The war as begun..
 

It has begun.

Bush is getting ready to speak at 10:15 pm est time. We have already started bombing iraq.

Time of Deliverance...

You beat me to it, Loo. :)

Looks like the time has come. It's sad, and I hope all's well that ends well. But I stand by Bush, Blair, and the rest of the coalition for global peace and safety.

There he is.. he better have something good to say. I'm not totally enthusiastic about this war..

He dident say anything that wasent said before, Not wroth anyones time IMO.

Let the games begin. :D

I don't think it's a very funny matter. War, by definition, means killings and death.

I've merged the 2 war-related threads. :)

I don't think it's funny either, but they've talked about war for how many months now? They should stop pussy footing around and get on with it.

Did anyone just watch the monster (Saddam) speak?

I missed it. What did he have to say? (As if it will do any good now).

Not much, infact they are saying it wasent even live, but just a tape.

bleh, war is pointless, it never solves anything in the end

all those mothers and kids dying just because one's
election was due to oil companies :(.....

don't get me wrong i'm a peacefull frenchie, but i'm ashamed
of chirac's position.

but everyone knows that war never solved anything :(...
remember vietnam, algeria (for us frenchies), mogadiscio,
kossovo, afghanistan.... what is the benefit of war ? look
more closely and you will understand that the sole benefit
of those wars is geostrategic and economical.

And us, the people, we are just here to watch on tv or if
we are not lucky enough to live in the right country, to receive
the bombs on our house...

I am very very sad. And i hate all those mediatic lies that we
are given by the big companys which owns the medias :(.


ps:sorry to be so french on that one :p

War is never pointless. It is always a last resort. We have all that we have because of war and what it accomplishes. Wars have been around since the beginning or time and they will always be around. Agree with them or not, that's the way it is. You can only talk things out so long and as long as both sides are willing. Saddam gave that up a long time ago. I'm surprised we waited this long to go after him. We are the only chance the Iraqi people have now. It is either us or continuing genocide from Saddam.

For myself i think that war in our history is what has
made us progress so slowly on the path of being
a united humanity...

Look at all those knowledges destroyed by wars in our history !!

Know that bagdad is the first city of all human history, that
bagdad has seen the first laws in all human history.

I think that the real last resort is peace and friendship
between people :)...

Anyway, i'm not against that war precisely, i'm against all
kind of violence. And i'll never admit that war has a point.
War destroys, even if it frees a people from a monster,
but are there no other monsters on earth as we are talking ?
come on dont be blind on the sole reason for that war : OIL !

the 'genocide' saddam perpetrated against the kurd people
has been perpetrated because of the first gulf war... So on
that one too war had no point... ah yes i know the point
of that one, koweiti were liberated... koweit a nice democracy
where philippin girls get raped in prisons !!

once again dont get me wrong, i'm not on the side of chirac,
he is only adopting that opinion out of interests. I'm on my
side, the side of democracy... and i'm sad to say that, but
bush represents my side. And what makes my side better is
that people like me can be on that side and still say that
war is wrong.

One day, we will all live in peace and harmony ;) and that day
you'll know that nothing ever came out of war but destruction ;)

We had the Australian PM on an Adress to the nation too, he's trying to hard to convince Australia what he's doing with supporting American is correct, and frankly I think it's not working.

You missed WWI, WW2, where we saved thousands of lives.

@Keptic: well saving thousands of liefe by killing othere thousands of lives....

Well i knew that day would come, so i'm really not surprised, it's just intresting to see how people react on this theme, and even see changings of my owns opinion ...

As Boofo said, without war, the humanity would be in the stone age. War is the father of all things, you know that quote.
It's sad but it's true. Without the WWI we wouldn't be able to flight to america on one day and to japan the other day, at least not that fast.

i can understand that history is not the strong
part of the vb.org members ;)...

But some things need to be corrected (friendly :))..

What about saving lives during WWII... You are talking about
hiroshima's and nagasaki's inhabitants i suppose ?
no ? errr... maybe about US of A supporting chang kai check's
exactions in china which leaded to the people blindly supporting
Mao ts? doung and his cultural liberation (more than 60 Million
deaths, never equaled).

I admit that sometimes war has accelerated things and scientists
were stressed to unleash new technologies more quickly during
war than in peacefull time... but anyway, technologies are
meant to evolve, and war or not war, sorry xenon, but we
were meant to fly faster and faster.

But talking about war as something which survivors would
benefit makes me sick. War means killing, and killing means
deaths. And a dead body cannot benefit anything.

Apart from being french, my grand parents were born in armenia,
and believe me, all my childhood was filled with war stories,
deportation stories, people having no rules because the
only rules they could follow was 'try to stay alive'...

War never brought anything positive to humanity !!


But, i still know where my side is. Because war is only that
a side against another side :(...

Peace and love (i hope i'm not trolling to much for vb.org administrative team ;)).

Just curious here. Have you ever been in a War or served your country in the military?

we had in france a "military service" as it was called :
1 year serving ou country with weapons.

I never did it, out of convictions. As i sayed i am a pacifist.

A weapon is made to kill, and i will never train to kill, life is
to beautifull :).

I agree, life is beautiful. And I appreciate it even more after serving my country in the military. But there is not a pacifist alive that can make me believe if they were being shot at and a gun was nearby, that they wouldn't pick it up and use it to defend themselves. It's easy to sit back and SAY what you would do, but another thing to do it when put to the test. I believe I am a better man for all that I've done through, good and bad. And war was just one of those things. I like being free and not having to worry about being shot at in my sleep or standing in line for scraps of food for my kids. And in order to keep my kids and my wife safe and free, I am willing to go to war, if that's what it takes, to keep things like Sept. 11th from happening all over again. Next time, it could be in my neighborhood. Like it or not, as Xenon and I pointed out, war is an act of nature. It is in all of us, at one time or another. The difference is that I'm one of those that is willing to lay it all on the line so my family and yours can hold onto the ideals we have fought to keep for so long. When it comes to my family, my personal ideals have to take a back seat. ;)

ok, when you admit here that history isn't your strength it's ok :)

hmm you should look at the evolves a bit more. of course without the WWI and two we could be able to flight, but not as fast as we can now. Also there was a time named the cold war (hope it's correct translated ;)) yeah, this time leds into the space and to the moon. But it was a war.

The human nature is bad, you can't say anything against. If it would be different i'd appreciate, but it isn't.
Without war the humanity would have stagnated. Just the part of "have to survive" and "be better than my neighbour" led to advances, and to our currently state of knowledge.

Or to bring up another example. The communism didn't fail because it was a bad system. No, the system is theoretically very good, but it failed because of the humans. Humans need the fight.
It's sad but true.

it seems many things which do not have anything in
common are in what you say.

Pacifism does not mean being inactive. Going to a front
whatever front it may be whith your own words as your
only weapon and comming back with a victory is what i call
helping my wife and girls to live in a less dangerous world.

I can fight for freedom, i can fight for the lives of the ones i care
for, i can fight for... err.... even nothing, pacifists too are stupid
sometimes ;).

But fighting and War are not the same thing ! War is inhuman
war is an enormous lie, war is where you fight without really
knowing why...

If i had to live what my grand parents lived, i know i would
be as brave as they tought me. But the iraqi case is something
else : no one can say for sure that hussein is related in any
way to the 11th of september's tragedy.

And for the acts of nature, i agree with you. Sure war is
an act of nature, stupidity too, even rape... But since we
human beings rule that poor earth, maybe we could think
a little bit further and try to use our little trip on this earth
to stop being so 'natural' and to prepare for our kids
an earth where US would not create more than 40% of
the global polution for less than 2% of the population.
An earth where everything wouldn't be doomed since US
refused to sign the kyoto 'accord' (dont know the english word).

All is not white all is not black, but death is always the end,
and i dont want to be the one who kills.



~~edit~~
@ xenon : you are playing with words there ;), 'cold war' is
not what we are calling a war in that thread... Cold war is
the longest peacefull period of the 20th century, and as you
pointed, it is in that time that man put his foot on the moon.
So you gave me an argument : it is not war that makes science
go faster, it is only the will of a group to be better than the other.
And do you think it can't happen in peacefull time ? I think
it does happen and more often than in time of war


Once again peace and love to all and to the ones you care for :)...

[high]* p0s3id0n is going to smoke a joint if you continue ;)[/high]

:) I disagree strongly that "war is inhuman". Rather, I think 'war' is inherint within the human race. I don't think that war is where you fight without really knowing why. I think that in some instances in the history of the humans, this has been the case where militaries may have been fighting for unjust causes, perhaps not even knowing the real reason behind the war. But I think it's very clear in this day and age exactly why we, the allies of a peaceful global community, are declaring war. There is a threat that has made itself known and threatened the free people - both Iraq's own citizens and those in other countries such as threats to America. This is a very real concern. After months of trying the peaceful route, war really has become a last resort of sorts.

And while I don't know much about the cold war, I'm don't really agree that it was a "peacefull time" when literally millions of people lived in fear every day that they would be bombed. I couldn't imagine the stress of growing up and learning to "duck and cover" in school. But again, this isn't my strong subject, just a random personal opinion. :)


*passes a joint for p0s3id0n in respect for differences of opinion*

Just at college right now - looking forward to reading the news when i get home :)

- miSt

War suX...

But thats life...

All I will do is not it down, and vote for someone other than Blair in the next election:)

Satan

The fighting spirit is inherent of the human race, fighting to
stay alive first, to be the best after, then to dominate the
weaks.

But war is not a fight where the goals are in front of you,
where you can hit your enemy and come back home with
a torn wrist.

War is all a nation with all its people blinded by vast mediatic
lies hating without having ever met them another nation,
war is when a soldier becomes nothing more than a dot on
a battle fields, even if he's been a talented artist in real life,
or a loving daddy, or the two ;). war is when you kill people
that you could have loved in other circumstances. That is where
war is where you fight without knowing why.[/quote]
and it makes me really sad, but when it comes to choosing
a side, i'm with G Bush, because i'm not as dumb as chirac,
but i'm very sad.

My daughter just told me while we were eating :
"why do thet hurt people ? it's stupid to hurt people.
If i was there i'd tell them that hurting people makes
them sad." lea
yes, but however stressfull environement it was, it was
peacefull ;) and science made a great leap during that time
as it did during world wars.

i knew we had more in common than economical interests ;)

ppl r being killed...