Fair play and Business
 

Hello,

Latelly DBTech released the mod Copyright Managment which replaces their copyright link (links if you're using more of their mods) with a single line global copyright appearing in all pages.

With a first eye this is a good move as it reduces the needing space to list all of their copyrights (if you're using more than one mod). The problem starts from the point that this copyright is global, which means that is appearing in all pages regardless if that page is powered from their mods or not.

And here comes the question. Do you think that this is a fair play to the other coders? I'll not talk if it is legal or not as I'm not a lawyer. Also the laws are so complicated that nobody can say "yes" or "not". So I'm focusing only to the fair play.

And here is a list of my thoughts. Let's get as example that I'm using their vbQuizz and vbCredits system and finally I'm adding this mod to merge the 2 copyright lines in a single one.

1. According to which logic pages like Classifieds, Auctions, Reviews, Extrapages must include his copyright? Is there anything from his mods on this page that gives the right to show their copyright there?
2. They use the phrase "Site powered by vBulletin Mods & Addons from DragonByte Technologies Ltd. (Details)" which is very general. Any unexperiant visitor will thinks that the Classifieds page that he is viewing is their product. "Site powered..." means the full site. Why they didn't used a more fair phrase like "Some sections of this site is powered..."?
3. You must click on the Details to understand that this page is not their work. By the way. When submitting a mod there is an option to check if you're pulling content from 3nd party sites. This "External" option is unchecked, so users maybe don't know that at that time you exchange data with their site.

When I complain for it I got many replies from different users. Supporting or not my post. Actually who didn't support my post was the Author and his friends. I'll focus on some only points:

1. "Does not prohibited by vB.org rules": Sure. Because 10 years in this site never seen before such action. There were coders (like Zachery who didn't even added their copyright. I do believe him). All the rest coders were putting their copyright only on their pages. So its normal that such a rule does not exists. Because never had such similar before. And rules are for changing as all rules, as all laws are updating from time to time to cover all new issues.
2. I read many times "Nobody prohibits you (me) to add your copyright in all pages". Perfect. So a site which is using their mods, my mods, and another 10 other mods will has a footer with 10+ lines of copyrights. Great :)
3. You're (me) free to add your own rules in your mods as you're not breaking vb.org rules. Great again. So, as it does not also prohibited by vb.org rules, I can release new versions which will not works if they found in the site this mod installed?

What I know is that a community must has except the normal terms of use and some "fair play" terms. Otherwise, the financial crisis around the world, will lead in unfair actions. Because I can bet (and anybody can understand it), that this mod, released not as a way to help the users, but as a way to be visible in all pages. Yes, I do agree that they have a plethora of mods, and I congratulate them, but 95% of their mod are working only in forum pages. And on now days most sites have much more other pages than just forums.

As a final note. In my opinion this mod brakes the fair play and offcourse I'll do the same (if not worst). What do you think about?

Thank you for your time. By the way give a vote to the poll. Maybe it will be a reason for vb.org to update their terms.

Christos Teriakis
aka ChrisTERiS

Flawed polls are flawed.

I think its perfectly fine for any addon author to decide how and when their copyright is displayed on whatever pages they want it to be displayed on so forth those requirements are outlined in the addon thread, or license.

vBulletin.org is a place to share addons for free, if we start placing too many more restrictions, or requirements on addons, we'll only chase more people away.

This is what I want to check. If the users support your opinion for me should be the best.

Years ago I downloaded and used a Forex mod for VB 3.x that displayed the various Stock Market indexes on forum home, Eventually I noticed the copyright notice appeared on every page. I didn't like it so I uninstalled the mod. I've never used another mod since that insists on global copyrights. Problem solved.

You don't have to install that mod. It's up to you. It's a decision you make - several copyrights only on some pages versus one copyright on all pages.

To clarify something. I'm talking as coder and not as user. Yes, if I was a user I had to decide which of them fits better for me.

But as a coder I found it unfair:
1.- The meaning is very general. Site is is powered by vB mods by DBTech. So, an average visitot will thinks that my Classifieds, or my Reviews etc etc, is his work.
2.- If its a user decision ...hmmm.... so-so....

--------------- Added 07 Jun 2013 at 00:27 ---------------

And because I seen that most moderators already replied, can you tell me if I've the right, according to the site's terms, to release tomorrow new versions of my mods making them incombatible with this addon? Is there any term prohibited it? For global copyright I'm not asking, as all of you wrote that is something that depends on coder's decision, so I'm in.

Edited: By saying incombatible I mean that my mods will not work, not the others. And offcourse should be big notification to potential users for this. And let's them decide what they want, on the same way that they'll decide if they need one global line or many.

Its a coders choice to do, or not do, whatever the hell they want with their own code.

Its an end users choice to use the software, abide by its terms, or not use the software at all.

I don't know why you're so up in arms over something you literally will never have control of ever.

Because I want them as a guarantee. Have bad experiance in the past believe me. Calorie is not here any more, but still have (even after 5 years) her email. Different things she wrote me on her emails, different thinks she did when I follown her "instructions".

Calorie is just fine, they decided to stop being involved here (and vBulletin/internet in general). That is their choice. I spent a lot of time working on them.

Its up to every coder to do what they want with their code.

First off, I did not vote in this poll because it is one sided, not enough options to choose from.

Now, some of DBTech's mods do run on all pages and some have the potential to, depending on what settings you choose. So with the Copyright Management mod, it just condenses the footer, and as a side affect, shows on all pages. In order to not have this, the conditional you would have to write, would look like a novel. If any one of these 30+ options are true, then display the copyright on all pages, but only if this or that is enabled bla, bla, bla.

So as a end user I have the choice.

• Use the Copyright Management mod, and see their copyright on all my pages.
• Don't use the Copyright Management, and have my footer on some of my pages look like a Christmas list.
• Purchase the branding free for the mods I am using.
• Purchase the Global Branding free, which works for all their mods.
• Don't use any of their mods. (Which will never happen, as their stuff is top notch, and the support is at the highest level)

Yes you as a coder, can code your mods to not work if X product is installed, or if any mod from X developer is installed on a users system, but IMO that is just plain silly. With the customer base that DBTech has you could potentially alienate your self with alot of people, and loose customers yourself. It may work out for you, cause that in it's own has the potential for less people using your mods, thus cutting down on your support time.

I for one would never install a mod that was explicitly coded to not work if another mod(s) was on my system.

This statement is 100% untrue.

The Copyright Management mod was created as there were a multitude of requests on their site, to help out the users that could not afford to purchase the branding free for the mods. Also, you are the first person in over a year to express concerns about this. The mod has many users using it, and they have no issues with the basic functionality of the mod, and how it displays the copyright on all pages.

What DBTech do is entirely up to them, not us, or anyone else. :)

It has nothing to do with our terms and conditions
We dont impose rules on such things, as its not our place to do so.

If you dont like it, you dont use the mods, its really that simple. :D

Never said something bad for their products or services. Actually when I was in need to use a Quizz mod latelly, I bought it from them. I'm talking for the specific mod.


Its not more than 2 years that Adam (if I remember well his name) from ForumCoding.com wrote me the same as a way to advertise/release my mods on his site. Where is Adam now, where is forumcoding.com and where are his 15,000 Members?

"Customers of me": Have I wrote anywhere that I'm looking for customers? Only in the last week I reject 3 offers for custom work (PMs are available as proof), as I don't have free time anymore. If I had time and I wanted to have profit from my coding work why to give 100% for free all my mods to another coder? Didn't asked even a single cent for them (and I'm talking for almost 20 mods). $0 !!.
So let theory out. It's not about lost of money, is not about lost of customers. Is just because I felt (and still feeling like this), that someone pushes me .... Sorry but really don't have the vocabulary to explain my feelings....

This depends on what sections are most important for your in your site. Already have 3 sites in my mind which are using the Copyright Manager, but on the same time they're using My Classifieds, Auctions and Reviews. I'm curious to see what they'll decide to do.

For what it's worth my view would be that the copyright chould only appear on pages that the mod actually works on, so if on your classifieds purchasing is done through vbcredits or vbcredits are earned when using classifieds then yes the copyright should show, if it has absolutely nothing to do with it (bear in mind some mods work stats out based on number of posts, time on site (which would include browsing classifieds)...etc) then it should not show.

As you've said, you are a coder, simply add conditions for the copyright not to show on your work if as i said above it does not interact with it at all.

Nope. None of my mods inteacts or works in conjuction with any other mod. Are 100% standalone scripts. I'm not even using vB forum engine (thread style mods). So the only copyright that is acceptable in my pages are vBulletin as I'm using the enviropment, and the designer's copyright if the site is using any custom style.

Well in that case i feel that the copyright for other products shouldn't be there, however there is one thing you need to consider, the mod is a "Copyright Manager" does it state that it only manages their copyright or all of the copyrights in the footer? if it doesn't state that it only manages it's own then i'm afraid they are within their rights to show the copyright on all pages for the copyright manager, even if you have your own copyright in the footer the mod will "manage" it and there for take credit for that.

The mod is manging only their copyrights. Nothing else. What makes it frustating is not so much the copyright message, but what the text it says. To be more clear. A text like "Powered from vBQuizz, vBCredits from DragonByte Tech", maybe will be acceptable as it states clearly the mod names. But saying "Site is powered by vBulletin AddOns and Modules from ....", for me is counting as unfair competition as many visitors can think that even the Classifieds mod is their work.

The mod states that it manages all their copyrights, and it will be shown on all pages.

I can see your point Christos, but like I have said, it should be up to the users, if they want to install the Copyright Management mod, and any other mod released here. I do not feel it should be up to you to make your mods not work if it is installed. With that said, you are completely within your rights to do so, and if that is what you feel you must do then, by all means, do it.

If their mod did not say if shows the copyright on all pages, and it did, I would have a problem with it.

Again, I am not here to argue with you, I am just expressing my opinion. I for one would not like to see your mods not work if a product was installed on a site, you do some really good work, as does DBTech, it would be a shame to not be able to use both developers mods on a site. Also doing so may encourage other developers to do something similar with their mods, if the mod is from a developer they don't like. So in theory, you could have a developer say if any of DBT's, Paul's, Joe's or Christos' mods are on the site, don't run theirs. I know it probably would never happen, but the potential is there.

But in any case, if you feel you must, then go for it, I may not agree with your decision, but it is your mod, and you can do with it as you wish, but I would defend to death, your right to do so, even if I did not agree with it.

In no way I'm arguing (if I wrote correct) with you, I'm also not upset with anybody here. Let's say that is a bit of combination of different culture and, even more, my stability to some rules. Life rules... Moral rules...

As I know "Fair play" is a saying founded in United Kingdom. Till now I knew that new generation in Greece have lost the meaning of some Greek words (eg what really means respection, what means humanity etc etc). Now I'm seeing that is not only something happens in Greece. Seems that when there is "Business" in the game, there is no fair play.

As for me:
1.- For sure I'll not follow them by adding a global copyright. Should be childish, and there are several decades ago that I stoped being a child.
2.- For sure any change in my code will not effect earlier versions of my mods. I mean that I'll never release a version which will only prevents the mod to works if that mod is installed.
3.- I had in mind to release mods similar to their mods for free. Actually mods which will has as features only the features that they count as PRO. For this reason I already coded a PM Utilities mod. Bad for me, I've some moral rules that prohibit me for doing something like this.

Pitty that I don't have a rich vocabulary in English to be able to express my feelings. Most readers have thought that I'm talking as a user and they said to avoid using it. Some others said that is not illegal, while I never said that it is.

So the only that left out to me is to use a simple example. I'm feeling like that I've a Bakery and someone came infront of my entrance (but looking at the street) keeping in hand a sign "The best bread on the Bakery on the next street". Is not illegal, but is it fair?

Anyway..... Business kills anything... Money matters....

Quoting Voltaire? :)

Not sure where all this is headed now you are talking from a coder's perspective instead of a user's ... I may not like the way the copyright mod redirects but that is my choice not to put it in i have voiced my opinion to dragonbyte and they gave me an ans which is fine by me but at least i have a choice ...

Dragonbyte listened to there customers and gave them a option to the branding free which is quite expensive .. so for a free mod one of many for them which you as a coder should understand takes free time away from their normal lives i dont see how they are doing anything illegal as was said and again like i did i chose not to install it and you can too ...

i also have other choices here most coders here not all choose to mark their mods as un-supported but in reality they are as i have recently learned because they dont want end users asking them every five min or half hour ect if they can fix this or that due to there time management they want time to ans that i guess ... well its my choice not to install the mods that are marked as such

so when you get down to it your poll serves no purpose it is one sided at the end of the day you are going to go your way and dragonbye is going to go theirs cause as was said the coders that post including you can do as they want in there own thread ...imo i wouldnt think you would want other coders to enter your support thread and tell you what they thought of your mod and disrupt the supporting of the member base i for one want to thank all the coders for giving up their time and giving us free mods so we can better our forums...i might not agree on things that happen here but choices is what we all have thats what makes this community a great place to be apart of

i hope we can put this thread to bed and get on to what is important ...

Great post!

For me is important. If its not important for you, feel free to continue to the next thread. I don't think that I sent a policeman to bring you with handcuffs. There are 100's threads on this site, very important for the posters, but unimportant for me. Never remember myself to had participate to those threads asking them to send'em in the bed, just because were not important for me.

And because they talked for free time that I spent. Yes, they spent. But they're spending free times max 3 years ago. I'm spending my free time since October 2006 when I released my first mod. And believe me (in total) I have released more than them.

As for the given support. It's true that the old days I was loosing my patience very often and I was droping my mods to Graveyard. But last 3 years none mod left behind unsupported. Only for special reasons (eg if I gave it to someone else) I was stopping. But even in these cases, if you try to give a look at the threads of my old microSUPPORT and microCART you'll see that I gave support more often than the new author.

So as a final line. Goto my current mods and chekc the average responce time. In normal hours (08:00am-22:00pm GMT+3) the average response time is less than 1 hour. Everyday including weekends and holidays. Also try to count how many updates with new features I released in just one month. Never heart that other coders are doing it. They release a version and then everything new, any new user request is marked as "PRO version". Go and check it. I'm not saying anything... you'll read what the users are saying there.

Just to clarify, in the case of DBTech, every significant update we release has at least a 60/40 Lite/Pro split in features.

How you or other coders choose to do things when you release PRO mods is another matter of course :)

Iain

I was one of the first to vote in the poll, but debated on adding a reply until now.

I can only describe the way I'm doing the copyrights, I can't influence how other people do them..

Most copyrights are displayed only on pages produced by the add-on/mod.

Exceptions to that would be if a standard vB page has been heavily modified to display content that wouldn't normally be displayed (IE: the modifcation system). Then the copyright would also be displayed on forumdisplay and showthread pages.

I do not display a copyright if all a mod does is add information to the 'What's Going On' portion of the main page (IE: Style Statistics or Forum Home Statistics).

Neither do I display a copyright if on the surface there are only minor differences between a standard vB page and the same page with my mod (IE: Thread Status System).

So I guess it boils down to what the mod does. If it's relatively minor, there's no copyright. If it adds major pages or changes pages in a major way, then there is a copyright on those pages.

You're centuries ago. First of all I never released LITE/PRO in the meaning having the PRO version ready, then cutting some features to release the LITE.

For 100% of more than 50 mods that I released in total since Oct 2006, the original release had 100% of the features. Then, in case that a mod was popular I started added features to release a PRO version. But never...never... never on the date of the initial release was a PRO version ready. Only once happens, but it was a case that I re-released a mod.

90% of the user requests for adding new features were always accepted and included in the "LITE" version. For example go and check the first 20-30 pages of microCART. You'll find around 50 request of adding new features. Same for microCLASSIFIEDS. And all of them have included for free.

In now days. Check SL Classifieds, SL Reviews and SL Auctions. There is no PRO version. Only for Classifieds there is a greatful version to those who have paid for copyright removal. But these additions are not important. All the important features are including by default. So NO Lite versions. Being there, especially in Classifieds count the requests for new features. ALL have been included. In less than a month a released more than 15+ versions with NEW features.

So, don't compare me with others. There is NONE other coder having released so many updates for his mod. My life's biggest problem (my real life including), is that I can't say No when someone asks me a favor. That's was my catastrophy. Believe me or not if someone asks me 10 Euros and I have only 5 Euros in my pocket, I'll give him the 5 Euros and I'll look to borrow another 5 Euros so I can give him 10 Euros as he asked for. You think that it's a lie? I wished to be. But unfortunatelly this is the was that I was always acting in my life.

There are dozens users here who can read this post (exact this one), who know very well that when they sent me PMs saying "I need this mod but I don't have money to buy it", I was sending it for free no second thought. But even if there was no money issue, anytime that someone asked any of my mod, I was always giving it for free. I'm not money oriented person my dear. I was never been, and I'll never be in the future. I count to moral values and not to money. Only the fact that I never tried to sell my old work can prove it. The only that I was trying to find is to give them to someone who can continue upgrading them. Latelly I gave 15+ mods to someone else. Didn't asked a single cent.

After all hope that you got my meaning. This thread is not a money issue. Actually I don't care so much for copyrights, that's why in my mod's settings I've a switch to turn it off.

edit: never mind, I've changed my mind and decided to stay out of it.

No.... First of all. I'm not against DragonByte as company or as a team of coders. I'm against the specific mod only. I don't count as fair (first priority) or as logic (second priority) to display a global copyright message (with so general meaning) in pages that have nothing to do with any of his product. Once more I'll say. Why a page powered by my Classifieds mod, which only uses the vB usergroup permissions and vB phrases, can have their copyright?

OK, yes, I understand that you don't like the way that mod works.

...but I guess I got confused because we're discussing who's been here longer, who has released more mods, pro vs. lite versions, who provides better support, etc, and I don't see how any of that has anything to do with the copyright mod.

Thank you. At least someone understand that I'm not spending my time writing so much to money, or to offend anybody. Actually the fact that I'm writing so much again and again can prove how much preasure I got inside from this issue, and trying to explose it by writting otherwise I'll get for sure a head strike.

I know that many readers, even if they share my thoughts, can't understand why I'm giving so much attention. I know it. Everything is about different culture without to say that my culture is the right one. But I grewup with these moral values and is difficult to change the way that I'm thinking/acting on my 57 of my age.

--------------- Added [DATE]1370624214[/DATE] at [TIME]1370624214[/TIME] ---------------

I just replied to Iain on what other coders (included me) did about LITE/PRO versions. Somehow it was out off topic but as long as he asked it, I didn't like to appear that I ignored him.

Agreed, i'm not sure what any of this has to do with a copyright mod:

Especially

Which is just an out and out lie designed to make us look bad and as nothing to do with copyright.

Of course English is not Christos' first language, so if by "They" he was referring to some other coder i'd be interested to know who that was :)

Actually you brought it up (in the post I quoted above), I simply replied to you because your wording, accidental or not, was implying something completely false about DragonByte Tech and I felt compelled to correct this 'error'.

Iain

I think the only way to get out of this off topic money vs no money discussion is to self police ourselves and just stop that discussion.

I also think that everyone can agree that a long list of copyrights on the main page for vB does not look good and isn't appealing to the owners/admins of sites. However, it is still up to the individual coder where they put their copyright (if any).

The extremely unfortunate part of where the copyright is placed is actually a moot point. We all know those copyrights are routinely removed by end users without regard to the effort a coder has placed in creating the add-on/mod.

@Iain
------
Yes, my English is poor. Very poor. But I'm pround that even this low level English I teached them myself. 40-45 years ago where I was in high school and being a child of a 5 children family, there were no money for studying English. I learned English on the same time that I learned coding. I had the English book for programming, read it, then using my vocabulary I was trying to understand what on heck that "locate" means and then I was testing the code in my PC. That's why I'm pround. Because I got all my education just by reading books. Never studied more than hight school and not because I didn't wanted it.

So, as a lat step to drop the masks, and see if it's true what you wrote, that you can't modify the code to exclude the pages powered by my mods. Here is the code. As you can see it's just 4 lines of code. Check the validity of this code, then check (if your don't count my word), that my mods have nothing to do with other mods and/or vB forum engine, and finally add this code to you mod. If you really believe in fair play, you can do it.

I'm not placing my terms as you said. I'm just offering a solution in case that you believe in fair play, in case that you're really gentleman with the good meaning of these words which are English words using worldwide as standard for their meaning.
This code will hides your copyright from my Classifieds, Auctions and Reviews pages. It will appears in all other pages.

--------------- Added [DATE]1370627702[/DATE] at [TIME]1370627702[/TIME] ---------------

I can say that latelly things are goind better in vb.org in 2 ways:

1. Less users are removing the copyright
2. Much less users are rating your mod as Terrible before even finish your post:D. It was impossible to believe what happening a couple of years ago. Without any download you were founding a 1 star rating.:cool:

Words like "ads" and "reviews" could potentially cause that script to remove our copyright from many, MANY unintended pages, and could even cause issue with our OWN ad (and upcoming review) mod.

In addition we would have to put a script like that in all of our hundred or so mods. Then if another coder requested it, we would have to make a script for HIS mods as well, because it wouldn't be fair to only do it for YOUR mods.

Before long we would have scripts trying to cover dozens of mods having to be applied, tested and added to about a hundred mods.

Then we need to update that any time you, or someone else, makes a new mod. Which means editing the files and uploading the new files on about a hundred mods, on several sites.

All of this so one person, you, doesn't have to see our copyright, which the user CHOSE to have there, on a page generated by your mod.

That doesn't seem remotely proportional to me and it strikes me as an extremely unreasonable request. You are asking us to spend/risk a significant amount of time and money, not to improve our mods for the USERS or CUSTOMERS, but to improve them for YOU.

We would much rather take that time and effort and redirect it into continuing to make great, free mods for the users here on vBulletin.org, and i'm sure most people would agree that's the more reasonable course of action.

Iain

If another coder requests it, then you must start thinking deeper if this mod was really worth of releasing it. In anycase... I read carefully your opinion, I respect it, but let's give the other users the ability to share their own opinion. What counts for me, and what will makes me plan my next steps is depending on what the other users (and not you or your friends) will post here. I just offered a solution. Nothing more. What I want to make clear before closing the discussion with you, is something very simple. "I have nothing to loose". You're smart person that's why you're managing a big company, so you can easily get my meaning. Furthure more, as I seen in your last post in the mod's thread, you know a lot of Greek history. Hopefully you also know how Greeks reacts in similar issues.

Thank you for your time. As I said. Nothing against you (as a person), nothing against your company. But a lots against this mod.

What kind of thread is this why should it be coder against coder to prove a point weather right or wrong ..

i am sorry but until quite recently Chris i had no clue who the hell you really were or are .. but i have known dragonbyte for a lot of years and their proven track record speaks volumes i can go here at vb and at there site and the support is phenomenal..

what they put in there lite products is very close to a pro version again its all about the choices some mods i want more so i carry pro others the lite is more then what i need ..if ask the db team for something they always give you an answer and if its something they can do they do it ...

the copyright mod is a choice you either like it or dont put it in just like your classified mod you have members like it and have met some of there needs you also have a pro version called the grateful version but to me is same thing you are collecting money for compensation ...so the choice is install your mod or dont

you cant get any more clearer choices then that ...

i perfer dragonbyte mods over any other but that is my preference not to say i dont have any other mods on my site installed cause i do

so lets see the main theme of this thread is you dont like the copyright mod ...
well i dont like the color pink on my vesicle but they still produce pink ...

i dont like onions but they still grow them ... i think you get the picture

your right the cops didnt shackle me to come to this thread i did by my choice cause i feel you are in the wrong .. i get your feelings but there is not going to be any change cause of this thread ... you are going to go your way and db is going to go theirs ... i hope you choose not to continue this useless thread but is your choice

OK now that I see what the hullabaloo is all about, I have to agree with Chris on this one.

DBTech's copyright should not appear on another Mod's pages. The way it is now, it does.

As an example, the DBTech copyright is appearing on my Advanced Application Form pages. DBTech has no influence over those and the copyright should not appear on those pages.

I'd suggest DBTech make some change to only display their copyright on the standard vB pages, or on the vB pages that are actually affected by their mods. That is a simple THIS_SCRIPT query as Chris posted, but using only vB script names. That way all other mods that set the THIS_SCRIPT constant will not display the DBTech copyright.

Other coders should not be burdened with finding a way to remove the DBTech copyright from the footer of their mods.

EDIT: The attached image shows what I mean. Neither the DBTech slider or the post thanks mod can be used on the page shown. The DBTech copyright should not appear there.

I'd have to agree with that as well. If it was just a matter of the copyrights showing up on standard vb pages that aren't affected by the mod, then while that's not completely correct, it doesn't bother me too much. But IMHO it's not right to have them show up when the entire page is generated by another mod. It seems like the right thing to do would be for DBTech to do something about it.

ETA: By the way, this is just my personal opinion.

LOL... you're a moderator... you're not allowed personal opinions. :D (jk)

lol, yeah. The fact is that unless I'm saying something like "you're breaking the rules" then I always feel like I'm just speaking for myself, but I'm afraid it doesn't always come across that way.