but adios.

can we focus on the topic please, not sentiments ?!

Hello everybody,

I'd like to point out that this is an interesting topic to discuss, and I will bring this topic to the attention of the site manager(s) and Jelsoft manager(s). Just so you know.

Please feel free to discuss this further but on a point where posts are on-topic, contributing to the discussion, constructive and that means with arguments and not on a personal level. For that surely will help get an overview and proper feedback on the topic at hand.

Again, interesting and to be honest, worth discussing to get a clear view in the end. We're not ignoring it as Jelsoft, or as vBorg staff. Just letting you know.

agreed ;)

I also agree with the thought that maybe an offsite directory may be the best solution for everyone. vb.org and vb.com can link to it, charge an annual subscription fee (which would make most think twice about submitting work there).
I think an annual fee would be better than a % as with a %, it would only get passed on to the customer 'as is' and the authors have no investment to make in order to sell.

It would be nice however to have the userbase be vb.com or .org just to keep things more interwoven.
I also think that it would be essentail that a valid feedback system is implimented. A user should be able to rate the value for money, functionality and support of the enhancment. In cases of a bad or negative rating, maybe a company response could be in order (like eBay).

Permit me to dream for a minute here... Would even be better if a system could be implimented where someone buys a product from the site, at time of purchase the authors site submits the (i dunno) email address to a vb.com script which posts back an authorisation number that could be used to pass protect the zip or act as a license number or something.
That way authors know their work is going to licensed users, vb knows whats getting sold and only users that purchased can leave feedback.

Maybe Im over thinking it. Its just a thought ;)

Of course rules can be changed, but policy of this forum has been quite cleared since the beginning.

As good as are commercial scripts, i don't think they have their place in vb.org. Just let imagine a new member who has just bought vBulletin (160 dollars). "Cool i'm going to personalize my forum... So i must go to vbulletin.org... Let's see that. Hum, i love that hack : i want it ! Oh sh%^# i must pay. For this one too ! Why do i have to pay for all good hacks ! I can't afford them. If i would have known this, i would have kept working with phpbb.

The idea of a directory should be good, but it would compete with the Hack Of The Month. HOTM is a good system to motivate coders. Create a directory with comments will allow a new way of being motivated. I believe in the "ripple affect" discribed by exasko.

At the begining, i supposed most of hacks are made for coder's personal website. Up to him to decide if he wants to keep it for him or if he wants to to give it to the community. He's got the choice, it's his work.

Now, if he begins to create hacks to sell them, he must do that alone without complaining community doesn't want to support him. At the beginning, it's his decision, not the community's one. And when some originaly free hacks become commercials after an upgrade of vB, don't complain because you have to say goodbye. Some people wouldn't understand and will live this as a treason.

Again sorry for my poor english.

He clearly marked that comment as personal and 'as a user', not as a Staff member, so i would say your response is uncalled for.

He is not claiming that this is his (or the Staff's) community, he is simply stating that he as a person, wouldn't feel in the right place if we would turn into a place like he is afraid of. It is his right (as a normal user) to ventilate his thoughts on this subject.

Never say never, but i doubt a rating/feedback system will ever be implemented. Who should moderate disputes about it, we don't have the time, knowledge or the powers to do so. Don't forget that when money is at stake, things can be played rough. Not to forget possible claims towards Jelsoft.
Same thing, i doubt Jelsoft ever wants to become a party in between a business deal of 2 other people.

i do not like the idea of commercial scripts on this site. as said already i believe it would cause a shift to many free hacks becoming paid and thus the community we have established here will suffer. however the rules on advertising could be lowered for signatures. i think my suggestion of vBulletin approved script is a great idea;)

What if $member was to create a site with a directory that allowed hackers to and submit there hack to the directory. With the site set up, have hackers put a link in there signature here at vBulletin.org as a way to spread the word about the place.

i doubt that a paid directory would give the best platform for advertising commercial/paid services... anyway, profit would be for who ?!

if Jelsoft is interested to have its products delivered to more people (the main goal of all companies), they have to show that their software is expandable beyond the point of their own script.

i'm not interested by the coders that build tools... again, i talk about real commercial systems/integrations etc... a complete banners system, a toplist script, a bingo, whatever... is not a line of code modified inside the forum itself, but a complete independant part... if these softwares can be added to vB itself, why not announce it?!

and for the comparaison with phpBB - useless... most addons and commercial scripts that connect to phpBB or anyother are not free either... if you want to stick with free stuff, you don't go where there is development. or you do the job yourself.

if you visit vb.org to have free stuff, this is not the best way to compliment the work of all coders here anyway... most of them work hard to learn this software and make it better... if they want to work for free, no problem, but many would like to have a living for this, because they want to expand a software that is not even free...

i never had a single client owner of vB that was requesting FREE jobs... they all know that a job is paid to the value of the result... some are even asking if they can be financed to have the work provided... some guys request donations on their sites to be able to pay for some addons... that mean they value the work of the coders... they know that can't have everything for free.

a good alternative would be a "hotscripts.com" - like website, where coders can advertise their releases - not their availability, but releases, and where companies can pay to have a better visibility (banners, icons, top of the lists, etc)... this would be the best situation possible, and no need for Jelsoft to negociate or evaluate the work of each coder...

i don't like the Rating idea to be good anyway... reputation exists on vB and nobody use it... why work on another alternative when the first one is already solid and not used... callback links is the best... a client visit the code repository, visit a coder, buy a script, and if he is happy, click back on the coder's website to the button "vote for me on the repository" ... bam, a vote... no vote == no value usually... (not === btw)

and i suggested something like that earlier this year, having an external site, and this was rejected for a single reason: Jelsoft want to control the visibility of their software, and this is good... internally, i have no problem... a repository of external links at vb.com is good anyway... or a new vb.net (for business on the net only)... ;)

I mentioned Pinnacle Systems earlier - and they should be considered a good/successful business model. They have 3rd party addons to their software, that people can purchase through their software, that they are not liable for and do not support. I think that it is short-sighted business-wise to let some revenue like that slip through their hands, but I am not going to argue the point any further.

As far as the claims that everyone will start charging for every simple template edit that is silly, since the market will bear only what it can support. I don't forsee a lot of smalltime vb hackers opening up their corner lemonade stand with template edits and bb codes- and if the market will support that lemonade stand site for some odd reason then more power to them, but I doubt it will.

Also- any smart business person will still release free stuff through here as a means to educate people about their site.

I don't think anyone is concerned about the small hacks, it's the hacks that are popular that coders could get away with charging.

Everybody works hard on vB. Even beginners. I visit vb.org cause it's a community where help can be asked and given to tune vB. Not because i can download free stuff !!!

It they want to work and make vB as a job, no problem. But the community is not the good place for this in my opinion.


Don't mix up member of a community and customer of a company. That's not the same thing.

So do everything you can to prevent the possability of a commerical idea creeping into a coders head so that you dont have to pay for it? Hear no money, See no Money, Speak no Money :)

This debate is more heated than the 'Tastes Great/Less filling'. The suggestion for a feedback system was to benefit the users.

I would love a system where I could see what the users (who honestly bought the product) thought. Was it worth the money? Was the support good?
Thats one of the things that makes release threads work so well here. Its open feedback! You can quickly tell from feedback on a thread if there are problems, whether its supported or not, what others think... etc. That is worth 10x what the author says about his work.

Well, how about in the case where a prerequisite to becoming a member of the community is to become a customer first :rolleyes: Sure, anyone can sign up but only CUSTOMERS can see the code/files, etc.. It is a community of customers, so it is a bit different... it is not all black/white.

Could you not create this on your website for your customers to fill out after they purchase a hack from you, and done business with you.

Sure, but as a Jelsoft customer going through a directory of 3rd party enhancments... I dont want to see what they say about it... I want to see what the community says about it.

Its not a do-or-die... its just what I would look for when I would browse it.

If the hack is popular, why the hell should the coder not be rewarded for his work?
I mean the reason why I work extremely slow on my RPG is because the only reason for me to do so is to learn new PHP tricks. I'm not getting anything back from this community or any other, nor do I see any donations coming my way.
Besides from a reputation that may land me coding jobs, of course.
But still, a few stray jobs here and there aren't going to buy me much.
Im not saying that by making my RPG paid, I will be using $100 notes as toilet paper and use them for lighting cigars, but it would make the years (I use plural as the hack has passed its 1 year anniversary here at the org) I spent on it worth my while.
(Just for the record, given the fact that Ive publically stated in my installer file aswell as in a previous thread on this forum that my RPG will forever remain free, that is how it shall be. I just used it as an example, as it is one of the most extensive mods on this site.)

I can only speak for myself and a few coding mates from this site I have talked to when I say that free === no motivation.
No, the carebear "sharing is reward enough. Free software FTW!" crap ain't gonna cut it.
I don't like to pay for software (be it $5 or $500) any more than any of you, but I have to look at it from a coder's point of view as well.

*straches head*

From this:
How would you tell that by a directory if the author provides good support?

The sign up system is to avoid piracy (french community is still waiting to be reconize as official to have such a tool... :D). Vb.org does't exist to make the Vbulletin's aftermarket service. The community of customers is on vbulletin official website.

Alright, look at it like this. If all of the vBulletin hacks that were popular over time became all paid hacks this would hurt vBulletin as a company. Because after that happens, vBulletin won't have vBulletin.org to entice new people to purchase the vBulletin software.

See where they are coming from?