vB license agreement
 

In another thread Filburt pointed out that a user could not use vbulletin to display content that was not of Jelsofts liking or that Jelsoft deemed illegal.

I think this is way out of line and unenforecable. It's like saying GM can take your car back if you choose to rob banks with it. There is a such thing as the first amendment and talk of an illegal subject matter or investigation about that subject is not illegal last I checked. The DCMA is a dangerous and illegal piece of legislation that should be challenged regulaly to prove it's illegality. Jelsoft seems to be playing internet police on this one. Just because you put a clause in a contract does not make it enforceable. Lawyers try this regularly to challenge the laws, but good Judges protect our rights as citizens more often then allowing a dangerous precedent circumventing the First amendment. I doubt it's enforceable.

Any comments?

If you are using vBulletin to distribute warez software, or child pornography, then you don't deserve to have a vBulletin Licence;)

It would also be hard for you to argue your point against Jelsoft's agreement, seeing as it is a Registered British Company, and subject to British trading laws - When you are selling an International product, you cannot create one Licencing agreement for one country, which contradicts one for numerous others - If you don't agree with their Licencing agreement, don't purchase vBulletin:p

Satan

he's got a point tho, i can understand jelsoft frowning but in all honesty they shouldn't enforce what a user can or can't talk about. altho the user in question was stupid and should've hidden such forums from guests anyway.

Really? Nothing on the internet or in the real world states that I can't make my move to distribute warez OR child pornography via 'vBulletin' or any products contracted under Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd directly. Jelsoft is trying to play internet police, and that doesn't fly in any court system. What they're trying to do is to claim "rules" that aren't EVEN close to their jurisdiction. Same thing with the hacks (code modifications) off of this very website. No one can enforce me from distributing hacks freely over my website. They aren't even physically OR legally copywritten with any country's Patent/Copyright Office. I could distribute them, it would make me look bad, but I could distribute them LEGALLY.

Now, here we go into another ballpark which many of you are going to argue. But before you do, I'd like to address it. Yes, you can distribute the code which you modified for the website software vBulletin. How? Well, doesn't it say in the license you can't distribute any code of the vBulletin software or the package itself? Yes, it does. However. Remember, when you modified the code, how you weren't able to recieve the help/support/etc originally guaranteed by Jelsoft "because you made modifications"? How it wasn't any longer supported? Yeah. The code that you modified just became yours. It isn't Jelsoft's any longer. For Jelsoft to stand by that contract, they would have to make it so that you couldn't touch OR SEE any of the code. That's how that works. If it was always like Jelsoft had, then anything under PHP scripture would belong to Rasmus Lerdorf and his original partners/developers.

;)

all i will say on this matter is that most of us are grown ups and understand what JS are trying to do, thats not let there software be related to any illegal practices. This would make the company look bad imo. There license may not stand up in a court of law in "some" countries but try and argue it in a court of law...... I mean if your using the software for child pornography or warez then i would love to see anyone win a court case.... :)

Website hosts can scrutinize and void customer contracts if their client decides to dispense adult material or warez on their site. Free hosts like Geocities do it the most.

As far as I'm concerned, a license agreement is the gateway of how a company controls their product (or service) once in the function of a customer. They can set the rules as they like. I can't get into the specific of legal issues, as I'm no law analyst, but I doubt Jelsoft is breaking anything.

Concerning the issue of dispensing your own hacks, Shovel is absolutely correct. Why he addressed it here though, I don't know, because it should already be obvious that you can dispense your own snippets elsewhere as long as they don't contain complete vBulletin files.

They coded a program and they want their program be used in the way they like it.Their program is not hold a monopoly in the market so if they don't like their license agreement, you are free to use a rival program whose license agreement fits better to your demands.

They are not alone in their policy either. Many software vendors put everything they can hold against customers in their license agreements. Many companies are even using these agreements as "weapons". For instance say you purchase 1000 Windows license from Microsoft and spend a lot of money to design all your company's system based on Windows. Then you decide to host your internet site on linux which then angers Microsoft. They pay your 1000 Windows license fee back and ask you to stop using Windows anymore. Since you can't do it, you agree to host your server in a Windows NT enviroment instead of linux or your whole company network will go in jeopardy.

The legal validity of such license agreement items (mostly with respect to consumer laws) is another hot discussion. This discussion is blur either because comments would change according to the law system you are discussing as every country can have a different attitude on this legal issue. The truth is such things are going on everyday in the software market.

Hence all of what you posted, do you still think it is right that because one of your servers runs the Linux operating system, it is quite alright for them to not allow you to run Windows on another one of your servers, after you spent good money on the program and the multiple licensing (for use with more than 1 server)? What you are doing there is not even illegal, let alone voiding any legal agreement.

I can see why Jelsoft does not want their flagship (and probably only) product being used in a way that could contredict the way people look at their company. However, the policy is still wrong. They are not cyber police. We are using their software because we bought it, and other than that, if people are posting warez or child pornography, that agreement is all that they are voiding. Should Jelsoft be responsible? No. Should Jelsoft stop people from doing it? No. Jelsoft can put it somewhere on something that they are not responsible for the sites run by their application.

What happens if you have a board with 200,000 posts a day? It is a computer forum. Unless you have 100 dedicated mods to every forum and a few good super mods, it would be hard to monitor whether some measly guy posted a link that would let them download Photoshop 6 for free, or download some child pornography picture. Is the license agreement voided then?

Sad thing is, I know a few boards who illegally distribute copywritten material and other things, such as child pornography. I would give you a few examples if you want. Why hasn't Jelsoft stopped them from using their product yet? Someone tell me if you want examples of some sites. :p

Jelsoft should not have the right to stop a site that uses vBulletin (that they legally paid the money for) just because it has discrimative material. Enough said. ;)

Note that as the members of this website we aren't "supposed" to distribute the hacks freely on our own site.

Hmmm...
Well we'll let you distribute it, and then take you to court - Both are deemed illegal in the USA, Europe and Australia, and I believe in China, Japan, Africa and Russia, but don't quote me on that:ermm: - I know for a fact that child pornography is illegal outright...

As velocd rightly said - You can only distribute the snippets of code which you created, and nothing more...

Sure we are - We can do what we like with our own modified code ... *cough* TECKWIZARDS.COM */cough* and numerous other sites...

I say again - You distribute it, and we will take you to court;)

They have every right - You agreed to their terms and conditions when you signed up, and if you don't like them, you don't sign up...

Well if you report them, they will take action eventually - You forget how many sites out there run vBulletin:ermm: - They cannot check them all at once you know...:rolleyes:

Jelsoft have the right to revoke your licence - They then have the right to prosecute you if you refuse to remove the vBulletin system from your server... So no - They cannot stop your site, but they can stop your forum... They would let the courts stop your site;)

That is why there is such a thing as the Jelsoft staff being reasonable - They understand that you cannot control every post your members post, but they do expect you to deal with any situation they ask you to - If you have one post with a link to a copy of photopost or photoshop, they aren't going to crucify you - If you have 100 posts with them in, they may take a different attitude...

The point is - You don't like the licence, sell it to me or other people that accept the terms, or shut up with the moaning - Everything you do in life is subject to laws, whether you live in the "land of the free" or not...

Satan

I didn't say it is right and I didn't say it is wrong, I'm just giving the picture from both sides:

* Nearly all software companies are doing this, some with good deeds and some with malicious deeds. The more powerful the product becomes, the more daring the company (thus the license agreement) becomes..

* Some of these agreements are against the law due to consumer protection laws so it is not always "take it or leave it" issue. In many countries consumer laws allows consumers to "take it as law decrees (not the license agreement)".

* It is a discussion with no result because the legal ground is blur in most countries and more importantly internet software issues are usually international and there is no international law concerning such issues. So law systems clash in such disputes.

* The amount of dispute is quite low (license fee) so no one cares to sue anyway.. Neither the software company, nor the consumer.

is some interesting points aired here and its true what is said about the licensing system - i really wonder how many others think the same way.If i buy a car and do a robbery with it does that mean i cant have that same make of car again ?

Also one thing that does me head in - is people associating warezs with child pornography - WHY

ive been on net a few years now and sort of know where to go but in all me time on net i have seen warezs from all points of views - BUT not once and i mean NOT ONCE have i ever come across chil pron so maybe the people who associate it with warezs maybe they the sort to know where to look for it.
Sidenote - I DONT WANT CHILD PRON but be realistic and stop associating it with warez they are 2 different things so all you doing is trying scare tactics on people.

People mention Piracy and then the thread is bombared with child pron posts - Get a life.Next u be telling us all that peodaphiles run warez sites to encourage young uns to download stuff and get private info off them.

What next ?

I figuare I will add this in. Why do you bring this up.

1. Unless Jelsoft as put some code in there program to allow them to look at PMs PMs are pretty private.

2. Also if you really wanted to you could keep Jelsoft out of your forums and still do all that stuff.

I think they have every right to to what they try to do but it is hard to enforce I figuare if a person really wanted to do that with there software they could and get away with it. Unless noppid is thinking he might want to do this I see no reason why everyone just can't except that fact that it is in there.

Lastly in most countries Warze and child Porn is Illegal by itself so if they are going to break one law I don't see them having much trouble breaking the agreement.

I honestly feel it is the consumers right to do as they wish with the scripts they buy.

Would you buy a car then be told your not allowed to use it as a sex mobile? *knows they saved me a lot in hotel costs as a child*

You buy a script and that is that an allowance to legal post it on your site and use it as a community. For any to think that vbulletin is representing that community is only due to their rules on must show their copywrite which I also see as dumb (gm does not make you keep their logo on the car)

Vbulletin and many other company’s over step their bunds but as consumers in a limited market (of quality items) we are forced to bow down and except all their ridiculous rules.

The fact they do now want illegal things done with their software is understandable but the “to their liking” is dumb. Who are they to say what one likes is not fit to use their script. If it is not illegal then vbulletin should have no say in it.

Personally I don't care. The "to their liking" clause has never really been used by them or atleast it has never been used and someone complain about it because they felt it was injust.

I don't have or plan on having any content that would cause the clause in the agreement to use vbulletin to be used against me. I just thought it may have been too broad in it's coverage or intent. But since it's not been used, that we know of, the point is mute.

I was just looking for some points of view on censorship by a product's owner. It would seem that turning such a problem over to the police would get the software out of use. Emailing, PM'ing, or calling the person would not work in most cases and would probably be bad policy, it's not the software makers job to play policeman.

So I think it's fair to say the if the clause is exercised and the issue is not a matter for the police, then it's censorship.

I cannot see why you can compare a car to an online licence - If the car came with the stipulation that if it were abused, it would be taken back, then I can see the connection...

However - vBulletin is considerably cheaper than any decent vehicle, and at the end of the day, whether you use your vB as a child porn and/or warez forum, and are caught, you are liable to prosecution, as you are if you are caught using your car as a pimp-mobile or to getaway from a bank robbery etc...

Satan

Btw, thanks for reading and analyzing my post hellsatan. :)

Just to address the issue of hacks and computer code:

If a person writes a piece of program, or code, or poetry, or story, or lyrics to a song, or music - the work created has copyright which belongs to the creator or author AUTOMATICALLY. This is a common law right.

Registration of this copyright gives protection under LEGISLATION (which offers greater protection) - however, even without registration copyright exists under common law.

Please read up on intellectual property laws before making untrue statements like that. If you distribute the copyright works of another person without the author's express or implied permission, you are then breaching copyright and can be sued for damages.

Basically. Its renting in a way. Your renting the liscense, as your getting updates. Remember at car places you only get "updates" if your in a contract.

Its all above board.

We're talking about the internet here Erwin. This is a very large gray area for the courts. Second of all, in what ways are they a copyright to the members? By screenname? Really, because it so happens that there are plenty of duplicates here. Anyone can say that they are hellsatan or Dalius and say that it is indeed their "property". How would that be argued in court? To say that the work is a copyright of the writer, the writer would have to produce their real identity (i.e. whole name, etc.). I'm not claiming any untrue indictations, only valid statements.

so why compare warezs with child pronography

both may be illegal but aint loads of things - and adding something as sick as child pron is seen as associating all people who download warezs with the same brush as pedo`s.

End of day do we really care about the agreement cause i will be honest and will admit i aint never read it and i dont ever read any.I dont see warezs talked about on any boards but even if i did i would`nt report it as its my choice to be or not be a member of that board.freedom of speech is still available and people can go elsewhere to do it simple as.

Another thing where in the vbull license is the clause where it says One will become a Vbull Police officer as considering the amount of people grassing up other people in this section you would think there was.

Now u proberly thinking ive got an attitude but i aint - its very rare i use me comp these days but to come on here to grab the occasional hack or even get help is very good and worth the fee alone in my opinion but we all know warezs exist but when i see posts tarring warezs and pedos together then i gotta reply as its total bull++++.
Vb.org is a place to discuss hacks and as such should be left that way.The discussion of warezs and peoples opinion to them is an never ending debate and no thread or post will deter people from the path of downloading somehthing illegal so basically the subject should be dropped.

I don't know what posts you have been reading, but I never compared warez to child pornography:rolleyes:

I don't recall connecting the two either - I simply mentioned them both...:rolleyes:

So just because stealing is illegal, we should ignore it because there are lots of other things which are illegal? Before you say it, that is the logic you are suggesting...:rolleyes:

I care about the agreement - So should you - You are meant to have read it before you sign up:ermm:

I recall no such clause - Try stating fact, not fiction:rolleyes:

I say again - I never linked the two, other than mentioning them both in the same post - I put forward two theoretical statements:

Killing Dogs is bad
Having sex with girls under the age of 16 is illegal

By your own logic, I am saying that people who kill dogs have sex with girls under 16? No? Well I never said warez and child pornography were connected...:rolleyes:

I take a quote from my post:

Notice the or in that sentence?:rolleyes:

We should be aware of warez, as ignorance only makes you indirectly support it...

At the end of the day, the vBulletin Licence Agreement is just that - An Agreement - If you don't like it, don't agree to it, and sell your licences to someone who is happy to accept it, and who knows they are never going to do something illegal, which as far as I can see, would be the only reason a vBulletin Licence would be revoked for...

Satan

My real name is known to alot of hackers and staff here, and I am not worried about someone trying to claim my work is their's - I have documentation, email accounts, forum accounts, licences and paperwork as well as the original code in my posession, so unless I tried to rip myself off, I doubt anyone else could prove they were me...

You are snatching at straws - I know I am hellsatan, and anyone with any sense would know I am hellsatan...

If I want to remove my hacks from vBulletin.org, then I shall:p

Satan

Valid statements? Talk to any IP or internet lawyer, and they will explain to you why you are wrong and show you the case law and legislation. I do not have the time nor the wish to that. :)

Same. So I guess we'll leave it there. Don't feel like arguing any more. :p Girlfriend is over. ;)

Given the choice between talking about copyright and spending time with your girlfriend... I know what I'd choose! ;)

Talking about copyrighting your girlfriend:p

Satan